The Prayer Issue Revived
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Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.
- The Pharaoh Dilemma
Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
NO COMMENT.
- The Divorce Loophole
We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.
Peace,
Rami
There are many prophets in the Torah. Which prophetic traditions are you relying on from the Torah when you say divorce should be so and so.
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Peace Rami,
Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.
Ummm... Okay...
- The Pharaoh Dilemma
Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
NO COMMENT.
rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )
- The Divorce Loophole
We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.
You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...
Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
Whether you admit it or not, is another story.PeAcE
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Peace c0de,
Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
Whether you admit it or not, is another story.Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...
Peace,
Ahmad
It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.
But if you feel it ok to repeat, then I shall toAn admissibility of its laws is not an admission of its perfection.
plus
Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.and also
@ Ahmed
Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 279"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.PeAcE
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Peace c0de,
It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.
And, like I've already stated several times, you haven't proven anything. Neither the Book of Kings or the Psalms are part of the Torah. So, if these contain errors, then what does this have to do with the sureness of the Torah itself? NOTHING... Also, you placed "quotation marks" around the word scripture, while we know in the Qur'aan, these markings are not there. So, how do you know the people were writing false "scripture"? And how do you know this was referring to the Torah? For all we know, this could be referring to the scribes writing 9128, 129 into the Qur'aan after Muhammad's death! There's no proof that any scribes literally wrote ANYTHING into the Torah scrolls themselves, and this is why they found it necessary to write extensive commentaries on the scriptures in the form of the Talmud.
Regarding the story of Solomon, this point has no relevance at all. The scriptures are talking about two completely different time periods and incidents, not the same one. While the Qur'aan gives a more "righteous and infallible" view of the prophets (in many instances), the Torah gives deeper insight into their righteous and wicked behaviors. This is why Jews adamantly refuse to acknowledge the infallibility of any Jewish prophets. This is different from the Qur'aan, especially considering the fact that many sectarian Muslims view the prophets as "perfect" and "sinless", a concept that is totally foreign in the Torah and Jewish history... Sure, the Qur'aan doesn't mention the transgression of Solomon. Big deal! It also doesn't mention the issue concerning David and Bathsheba. It doesn't mention the exodus and destruction of Jerusalem. It doesn't give the details regarding Jonas and his attempt to run away from G-d. It doesn't give insight regarding Elijah and Elisha, information that is of specific importance in Jewish history. In fact, it doesn't even relate which of Abraham's sons was placed on the altar (i.e. Ishmael or Isaac). It doesn't annotate the lineage of the mashiach, and it doesn't even give any details regarding the role of the mashiach at all. So, you're telling me that, just because these things, people, and incidents are directly mentioned in the Qur'aan, they never happened or existed?!
The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...
Peace,
Ahmad
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rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )
Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.
You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...
Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.
Peace,
Rami
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Another one on the house....
Exd 712 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
2065 They said O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down.
2066 He said No, you cast down. So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving.Mutually exclusive. The authors of Torah say Aaron is one who threw the rod and they believe in dark demonic powers creating things. In the Quran, the magicians rods appears to be like snakes but they can't be because the Spirit belongs to God. And Moses is the thrower.
Peace,
Rami
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@ Ahmed
Neither the Book of Kings or the Psalms are part of the Torah.
Actually, as you will see soon, the Torah itself contains errors in the form of contradictions with the Quran as well.
But first, let me remind you that I never said that the Book of Kings and the Psalms were part of the Torah, I said
they were part of the Tanakh, which you were earlier claiming as being without errors.... remember?First you said that only the Talmud contained errors, and the Tanakh was error free. Now you are (half) admitting
that the Tanakh AND talmud contain errors, but are still claiming that the Torah is error free... but you are still wrong.
ObserveSo, if these contain errors, then what does this have to do with the sureness of the Torah itself?
The Torah also contradicts the Quran, (in several places) and therefore it is automatically imperfect.
Just one example is the book of Exodus (215-22) versus the story in the Quran of
Moses PBUH fleeing from Egypt (Sura 2823-2. In Exodus, there were 7 women,
all daughters of the same man. In the Quran, there are 2 daughters.In Exodus, the agreement between the father and Moses PBUH is also absent, but
what is most interesting is that a similar agreement is mentioned in Genesis, but
this time the Prophet Jacob PBUH is mentioned. (Genesis 291-30). This discrepancy
fits in perfectly with the Quranic criticism of the Jews"Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say
We have heard and we disobey..."
The Quran Chapter 4 Verse 46The Jews and the Christians charge the Quran with being imperfect because of these
contradictions with the Torah. But we know that the version of events in the Quran
is perfect, while the Torah is not.Regarding the story of Solomon, this point has no relevance at all. The scriptures are talking about two completely different time periods and incidents, not the same one. While the Qur'aan gives a more "righteous and infallible" view of the prophets (in many instances), the Torah gives deeper insight into their righteous and wicked behaviors.
The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...
This is a major contradiction. The Quran and the Torah/Tanakh can not be equally correct because they both contradict
each other. We are not talking about details, we are talking about contradictions. So you have to decide which version you consider
more accurate. Solomon PBUH could not have been a heretic because he is redeemed and spoken of highly in the Quran. There were not
7 daughters, but 2. You either accept the supremacy of the Jewish scriptures, or the Quran. You can NOT claim that they are both equally
accurate.PeAcE
p.s. Rami has also provided you with further errors in the Torah itself.
All of which contradict the versions of the events in the Quran. -
Peace,
All these contradictions are benign. Now lets look at a very dangerous one! One that can literally destroy the world!
Deu 2320 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
4161 And for their taking of usury, while they were told not to do so, and for their consuming peoples money unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers amongst them a painful retribution.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.Muslims and Jews are destined to fight each other. The Jewish Forces that want to control the world via the usurious banking system are codenamed the NWO. While the opposing force that rejects usury are called the 'Terrorists' D. Fasten your seatbelt and prepare yourself for some unpretty fireworks.
Peace??
Rami
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The Jews don't really have anything to do with control of the NWO dude...
They are being played like everyone else. The banking elite don't really have
a religion... (unless you consider unadulterated materialism a "religion" (I do)).And Muslims and Jews are not destined to fight each other... The Israelis
and the Arabs are destined to fight each other... according to the dictates
of the 1922 settlement created by the imperial powers... The coming wars
have nothing to do with religion... just wanted to make that clear.There are no "good" sides here. The Muslims today are just as much part of
the system as anyone else. -
Peace Rami,
Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.
Ummm... Okay, what does this prove? Because the Torah doesn't mention the name of the Pharaoh, this makes the complete account fabricated? You've gotta be kidding me, man... This is not "heresy" at all, and it's just a lack of information. The Qur'aan doesn't mention the Pharaoh's name either, nor does it mention Melchizedek at all. Pharaoh wasn't used as a name in the Torah, it's a title. Therefore, there's a pharaoh. After he dies, his successor becomes... ANOTHER PHARAOH, and then another one. The title of "pharaoh" is NEVER used anywhere as a name, it's used as a title...
Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.
This is another addition added into the Gemarra and placed in the Rabbinical Talmud. It doesn't appear in the Torah...
Another one on the house....
Exd 712 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
2065 They said ?O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down.?
2066 He said ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving.Mutually exclusive. The authors of Torah say Aaron is one who threw the rod and they believe in dark demonic powers creating things. In the Quran, the magicians rods appears to be like snakes but they can't be because the Spirit belongs to God. And Moses is the thrower.
This must be a joke... In the Biblical account, Moses is the thrower, and nothing says that Aaron threw down the rod. It simply says that the rod originally belonged to Aaron, and it was passed along to Moses... The aspect of the rods "transforming" into (or appearing to be) serpents is not a contradiction at all. The Qur'aan says the same thing. It just emphasizes that their rods were still RODS, not actual serpents, regardless of what they looked like. The account it the same in both books...
All these contradictions are benign. Now lets look at a very dangerous one! One that can literally destroy the world!
Deu 2320 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
4161 And for their taking of usury, while they were told not to do so, and for their consuming people?s money unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers amongst them a painful retribution.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.This is not a contradiction. The Jews were condemned for usury against their own people, which is emphasized in the Qur'aan. This is why the Qur'aan encourages them to 'GIVE UP' their usury towards the Gentiles, since these previously were not forbidden... I don't know what your view of the "NWO" and the end of the world is, but it sounds like it's built on a political conspiracy theory, most of which are completely absurd and illogical.
Peace,
Ahmad
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The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...
Peace,
Ahmad
I mostly agree quran leaves out a lot of information because it was only sent to restore the true message. If the quran doesn't say otherwise, we must believe the torah. Quran is from a GOD perspective not a gentile ). Solomon isn't appeared infallible, He got so addicted with horses he missed his prayer time.
Peace
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The Jews and the Christians charge the Quran with being imperfect because of these
contradictions with the Torah. But we know that the version of events in the Quran
is perfect, while the Torah is not.Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran
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Ummm... Okay, what does this prove? Because the Torah doesn't mention the name of the Pharaoh, this makes the complete account fabricated? You've gotta be kidding me, man... This is not "heresy" at all, and it's just a lack of information. The Qur'aan doesn't mention the Pharaoh's name either, nor does it mention Melchizedek at all. Pharaoh wasn't used as a name in the Torah, it's a title. Therefore, there's a pharaoh. After he dies, his successor becomes... ANOTHER PHARAOH, and then another one. The title of "pharaoh" is NEVER used anywhere as a name, it's used as a title...
It seems that you don't understand what I am talking about at all. There is no such thing as 'a' Pharaoh or 'the' Pharaoh. I am not talking about archaeology either. Pharaoh is used in both scriptures as a proper noun like Michael, Arbaham, Moses etc. If Pharaoh is a title, it should say THE Pharaoh or the Pharaoh of Egypt. Check out this
http//www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6547
They admit it is used nakedly as a proper noun. Need I say more?
This is another addition added into the Gemarra and placed in the Rabbinical Talmud. It doesn't appear in the Torah...
Which means the loophole is official. Thank you.
This must be a joke... In the Biblical account, Moses is the thrower, and nothing says that Aaron threw down the rod. It simply says that the rod originally belonged to Aaron, and it was passed along to Moses... The aspect of the rods "transforming" into (or appearing to be) serpents is not a contradiction at all. The Qur'aan says the same thing. It just emphasizes that their rods were still RODS, not actual serpents, regardless of what they looked like. The account it the same in both books...
You are kidding. Right?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNjL9vUXB4&NR=1This is not a contradiction. The Jews were condemned for usury against their own people, which is emphasized in the Qur'aan. This is why the Qur'aan encourages them to 'GIVE UP' their usury towards the Gentiles, since these previously were not forbidden... I don't know what your view of the "NWO" and the end of the world is, but it sounds like it's built on a political conspiracy theory, most of which are completely absurd and illogical.
The Quran orders the people of Mohammed to give up usury. So now the Quran is changing the Torah and commanding the Jews not to charge interest on the gentiles. the Jews ofcourse won't comply as per Torah. So we have war, theoritically speaking. I know there is no such thing as NWO, it is just a war on resources. Oil and water. It is not really about religion. But the Islamic economic system is threatening to Western capitalistic economies. It won't be pretty later on. It is not a conspiracy at all, it is simply Real Politik. The struggle for monoply and power will never end.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace RT,
I mostly agree quran leaves out a lot of information because it was only sent to restore the true message. If the quran doesn't say otherwise, we must believe the torah. Quran is from a GOD perspective not a gentile ). Solomon isn't appeared infallible, He got so addicted with horses he missed his prayer time.
I agree with you, and I didn't mean to imply that the Qur'aan is from a Gentile perspective. I meant to say the main targeted audience of the Qur'aan were non-Jews... And I forgot to mention that detail about Solomon neglecting the salaat obervance because he was preoccupied with horses. Thanks for bringing this up...
Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran
I completely agree.
Peace,
Ahmad
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But the Islamic economic system is threatening to Western capitalistic economies. It won't be pretty later on. It is not a conspiracy at all, it is simply Real Politik. The struggle for monoply and power will never end.
Peace,
Rami
Salaam
Exactly; this is what I too always believed that the Islamic way of life would simply demolish Modern Capitalism, wihich is based on continious consupmtion, making money out of desires and a banking system to keep eveyone constantly in debt so the most important concern of a man would be not to lose his mortgaged house, which in turn make people conformist.
peace -
The Torah discusses the prohibition against taking interest in many places Exodus 2224; Leviticus 2536-37; and Deuteronomy 2320-21. (See also Ezekiel 188-17; 2212; Psalms 155; and Proverbs 28. Here is the biggest problem people have here. They do not understand that the Torah is not just Moses's teachings. It spans several centuries. It is refered to as the Torah because thats what people call it. There are also many scriptures not included in the Biblical collections of today but were in the past and many of the items there are included in the Koran. Catholic Bible also have scriptures not found in King James. The dead sea scroll also contained scriptures the Bible collectors did not compile for various reasons including their desire to have a chronological order of the scriptures.
Watch the documentary "banned from the Bible" in video google. They will show you verses in the Koran confirming material in the so called banned scriptures and give some reasons why some of these scriptures were not included in the Bible collection. Also the Ethopian Church included some scriptures not found in King James as it was not accepted. Banned in the Bible gives good undertsanding of the logic used in Bible collection and inclusion and many of the time it was due to convenience. But one thing Christians unanimously did was to only debate earlier written scriptures and they all refused the oral traditions, unlike Judaism or Islam which took the oral traditions and then abrogated the written scriptures due to their desire to manufacture a legal framework.Anyways the view of usury of Ahmad Subhi Mansour is very similar to the Torah quote. Riba is to be done in business transactions and not personal lives and should be done to those who can afford it and not those who are desperate and seek loan not to run an enterprise or project but because they are desperate. Another worlds usury should not be exploitative.
The previous scriptures must be read with an undertsanding of its structure and historic lay out. The Koran deals with some issues that could only be understood in some cases by 7th century Medina realities since that is the time period it came down. And you can easily see that when you read some passages of the Koran. The Torah and the other scriptures in the OT spans literally hundreds and hundreds of years including many prophets and their teachings.
Even the Book of Jeremiah differs as to what Jeremiah preached in Jerusalem and what he preached in Babylon because the situations now differed. Does not the Koran also talk about different issues in Mecca and Medina?
No the opening paragraph I got from a Jewish website, but I did not include the whole material, you know why? Here is how it actually reads
The Torah discusses the prohibition against taking interest in many places Exodus 2224; Leviticus 2536-37; and Deuteronomy 2320-21. (See also Ezekiel 188-17; 2212; Psalms 155; and Proverbs 28.
As is the case with most laws of the Torah, to gain a full understanding of the laws of ribit (usury) it is necessary to study the topic as it is explained on the Oral Law. The laws of ribit are discussed at length in the Code of Jewish Law, Yoreh De'ah 159-177. As is the case with most laws of the Torah, to gain a full understanding of the laws of ribit (usury) it is necessary to study the topic as it is explained on the Oral Law
http//www.askmoses.com/en/article/256,328/Can-I-find-the-laws-of-usury-in-the-Old-Testament.html
And that my friend is Sunni/Shia Islam in action.
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Peace all,
Read the following verses and you will know that most of the OT is written by the Babylonians priests and the adversaries of Solomon.
2101 And when a messenger came to them from God, authenticating what was with them, a group of those who had already received the scripture placed Gods scripture behind their backs as if they did not know.
2102 And they followed what the devils(adversaries) recited regarding Solomons kingship. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils that rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say We are a test, so do not lose faith! Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except by Gods permission. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!Bingo, Solomon DID NOT reject. The adversaries of Solomon would want to paint that Solomon rejected as painted in the OT.
Peace,
Rami
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@ RT + Bigmo + Ahmed
Salaam Brothers , this is a collective response to all.
Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran
I never said that Muslims should not acquire knowledge of the Torah. But we should never
give the accounts in the Torah MORE PRIORITY then the Quran. There are 2 reasons for this.
One of them is historical (academic), and the other is religious (from the Muslim perspective)-
The Torah (five books, of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) whose author
the Jews say (I checked) was Moses (pbuh) himself, is academically analyzed to have been compiled in the
Persian period (500-300 BCE) which means that it was compiled something like a 1000 years after
the death of its author. (look it up yourself, don't take my word for it). While the Quran was written
under the supervision of the Prophet and codified within the same generation. -
There has also been irrefutable proof provided that the version of events in the Torah
contradicts the Quran. Which proves (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that the two scriptures can not
simultaneously be the direct word of God, and one of them is more accurate then the other. And since we
Muslims are obligated to believe in the Quran's supremacy, we must believe in the version of events in the Quran,
as basic article of faith. And therefore, everything in the Torah+Tanakh+Talmud which goes against the Quran
must be rejected immediately as a fabrication.
It is not a matter of the Torah being more detailed at all, that has nothing to do with it. Remember, Solomon PBUH was a Muslim
before he was a Semite. Therefore, the Muslims have more of a right to the Judaic prophets then the Jews themselves. This is why
the Quran redeems their image, as the Jews maligned their own prophets through adding fabrications in their scriptures. So
Solomon pbuh was not a heretic, David pbuh was not a murderer, Noah pbuh was not a drunk, and Lot pbuh did not commit incest!
(Do you see a pattern here?) These events are not conveniently ignored by God in the Quran because the Torah is allegedly more
detailed. They are ignored because they DID NOT OCCUR, and instead the Jews are charged with fabricating these things against
their prophets, and this is why the Quran retells the stories of these prophets and their work, to redeem them.This is why the arguments which have been based in the Torah are not valid in an Islamic discussion
because the Torah can not be used as a foundation for any Islamic argument. We know for a fact that the Torah
is no more authentic then the hadith (historically speaking). In fact it is less authentic, because there are books
of the hadith (like the Muwatta, of Imaam Maliki) which were compiled only 150 years after the Prophet, while the
Torah was compiled a 1000 years after Moses (pbuh). So if you want to have an Islamic discussion without the hadith,
(because the hadith is unauthentic) then you must also, by the same argument, disregard other inauthentic
texts such as the Torah. As much as I hate this saying, it is applicable "you can't have your cake and eat it too"PeAcE
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