The Prayer Issue Revived
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Peace c0de,
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
Are you sure this is what it's talking about, the Tanakh and not the Gemarra?
In actuality, it's talking about the Gemarra, the rabbinic commentary on the scriptures. This is why it mentions people spreading sorcery throughout the land of Babylon, a reference that's not mentioned ANYWHERE AT ALL in the Tanakh. It is, however, mentioned in the Talmud, but with a different idea concerning it. Rather than basing the origination of it's spread on two people (angels/"malaykayn" or kings/"malikayn", the Talmud references it as an entire body of people teaching this paganism, without mentioning who or what specifically started it. The Gemarra makes an implication that Solomon gave in to practicing this sorcery, leading him into idolatry, a concept that the Qur'aan blatantly rejects. But nothing about this incident is mentioned in the Tanakh at all, and the passage in the Book of Kings is talking about a completely different time and issue, alleging that Solomon gave in to paganism due to the pressure from one of his many concubines.
So, again, you're WRONG. The Qur'aan never alleges that the Torah is forged or corrupted. If it does, please provide a reference to support your claim...
The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I agree. The "New Testament" is a forgery, and it's not a scripture at all. None of it is divinely inspired, and nearly ever "book" originated as a letter from someone (mostly from Paul) to the newly developed Christian congregations throughout the region. None of them were intended to be used as authentic scriptures... And, of course as you mentioned, the Qur'aan speaks of the Injeel being sent down to Jesus, not written by his followers. Therefore, it's safe to presume that the Biblical canon does NOT contain the Injeel at all, at least not in it's true scriptural form...
I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.What exactly do you mean when you reference the Torah? Are you speaking about the Pentateuch, or are you talking about the entire "Old Testament"? In Judaism, the Torah contains the Biblical books of (what Christians call) Genesis through Deuteronomy. The other books are split into their respective catagories, "Neviim" (Prophets) and "Ketuviim" (Writings), and these are what make up the Tanakh (or Mikra)... The Psalms are not part of the Torah, they are part of the Tanakh (i.e. in the Ketuviim).
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.Posted where? Your "proof" has been disproven... Please provide some evidence...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
The Qur'aan says that it "musaddiqan limaa bayna yadayhe" (confirms the previous scriptures), which includes verifying and authenticating them. In order for this to be the case, the previous scriptures must be accurately preserved... Now, you've raised a very good question What's the purpose of the Qur'aan if the previous scriptures are uncorrupted?
In Christianity, the doctrines are based on manmade books and letters. None of these can accurately be called "divinely inspired", not by a long stretch. It's different, however, in Judaism. The Torah was actually authored by G-d Himself, and the knowledge and wisdom contained in the scripture is sound and reasonable... So, why the Qur'aan? Because Jewish teachings have changed, not the scriptures. Jews were condemned for trading G-d's scripture for a "cheap price", the wisdom of rabbis. That's why many of them, especially Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, place the Gemarra (Talmud) above the Torah, which is considered the actual word of G-d Almighty! The purpose of the Qur'aan is to lead the people back to the true teachings of G-d, telling them to abandon their idols and worship G-d alone.
I do understand your perspective, and G-d is the most knowledgeable. May He guide us all to the truth and the straight path...
Peace and best wishes,
Ahmad
Peace be unto you, Ahmad,
I appreciate this insight. I am unfamiliar with the Jewish faith, coming from Christianity to Al-Islam. This is helpful in my studies and I will pray for guidance.
If I were to do a video series on the corruption of the Jewish faith, would you be a resource I could possibly tap into? I am currently working on a series on Church doctrine corruption and Islam, and hope to finish them in the next couple of months, insha'Allah. This would wrap up the series completely.
Peace and blessings.
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Are you sure this is what it's talking about, the Tanakh and not the Gemarra?
Actually bro, it is very clear that it is the Tanakh which is being talked about, examine these verses
the wives of Solomon PBUH "turned away his heart after other gods" 1 Kings 114
And later on
"The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. 11 So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. 12 Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."
This passage in the Book of Kings is charging Solomon with heresy and God
punishing his entire kingdom. But the Quran clearly contradicts this and
calls this a fabrication. Not only does God redeem his character, but also the
reputation of his entire kingdom and his rule which is maligned in the Tanakh"And they followed what the devils fabricated against the Kingdom of Solomon.
And Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved..."
The Quran 2102It is made clear in the Quran that God did NOT reject Solomon PBUH
and God did not "tear away" the Kingdom from Solomon, and these
are fabrications against the Kingdom of Solomon. This prophet of God
is mentioned many times in the Quran and nowhere is Allah displeased
with him. The same is the story with other prophets who have been
maligned in the Tanakh, but find redemption through the Quran.
The Quran must always be given priority when looking at previous
scriptures brother.PeAcE
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... again with this passive aggressiveness... nope
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
I see your point, but you are mistaken. The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.However, this does not mean that the Torah has stayed perfectly preserved like the Quran.
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.PeAcE
The Torah in the Koran is talking about the Old Testament, it includes many Books including the Psalms and Books from the days of Abraham and onward. It spans several centuries. The Old Testament is a library of Books. It is not be understood the way the Koran does but it is a Book of guidance and light. Also I do not see what this big deal about Paul is? The Koran was concerned with the Divinity of Jesus, Paul has nothing to do with that. The Gospel does not preach the Divinity of Jesus and the Old Testament also does not teach that.
THE QURAN CONFIRMS TODAY'S BIBLE IS UNCHANGED
By A. Ibrahim
Muslims and Christians believe in the infallibility of the original Biblical manuscripts. But many adherents of Islam think that today's Bible has undergone substantial changes with regard to its early manuscripts and their translated versions. However, the Quran does not support this claim unanimously! In fact it makes it clear that the Bible, known as the Torah and the Injil, was found reliable in Muhammad's (p.b.u.h) time, the sixth century. To prove that the twentieth century Bible is still authentic it only has to be compared with a copy from the sixth century.
All quotations are taken from "The Meaning of the Holy Quran" translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and published by Armana Corporation, U.S.A., 1989.
Because of a lack of space it has not always been possible to print whole verses. The reader is encouraged to look up the references and their contexts in either the Quran or the Bible.
THE TESTIMONY OF THE QURAN ABOUT THE RELIABILITY OF THE BIBLE
1.)
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
"Those who have been reading the book from before thee" are Jews and Christians who read the Torah and the Injil (Gospel)! If they were reading corrupted holy books, their minds would have been influenced by many misconceptions. It would therefore make no sense for Allah to command those who are in doubt to ask Jews and Christians who allegedly were mislead by changed Scriptures! In order to follow the mandate in this verse it is absolutely necessary to believe that the Scriptures before Islam are uncorrupted!Here the question may be asked "Are what is known as the Torah and the Injil in Muhammad's (p.b.u.h.) time identical with today's Bible that contains the Old and the New Testament?" Regarding the Injil an affirming answer has already been given in "The History of the Quran and the Injil." The Old Testament too is identical with the Torah as seen from the following reasoning
The Hebrew word "Torah" means literally "law", "instruction". It refers to the revelations given to Moses. "The term was often applied to the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament, e.g. 1 Chronicles 1640) as a whole; and as the importance of the Prophets and Writings grew, it was sometimes used to describe them all as divinely revealed instructions and traditions." ("Dictionary of Beliefs and Religions" by Rosemary Goring, Wordsworth Editions Ltd, 1995)
Evidence from the Bible
Sometimes when the law is spoken of in the Injil, the New Testament, it is used in the all including sense. In Romans 3 Paul quotes verses from the book of Psalms and from the Prophets but then he concludes in verse 19 with, "what the law (Torah) says..." (See also 1 Cor. 1421)
Jesus himself referred to the Psalms as "the law (Torah)" in John 1034. Another example is found in John 1234 where the Jews speak of verses from Psalms 8936, Isaiah 97, and Daniel 714 as "the law (Torah)".
In the Quran too the meaning of "Torah" where all 39 books of the Old Testament are included is used. This becomes clear when one looks at the evidence found in the Quran, and in history
Evidence from the Quran
Several verses in the Quran bear witness to the truth that the Torah was unchanged at the time of Jesus.
In Surah 19, Maryam, verse 12, Yahya, who lived at the time of Jesus was told "to take hold of the Book, (the Torah)."
Surah 3, Ali'Imran, verse 48 tells us that Jesus was also taught in the Torah.
Numerous verses, such as Surah 34, Saba, verse 31, Surah 35, Fatir, verse 31, attest to the truth that the Torah was uncorrupted in the time of Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) in the sixth century A.D. The Arabic phrase "bain yadaihi" which is used in these references to the Torah literally means "between his hands". Dr. W. Campbell writes in his book "The Quran and the Bible in the light of history and science", (Middle East Resources, 1994, page 37) "...usually it is an idiom for "in his presence", or "in his power", or "in his possession," or "at his disposal..."(see also Surah 34, Saba', verse 12)
In the Quran some Jewish contemporaries of Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) are called "those who guide and do justice in the light of truth," besides many others whose reputation was not so favorable in the sixth century. (Surah 7, Al Araf, verse 159, see also Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 66) The very fact that they were commended so highly shows that they were in possession of the uncorrupted Torah. History tells us what was part of it.
Evidence from history
Like in the case of the Injil, the New Testament, the formation of an official list (canon) of the books that were part of it took a considerable time. When finally an official list was approved it was done so in defense against a growing number of heretical writings. The official list merely confirmed what had been accepted by the Jews centuries before. Then it was unnecessary because there was a common agreement as to which writings were part of the Torah.
After giving nine solid reasons for an early formation of the canon of the Old Testament, the authors of "An Introduction to the new Testament" (by D. Carson, D.J. Moo, L. Morris, Apollos, 1992, pages 491-92) conclude saying, "It appears, then, that there is adequate evidence to support the view that there was a (closed) canon of Scripture to serve as a model in the formation of the New Testament canon. Even if this point be disputed, there is entirely convincing evidence that the Torah (here meaning the Pentateuch) and the Prophets were viewed as closed collections by the first century A.D."
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (by F.F.Bruce, 1980, IVP, Leicester) concludes an extensive research by saying that the whole Hebrew Bible canon as we know it today existed around 200 B.C.
2.)
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say,"Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth." (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 93)
In this specific incident the Jews are asked to bring their own Law, the Torah. They are commanded by God to study it in order to find the right answer to a particular question. Maududi, the renowned Islamic scholar, said, that it addressed the difference between Muslims and Jews in regard to eating the meat of camels, hares and coneys. In opposition to Islam, Judaism prohibits the eating of them according to today's Torah (Deuteronomy 147). "But, the open challenge of the Quran to them to bring the Torah in proof thereof shows that the commandments referred to above did not exist in the Torah at that time and were inserted afterwards; otherwise the Jews would have at once accepted the challenge of the Quran and presented the commandments thereof." (See, "The meaning of the Quran", Vol. I, 12th Edition 1992, by S. Abdul Maududi, Islamic Publications (Pvt) LTD., Pakistan, comment on Surah 6, Al-Anam, verse 145, (hereafter referred to as "Maududi"This view is problematic because it ignores the fact that today's English translations of the Torah, such as the N.I.V., are based on the Masoretic text the standard edition of the Hebrew Old Testament. It was prepared by Jewish scholars, called Masoretes, mainly from 500 to the 950 A.D. They introduced vowel points into the consonantal (consonants only) Hebrew text. They also studied each letter, word and phrase and wrote marginal notes commenting on proper grammar and spelling. (See, "The World Book Encyclopedia", Volume 2, 1982, U.S.A., page 222b
Furthermore the translators compared it with a number of other sources still in existence today, the most important of which are
The Dead Sea Scrolls, written in Hebrew at about 100 B.C., discovered in the late 1940's and early 1950's in Palestine. "Among the fragments discovered are complete copies or parts of every Old Testament book except Esther, and the variations in the text after a thousand years of copying are minimal." (See, "Answers to Tough Questions", by Josh Mc Dowell and Don Stewart, 1980, U.S.A.)
The Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, at about 250 B.C.
The Syriac Peshitta, a translation of the whole Bible into the common language of certain parts of Syria, from either the first or second century A.D.
The Vulgate, the entire Bible translated into Latin at about 400 A.D.
In none of the above sources is Deuteronomy 147, the verse under consideration, missing! Looking at all the evidence one can impossibly say that it was missing in the prophet of Islam's time and only later inserted into the text!
Rest of the article here
http//www.arabicbible.com/islam/bible.htm
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@ Bigmo
The admissibility of their laws is not an admission of their perfection.
Another example According to Psalm 136, Pharaoh was drowned with his army
in the Red Sea. But according to the Quran Pharaoh was spared to be made
an example of for all to see. And today, his mummified body rests in a museum.
This is further proof that the Tanakh contains errors, while the Quran is perfect.More conclusive proof from the Quran
...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446PeAcE
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Peace everyone,
I made a mistake in my earlier post. It is actually the other way around.
The wordings used for dawn and dusk salaats are as follows (245
Salaat al-fajr (salaat of dawn - NO AL BEFORE SALAAT)
Salaat al-3isha (salaat of dusk - NO AL BEFORE SALAAT)This phrase without AL has been used for the timed salaats.
The wording used in 2238 is as follows
AL-salaat al-wusta (THE BEST/BALANCED SALAAT)
This wusta in this phrase is an adjective due to the wording and describes salaat.
As everyone can see, the wordings used are different for the timed salaats and al-salaat al-wusta, so the latter CANNOT BE REFERRING TO A SEPARATE TIMED SALAAT. This is grammatically UNARGUABLE.
Secondly, if AL-salaat al-wusta refers to a middle salaat then
WHICH SALAAT IS THE MIDDLE SALAAT ACCORDING TO THE QUR'AAN?
God forgot to mention that right? The qur'aan is incomplete and not fully detailed right? Because of this people are arguing and divided in two groups; one says the middle is noon and the other says the middle is middle of night. brickwall
IS THE MIDDLE NOON OR NIGHT AND WHY?
Again God forgot and the qur'aan is not fully detailed right?
Thirdly, in 2238, salawaat already covers all the salaats and then mentioning a separate timed salaat is redundant.
Again God is a fool and does not know redundancies right?
Salawaat refers to ALL the salaats in one's lifetime, and EACH OF THOSE SALAATS SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED IN THE BEST/BALANCED MANNER. That is what 2238 is telling us and this does not cause any redundancies.
The words "alsalaat" are mentioned in reference to THREE distinct times (1) faajr, (2) esha, and (3) wusta.
WRONG !!
There is no AL before salaat al-fajr and salaat al-isha. Please see above.
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Peace c0de,
"And they followed what the devils fabricated against the Kingdom of Solomon.
And Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved..."
The Quran 2102C'mon, bro - mistranslations are only making your argument weaker... The Qur'aanic passage doesn't say anything about fabrications, and it doesn't say that this was directed towards the Jews. The actual passage speaks about the devils RECITING certain things in Solomon's kingdom, which the people adhered to but Solomon rejected. What were these "devils" reciting? The rest of the verse makes it clear that it's talking about teachings of sorcery that started spreading throughout the land. This concept is NOT MENTIONED in the Tanakh at all, and you're completely wrong. These are talking about two completely different events at two completely different times... Once again, you STILL haven't pointed out anything in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah was corrupted. Until you do so, you have no proof for your outrageous claim...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace everyone,
I would like to draw the attention of the readers to the continued manipulation of the word of God and twisting it intentionally by someone on this thread.
This person is putting forth the argument that al-masjid al-haram means "sacred" mosque, and then implying that it is in mecca as used in the qur'aan.
HOW CAN HARAM BE TRANSLATED AS SACRED? Is that not twisting God's words?
The word for sacred is "moqaddas". Haram means "inviolable" or "restricted".
Secondly, God did mention the word "makkah" in the qur'aan once, in context of a war. NOWHERE did He say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah.
There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in a place by the name of Makkah. Even if we go by the fabricated sectarian historical documents, there was no mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in Makkah around the so called Kaaba when the prophet allegedly migrated from there. He did not allegedly come back to Makkah until after Makkah was conquered and only then he could have built any kind of mosque there but the order for changing the qiblah came before that, so how could he have faced some non-existent mosque in Makkah when that order came?
The FACT is that NOWHERE in the qur'aan does God say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah. Al-masjid al-haraam means "the inviolable institution of obedience" as used in the qur'aan and cannot mean a physical building as used in the qur'aan. The qur'aan DIRECTLY tells us that al-masjid al-haraam is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". We are supposed to face the truth from our Lord wherever we are; that is make obedience of God as our target/goal/qiblah wherever we are. Also, the people of the book know al-masjid al-haraam just like their own children. The Jews and the Christians never knew a so called "restricted temple" in Makkah. This has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum before.
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
Here, grammatically, "it" refers to "al-masjid al-haraam".
2146 Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
Firstly, there is no mention of salaat in the context of the al-masjid al-haraam being the qiblah verses. So facing al-masjid al-haraam is not ONLY during salaat.
Secondly, if it is a physical building, then how can we face it WHEREVER WE ARE or WHEREVER WE GO OUT as per the following
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.Suppose you are driving North towards Canada from USA, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.
Suppose you are sitting in front of your computer at home or in front of TV in USA facing North, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.
INFACT, WE ARE TOLD THAT GOD IS EVERYWHERE, SO IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER WE TURN EAST OR WEST. SO PHYSICAL DIRECTION IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing,
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west,............................
An excellent relevant post about Makkah
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597942.0
The other thing I would like to draw the readers attention to is another case of manipulating and twisting God's words. Someone here earlier said that athqaan means face because chins are part of face wow
HOW MUCH MORE CAN SOMEONE TWIST AND MANIPULATE THE WORDS OF GOD?
Using the same logic, athqaan can also mean legs, or arms, or chest, because chins are part of the body which includes all those.
UNBELIEVABLE. HOW LOW CAN PEOPLE STOOP TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND THEIR FOREFATHERS PRACTICES OVER THE WORD OF THE GOD?
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Ahmed + Truthseeker
@ Ahmed
Salaam bro
and it doesn't say that this was directed towards the Jews. The actual passage speaks about the devils RECITING certain things in Solomon's kingdom, which the people adhered to but Solomon rejected.
The actual act which Solomon PBUH is accused of in the Book of Kings is heresy and disbelief.
And the Quranic verse which redeems Solomon PBUH exactly counters this very claim. Your argument
that they are two separate incidents is only an assertion, and an illogical one. Why would God redeem
Solomon PBUH in the Quran if he was a heretic? Does that make sense to you?The Qur'aanic passage doesn't say anything about fabrications,
I have now provided you with 3 verses which use exactly that word forged/fabricated.
And not with their "mouths" either, as you claimed earlier, but their hands i.e. written scripture,
and not "oral commentaries".@ Ahmed
HOW CAN HARAM BE TRANSLATED AS SACRED? Is that not twisting God's words?
The word for sacred is "moqaddas". Haram means "inviolable" or "restricted".
Actually, all of these words you used, are synonyms of each other.
Here is a thesaurus. Scroll downhttp//thesaurus.reference.com/browse/sacred?qsrc=2890
An excellent relevant post about Makkah
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597942.0
The "Quran alone" movement along with these Christian arguments that
the "valley of Bacca" mentioned in the Bible is not referring to Mecca, (and
that Abraham PBUH never travelled to Mecca) is falsified by historical records
even the orientalist William Muir cites Diodorus Siculus (1st century Greek historian)
"there is in this country a temple greatly revered by the Arabs" (Life of Mahomet).Their entire argument is founded on the claim that Mecca only gained religious
importance after the 7th century BCE. But this is not true. Mecca was known as
a spiritual center well before the Prophet PBUH was born, and since time immemorial.
i.e. this is the place referred to in numerous places in the Quran such as 2125
where the command to pray is explicitly connected with the "place of Abraham"
and God calls this His own house, and ordains it for a place of pilgrimage.There is absolutley no evidence that the "Quran Alone" movement has provided (ever) that the early
Muslims, during the time of Muhammed PBUH, ever faced any other direction other then Mecca while praying
once the verse proclaiming its importance was revealed. Therefore, their entire argument is based on speculation.Just as a side note, in the Quran Abraham PBUH asked God that "Bakkah" become a city of peace.
Now interestingly enough, Jeruselum actually translates into "city of peace" but in reality, Jeruselum
has always been a city of blood, and continues to be a focal point of war even today (as it always was).
While Mecca has always been a peaceful, "sacred/restricted" place, and it continues to be completely
peaceful today. Even when it is controlled by the crazy wahhabis.NOWHERE did He say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah.
Actually the Kabbah at Mecca is referred to by several names, but all of them refer to
the same place. The fact is that everyone already knows the Kabbah is Masjid al-Haram.Salawaat refers to ALL the salaats in one's lifetime, and EACH OF THOSE SALAATS SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED IN THE BEST/BALANCED MANNER. That is what 2238 is telling us and this does not cause any redundancies..
There is a major contradiction in your argument. If God telling us to establish all our prayers in
the best manner, then this implies that a manner/method exists and must be followed, which
also implies that salat is not some abstract idealic concept but has a form and a method.All of this still does not refute the evidence for the 5 separate times mentioned in the Quran
which cover the 5 established prayer timings today. And as for the argument that different
words are used for different times, I would remind you that the Quran uses many different
words to refer to the same things many times. God himself is called by different names
in the Quran, this doesn't mean that the Quran is talking about different gods! The same
is true for the salat and the Kabbah which have both been called in the Quran multiple times
using different words.Someone here earlier said that athqaan means face because chins are part of face
Wrong. Now you are the one who is twisting my words.
I only said that the translations of the Quran which have
translated the verse using the word "face" are technically
accurate, because the chin is part of the face. I never said
the word chin=face.PeAcE
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Peace be unto you, brothers and sisters,
Peace be unto you, truthseeker11,
I believe this is from my recent post under the 'Sacred Mosque/Farthest Mosque'. If so, please take this to that forum so others may see the Surahs and enjoin in prayer and study as they seek guidance from God. This will be the last time I respond to this in this thread. As well, I do not appreciate the side-ways attack given in a totally different thread. I have not treated anyone in a rude or malicious manner to my knowledge (except the pedophiles and I won't rescind it.) We are brothers and sisters seeking God. Please act accordingly. If I am making assumptions, please accept my humble apologies.
Yet I do have to ask Why is your reaction so violent to this declaration?
Let me be clear. I am just a man who worships God and only God. I am striving to follow the righteous path. I am not some pure-hearted soul who is being visited by Gabriel or any other manifestation of the unseen. I am only doing as I am directed in the Quran Praying to and worshipping God daily, studying the Quran daily, and doing good deeds (as best I can). I killed my television set and spend that time instead in the pages of the Quran. Best time investment yet.
"The Safa and the Marwah are truly among the signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them. And whoever does good spontaneously - surely Allah is Bountiful in rewarding, Knowing." Surah 2158
God is All Knowing, Omniscient, the Creator and Lord of the worlds. In God all things are possible. God sent the Quran as a guidance for man, not as a tool to confuse and deceive. Surah 426
"The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship." Surah 12106
It is a warning most here heed, which is why for many of us, facing an object in prayer is abhorrent.
Again, I only post what my belief is based off of patient prayer and study. No man or woman should take what I say for Truth until they too have prayed to God for guidance and sought the Truth in the Quran for themselves. You can also see how I have progressed down this path and admitted I was wrong in previous posts concerning not facing Masjid Al-Haram. If I have erred, I have complete and utter faith God will chastise me and show me the Truth in the Quran, and I will ask for forgiveness and ensure everyone here knows my error. Surah 417
It is complete, the only guidance, and easy to read and remember if you believe. Surah 373, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 7750Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran
7146, 1745, 1857, 4144The above Surahs are why I must patiently pray and study the Quran daily, while doing the good deeds God requires of us. If I do not believe with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength, all my mind, I will not find the Truth. I must change my life to suit God, not my own desires. I do not want to face the Fire. Contrary to Christian belief, it is not a brief incident. Surah 279-80
Muhammad's duty is clear.
?The duty of the Messenger is only to deliver (the message). And Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.? Surah 599God tells the believers 3 times to face Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2144, 149, 150.
God tells the believers 3 times this is truth from Him, so be not of the doubters. Surah 2144, 147, 149This is one of the hardest tests from our Lord for a reason. It places our complete and utter faith in God and God alone. Not men, only God.
Bear witness As Muhammad feared the punishment of Judgement in disobeying his Lord, so too do I fear disobeying my Lord, God. Surah 1015
I came this close ] to the Fire as a Christian. After being guided to the Quran, I would be a madman or a fool to turn on my heel and disobey God. &We are also warned that a party surely conceal the truth while they know. Surah 2146
We are told to share what we know, and not hide it. Surah 242
As well, we are told in no uncertain terms what happens if we are lying or conceal what the Book reveals. Surah 2174-176
Masjid Al-Haram is named, as is Masjid Al-Aqsa. The Sacred House is Al-Kabah. If the Kaaba was the First House, was it not a qiblah? Surah 2125
Surah 2225-33,36,73 595,97, 2125,127,142-150, 396, 1437, 728,31,73, 91,17,19-22,28, 171,81, 3449, 1051To say Masjid Al-Haram did not exist in Muhammad's time would beg to ask why God told Muhammad to keep the idolators away 'after this year of theirs'. Surah 928
More on this in Surahs 917-19, 28-29.If God, in His All Knowing, Omniscient nature, put in Masjid Al-Haram in the Quran, and that structure stands today, why would I doubt the truth from my Lord?
Especially if it is now partially covering the small mountains of Safa and Marwa.
Especially if the Kaaba is contained within.If I am a believer, who am I going to believe? God or man? Easy answer.
God gives me proof in the Quran.
Abraham and Ishmael were not Jew or Christian, they were muslims. I can find no Surah that lends credence to Muhammad facing Masjid Al-Aqsa. If there is anyone who knows the Surah, then please share. eat
Until then, the only resource concerning the Kaabah as current qiblah is tradition of man and hadith. I reject them outright when presented with the Truth from my Lord in the Quran. Surah 2170
It was this warning that started my path to God out of the Christian faith. Mark 75-8, Mat. 153, Mark 713, Col. 28, Gal. 43, John 717, Titus 19, Rom. 814-16
Before anyone says I am quoting corruption, please read Surah 4136.
God restates this warning of traditions/additions in the Quran as well. 2175, 299, 324, 378, 442, 5104, 638, 6159, 621-24, 6114-116, 824, 1036, 16105, 1773-77, 1827, 1856, 2865-66, 316, 3444, 4322-24, 456, 5234, 6844, 6944-46, 6650
As I have to rebuild my faith from Christianity to Al-Islam, I cannot fall prey to the traditions and doctrines of man again. Especially after God tells me (us) the Quran is the purest Book to guide us. And as it has taken 2 years to get where I am now, I see every reason to patiently continue in study and prayer. God is Bountiful. Allahu Akbar!
This test requires we not only pray for guidance yet also earnestly search the Quran for the Truth on this matter. God is not heedless of what we do. And I will restate God is the best guidance and praise Him for giving us the Quran! Surah 373, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7750
"O you who believe, seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient." Surah 2153 (Surah 245)
"And We indeed have revealed to thee clear messages, and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299
If you pray the ritual salat, afterwards take some time to pray in earnest request for the Truth. Talk to God. Ask Him to guide you. He doesn't need us, we need Him.
Pray. 2153
Read. 961Peace and blessings.
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@ Bigmo
The admissibility of their laws is not an admission of their perfection.
Another example According to Psalm 136, Pharaoh was drowned with his army
in the Red Sea. But according to the Quran Pharaoh was spared to be made
an example of for all to see. And today, his mummified body rests in a museum.
This is further proof that the Tanakh contains errors, while the Quran is perfect.More conclusive proof from the Quran
...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446PeAcE
The Torah is not structured like the Koran. It is a library of scriptures spanning centuries and not a revelation brought down on one man word by word for a period of 20 years. Its not just a theological book, its stories, biographies, narratives, eye witness accounts, a history of a people, and revelations brought down on numerous prophets. Its unique in its own way as the Koran is unique in its own way.
The verses you quoted are not to be interpreted as you imply. I have dealt with it before and gave you a link before.
"Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.
2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah."
http//www.conflictingviews.com/religion/all-religions/koran-says-torah-gospel-not-corrupted-3324.html
As far as the other verse you quoted I am not sure where you got that translation
- Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
It has nothing to do with what you are saying. You can't read the OT the way you read the Koran but then again the Koran makes it up with difficulty of interpretation. It balances out. One is filled with information but are a collection of Books while the other is the exact words of God revealed to Muhammad but very consice and compact leaving room for vagueness and ambiguity. Its part of God's plan.
28.48. But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all (such things)!"
- Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
Its crystal clear. Notice the Koran tells the prophet to say " which is a better guide", that includes the OT. Those who continue to believe the Koran says otherwise I place in the same category as those who believe the Earth is flat.
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- Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
Its crystal clear. Those who continue to believe the Koran says otherwise I place in the same category as those who believe the Earth is flat.
Peace be unto you, brother,
With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect. (Holy Qur'an 1645)
Well stated, brother Bigmo. Or as I would say in my early days of FPS video games Well played, sir! Well played!
May you continue to be guided by God.
Peace and blessings.
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Peace c0de,
The actual act which Solomon PBUH is accused of in the Book of Kings is heresy and disbelief.
And the Quranic verse which redeems Solomon PBUH exactly counters this very claim. Your argument
that they are two separate incidents is only an assertion, and an illogical one. Why would God redeem
Solomon PBUH in the Quran if he was a heretic? Does that make sense to you?C'mon, brother, this is starting to get ridiculous... Where in the Torah is Solomon said to have turned to sorcery?! That's what the Qur'aanic passage is talking about. It's not talking about idolatry in the form of worshipping false gods, it's talking about 2 people spreading sorcery and magic throughout the land. This is NOT mentioned in the Torah at all, or in the Tanakh at all. You're going to need a lot more proof than "it says he was heretic" - that doesn't mean these two accounts are the same at all!
I have now provided you with 3 verses which use exactly that word forged/fabricated.
And not with their "mouths" either, as you claimed earlier, but their hands i.e. written scripture,
and not "oral commentaries".Really?! Where is the word "forged" (or fabricated) used in that Qur'aanic passage (not including the mistranslation you posted)? It doesn't appear in the Arabic reading at all... If it's there, please point it out. Which word in that verse means "forged/fabricated"?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Bigmo + Ahmed
Salaam brothers
@ Bigmo,
Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.@ Ahmed
Which word in that verse means "forged/fabricated"?
Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446C'mon, brother, this is starting to get ridiculous... Where in the Torah is Solomon said to have turned to sorcery?! That's what the Qur'aanic passage is talking about. It's not talking about idolatry in the form of worshipping false gods, it's talking about 2 people spreading sorcery and magic throughout the land. This is NOT mentioned in the Torah at all, or in the Tanakh at all. You're going to need a lot more proof than "it says he was heretic" - that doesn't mean these two accounts are the same at all!
Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.PeAcE
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Bigmo + Ahmed
Salaam brothers
@ Bigmo,
Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.@ Ahmed
Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.PeAcE
The verse reads like this
4.46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
The other verse you quote is not verse 2-78-79, its only 2-79
Verse 2-78 is
2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
Umiyeen is not linguistic illiterate but illiterate about the scriptures. Its not saying the Book itself has been tampered but perhaps some attempt was made by some. You must look at all the verses in the Koran regarding this subject and not made judgement based on how you intepret a single verse especially if it goes against the rest of the Koran concerning this matter. The Koran says
3.93. All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."
Also
3.78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
Lets look at the context of verse 2-79 since its the only verse people can misunderstand
Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say "We believe" But when they meet each other in private, they say "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)? Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (276-80)
So in anyways the verses are talking about people during Muhammad's time who wanted to show the Talmud as authentic teachings of the Torah. The fire would not touch us is a Talmudic quote. Also the verse says they were trying to deceive Muhammad by telling him this is the teachings of the Torah when its not. They did not want to argue with him regarding the authenticity of the Talmud. The Koran says
Sura 10) 94 If you are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, question those who have been reading the Book (Scriptures)from before you the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord so be in no wise of those who are in doubt
(Sura 3) 93 Say (to Israel) Bring the Tawrat and study it if you are men of truth. If any after this invent a lie and attribute it to Allah they are indeed unjust wrong-doers
So it seems some people around him from the Jews tried to deceive him, thus the verse
2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
The Book itself was with those who have knowledge of it and not these Umiyeen, they are just a bunch of neocons playing propaganda. The Book itself was with the Rabbis. The Koran says ask those who read the scriptures before you, meaning the men of knowledge.
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@ Bigmo
You do realize that my argument is not just based on those verses right?
So the article which you are providing is irrelevant at this point bro.
Refer to my previous response for specifics.PeAcE
Don't worry C0de, you are not the only one who can't stomach the previous scriptures. Not by a long shot. You're in good company here.
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You'd be surprised at what I can stomach... But this isn't about that. It is about what the Quran says vs. the Tanakh.
Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.
- The Pharaoh Dilemma
Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.
Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
NO COMMENT.
- The Divorce Loophole
We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.
Peace,
Rami