The Prayer Issue Revived
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Is the Bible unknown to the Qur'an?
When Christians use the testimony of the Qur'an in support of the Bible's integrity, some Muslims argue that the Qur'an does not relate to present day versions of the Torah and the Gospel. They say that the "Scriptures", which Christians and Jews had at the time of Muhammad (571 - 632 CE), were different from those available today. That the Jews of Muhammad's day were reading a different Torah, something which was "certainly not identical", "nor resembled anything like the Old Testament" which contains the reports, stories and myths of groups of people gone by. Similarly the Injil (Gospel) was "not at all identical with the New Testament or even the four gospels" available to us today (Izzat Khan and Abu Abdullah, Divine Revelations, The Muslims and the Bibles A Clarification, pp. 4-6).
It is stated that when the Qur'an talks about a single book known as the Gospel (as given to Jesus) and a single book as given to Moses (known as the Torah) that they were not the four gospels as we find them in the New Testament nor the first five books of the Old Testament known today as the Torah. To conclude the matter, such Muslims add that even the title "Bible" for the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians is foreign to the Qur'an.
The word 'Bible'
Any good dictionary will explain that the word Bible is derived from the Greek word biblia (neuter plural), which means "books". As the collections of Jewish and Christian texts came increasingly to be considered as one unit, the term in Latin began to be understood as feminine singular, denoting "The Book". The same word has come through to Modern English in words like bibliography. So when the title Bible, the book, was used, it denoted a collection of writings or books of the Christian and Jewish Scriptures.It is indeed true that the title "Bible" is not used in the Qur'an nor does it contain the proper title, "Bible" for the scriptures of the Jews and Christians but has identified it as "Kitab" (the Book) by calling the followers as "Ahlal Kitab", the people of the Book. Although, the Qur'an has borrowed many foreign terms and names like Tawrat, Furqan, Injil, Isa and Musa etc.; and Arabized them into its text, when it came to using the word Bible, it used its own Arabic words derived from Hebrew and Aramaic, thus calling the Jews and Christians "Ahlal Kitab", the people of the book, and referring to their scripture not only as "the book", Kitab, but also listing the parts of it as the Tawrah, Zaboor, Injil and Sahaif (Torah, Psalms, the Gospel(s) and the books of the prophets respectively).
Therefore the notion that the Qur'an does not mention the Bible is simply wrong. It will be like saying that the Qur'an does not mention "God". The Muslim listener will refer to many verses where Arabic words like "Allah" or "Rab" are mentioned. If those words stand for God in the Qur'an then it should not be difficult to recognise that the words Ahlal Kitab stands for Jews and Christians and their Kitab stands for their scriptures - the Bible - in the contexts as referred to them in the Qur'an.
Torah and the Injil
Some Muslim writers contend that the original Pentateuch and the original Gospel have disappeared and became extinct from the world. For example, the late Rahmatullah, whose writings are still prominent among Muslim readers, expanded this claim by asserting, "We strictly deny that the original Torah (Pentateuch) and the original Evangel existed at the time of the Prophet Muhammad and that they were not changed until later." He added further by claiming that, "The present gospels, chronicles and epistles are certainly not the Evangel referred to by the Holy Qur'an and so they are not, as such, acceptable to the Muslims."(Rahmatullah, Izharul Haqq, Part III, p.30-31)Similarly, Yusuf Ali, whose translation and commentary is popular among Muslims in the West, claims that "the Injil (Greek, Evangel = Gospel) spoken of by the Qur'an is not the New Testament. It is not the four Gospels now received as canonical. It is the single Gospel which, Islam teaches, was revealed to Jesus, and which he taught. Fragments of it survive in the received canonical Gospels ..." (Yusaf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, p.292, (Saudi Arabian Edition, p.334)
Christians believe there is indeed one Injil, brought by Jesus, the Christ. The word Injil in Arabic is a transliteration of the Greek Evangelion as Yusaf Ali has rightly mentioned in his statement. The Greek word Evangelion means "happy message" or "good news". Distinguished Muslim commentators like Baidhawi and Zamakshari openly admit that Injil is not an Arabic word but is derived from the Syriac and/or Greek word Evangel - the Gospel, the good news. Taking this as true, one should look no further than among those who have been using this term for their scriptures in Muhammad's time and even before then. When we look at the documentary evidences available to us even before Muhammad, it can be concluded that a long time before Islam started, these titles were used for the collection of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures as available today.
If the Gospel and the Torah spoken of by the Qur?an are not the same as the Old and the New Testament (known also as the Injil and Tawrat among millions of Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Turkish speaking Christians) and did not exist in the same form as in Muhammad's time, then what was the Qur'an referring to? Why did the Qur'an require Christians and Jews to accept the Old and New Testament of Muhammad's time? Why did the Qur'an tell the Jews and Christians to follow their scriptures if they were not yet in existence or were only available in corrupted versions? If a Muslim is to believe in the integrity of the Qur'an then he has also to believe that in Muhammad's time the scriptures of the Jews and Christians existed and that the Qur'an certified their message by saying that they contained guidance and light (Surah 547,49). If somehow the author of the Qur'an was doubtful of the integrity of the previous scriptures, why does it ask both Jews and Christians to follow them in their decisions?
Some Muslims assume that the Qur'an only confirmed and testified to the "original autographs" of the Torah and the Gospel, although the evidence within the Qur'an itself testifies that it was referring to that which was actually available, there and then, to the Jews and Christians. For example, to confirm and uphold their scriptures, the Qur'an uses the following words musadiqalima mahum (confirming what is with them), musadiqalima bainah yadih (confirming that which is between their hands) and musadiqalima makum (confirming that which is with them) (Surah 241,89; 33, 447; 548; 3531 and so on).
In the light of the available evidence of manuscripts (both incomplete and whole), it can be said with certainty that the Old and the New Testaments of Muhammad's time were exactly the same as available today. Today's Bible translations are based on existing manuscripts that go back even hundreds of years before Muhammad's day. Hence the logic of the Qur'anic verses immediately is that the Injil and Torah as mentioned in the Qur'an are the same as those available to us today in the New Testament and Old Testament of the Bible.
In Judaism, there is a book called "the Pentateuch" or "the five books of Moses" which are identical to those in the Bible. These books contain the major part of the Jewish law and are known as the Tawrat/Torah/Law. However, Jews often use the same term to describe the whole collection of books, which Christians call the Old Testament. It is interesting to read in a tradition of Islam that the Torah read by the Jews of Madina also included the book of Isaiah, which indicates that the Qur'an was referring to the whole collection of the Jewish scriptures with the word Torah and not just what was revealed to Moses. (See, for example, the Islamic tradition transmitted by Bukhari, Darimi and is available in Mishkat al, Masabih, Vol. II, p. 1232).
http//www.itl.org.uk/topics/kitab.html
Christians already know this. Don't you think its odd that Christians would rely on these verses more than a Koranist, of all people, would? Or is it that some people believe they understand better than the Koran. The verses in the Koran about the authenticity and legitimacy of the previous scriptures are clear cut without any room for spin. You would never win an argument using the Koran to prove otherwise. The Koran made sure of that. As a Koranist i understand the significance of that because unless something is absolutely crucial the Koran would allow for different interpretations. But it left no room for that when it came regarding the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
These are God's scriptures so why would He not defend them in the Koran? And He did so like no other subject I can think of in the Koran. There is no literature on Earth that defends the Jewish and Christian scriptures like the Koran.
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@ Bigmo
Salaam bro
As a Koranist i understand the significance of that because unless something is absolutely crucial the Koran would allow for different interpretations.
It seems that you have already made up your mind and are not willing to consider the evidence which contradicts your views.
This would explain why you have ignored all the evidence which contradicts your argument. I provided you with clear passages
from the Torah and the Tanakh which contradict the Quran. But you have completely side-stepped their existence and continue
to copy paste articles which are irrelevant at this point.Technically, you lost this debate when you refused to respond to the objections in the previous pages.
There is no literature on Earth that defends the Jewish and Christian scriptures like the Koran.
It is actually the other way around... There is no other text on earth which condemns the Jewish
and Christian narratives more, and does it with such sheer effectiveness.PeAcE
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Peace everyone,
The twisting/manipulating of the word of God and ascribing to God what He has not said continues nope
NOWHERE in al-qur'aan does God say that al-masjid al-haraam is the same as kaaba or bayt al-haraam; in fact according to al-qur'aan they are two distinct things. In fact, al-masjid al-haraam is forbidden for the mushrikeen/idolaters, whereas kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam is for entire mankind
?The first house established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds. In it are clear signs the situation of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from mankind hajj of the house, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.? (Quran 396-97)
?And call out to mankind with the hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.? (Quran 2227)
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach al-masjid al-haraam after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
This clearly shows that they are two distinct things. Kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam is open for entire mankind (which includes idolaters); al-masjid al-haraam is forbidden for the idolaters; how can they be the same? In fact, if al-masjid al-haraam surrounds kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam then it will make no sense because it will lead to an impossible situation. How can idolaters enter kaaba (because it is for entire mankind), when they cannot even approach al-masjid al-haraam?
In addition to that, kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam cannot be the one that is in Makkah. Firstly, according to al-qur'aan, it is clearly mentioned in relation to Bakkah (396) and not Makkah. The word makkah is also mentioned in the qur'aan but in the context of war. So bakkah cannot be makkah unless God is a fool and cannot spell properly. Secondly, according to 396-97, maqam Ibraheem is IN it, whereas in Makkah it is OUTSIDE it. Thirdly, according to 396-97, anyone can ENTER it, whereas in Makkah hardly anyone is allowed to ENTER it. Fourthly, lot of pagan rituals are going on in Makkah, including circling 7 times, kissing the black stone and venerating it etc., whereas 2226 clearly tells us that no partners are set up with God at the bayt.
No further comments from me on this issue as this has been discussed on this forum already in great detail and ad nauseum in the past.
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Salam
Peace everyone,
The twisting/manipulating of the word of God and ascribing to God what He has not said continues
I would be careful with making such dangerous accusations against fellow Muslims. You have no more authority then anyone else, and therefore, you can not claim that the opposition is guilty of manipulating God's meanings and you yourself are innocent of this. so please refrain from issuing such fatwas, thank you.
NOWHERE in al-qur'aan does God say that al-masjid al-haraam is the same as kaaba or bayt al-haraam; in fact according to al-qur'aan they are two distinct things. In fact, al-masjid al-haraam is forbidden for the mushrikeen/idolaters, whereas kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam is for entire mankind
Wrong. It is forbidden for anyone to worship anyone other then God in that place. So the idolaters are not allowed to worship their idols there. But the house itself is open to all who want to worship the one true God.
This clearly shows that they are two distinct things. Kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam is open for entire mankind (which includes idolaters); al-masjid al-haraam is forbidden for the idolaters; how can they be the same? In fact, if al-masjid al-haraam surrounds kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam then it will make no sense because it will lead to an impossible situation. How can idolaters enter kaaba (because it is for entire mankind), when they cannot even approach al-masjid al-haraam?
see above.
In addition to that, kaaba/al-bayt al-haraam cannot be the one that is in Makkah. Firstly, according to al-qur'aan, it is clearly mentioned in relation to Bakkah (396) and not Makkah. The word makkah is also mentioned in the qur'aan but in the context of war.
Your argument is invalid because many things have been used with multiple names in the Quran. Hell and Heaven have been called by different names too. It does not mean there are more then one Heaven and one Hell. God has 99 names, it does not mean there are 99 gods.
So bakkah cannot be makkah unless God is a fool and cannot spell properly
I advise you to modify your tone God can not be a "fool" under any circumstance.
Secondly, according to 396-97, maqam Ibraheem is IN it, whereas in Makkah it is OUTSIDE it.
Wrong, read it again. It is talking about the same place.
003.096
YUSUFALI The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings
003.097
YUSUFALI In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.Thirdly, according to 396-97, anyone can ENTER it, whereas in Makkah hardly anyone is allowed to ENTER it.
Blame that on the wahhabi authorities.
Fourthly, lot of pagan rituals are going on in Makkah, including circling 7 times, kissing the black stone and venerating it etc., whereas 2226 clearly tells us that no partners are set up with God at the bayt.
You can not prove that those rituals are pagan. I can easily claim that the pagans themselves copied those rituals from ancient antiquity, from the time of Abraham (pbuh) himself.
No further comments from me on this issue as this has been discussed on this forum already in great detail and ad nauseum in the past.
Do as you wish, just remember that you have failed to answer multiple points in the previous pages of this thread as well.
PeAcE
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Peace c0de,
There is no other text on earth which condemns the Jewish
and Christian narratives more, and does it with such sheer effectiveness.Is this serious?! You still haven't pointed out one passage in the Qur'aan where G-d condemns the previous scriptures; in fact, He does the exact opposite. He instructs the Jews to continue to observe the laws of the Torah. So, why would G-d instruct the Jewish "submitters"/muslims to live according to condemned writings? There's nowhere in the Qur'aan that says that the Torah has been corrupted, and there's definately nowhere in the scriptures where the Torah is "condemned". This is blasphemy...
Peace,
Ahmad
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c0de-I advise you to modify your tone God can not be a "fool" under any circumstance.
sub'haana Allaah
564 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
sub'haana Allaah
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace c0de,
Is this serious?! You still haven't pointed out one passage in the Qur'aan where G-d condemns the previous scriptures; in fact, He does the exact opposite. He instructs the Jews to continue to observe the laws of the Torah. So, why would G-d instruct the Jewish "submitters"/muslims to live according to condemned writings? There's nowhere in the Qur'aan that says that the Torah has been corrupted, and there's definately nowhere in the scriptures where the Torah is "condemned". This is blasphemy...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace,
2102 And they followed what the devils recited regarding Solomons kingship. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils that rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say We are a test, so do not lose faith! Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except by Gods permission. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!
What did the adversaries recited that the Jews are following?? What is this Magic that Jews follow? I am not saying it is the Torah but what is it?
541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said We believe with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among the Jews, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they say If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware! And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
What are these lies? and Who are these people that the Jews are listening to but never came to Mohammed??? are they the Babylonians? If not, then who??
If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware! - is that not what the Torah says!
542 They listen to lies, and consume money illicitly. If they come to you, then you may judge between them or turn away from them; and if you turn away from them then they cannot harm you in the least; and if you judge then judge between them with justice. God loves those who are just.
What are these lies?? Plus consuming money illicitly is allowed in the Torah as long as these people are not Jews.
543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is Gods judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.
What is the Torah the Quran is refering to??
7157 Those who follow the Gentile messenger prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, and deters them from evil, and he makes lawful for them the good things, and he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles that are upon them. So those who believe in him, and support him, and help him persevere, and follow the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful.
Is that Deut. 1818. Jews think otherwise as Mohammed is not an Israelite or is he?
9111 God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Injeel and the Quran. And whoever fulfills this vow with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
OK. This promise of Paradise is not there. Or is Paradise the Messianic era and the Kingdom of God? It could be. Can the Jewish Messiah be God Himself as in the Quran God is the King of the Day of Judgement. Can this be the Day of the Lord's anger the Tanakh is referring to.
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
These examples are not there. If they are, please post them.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace c0de,
Is this serious?! You still haven't pointed out one passage in the Qur'aan where G-d condemns the previous scriptures; in fact, He does the exact opposite. He instructs the Jews to continue to observe the laws of the Torah. So, why would G-d instruct the Jewish "submitters"/muslims to live according to condemned writings? There's nowhere in the Qur'aan that says that the Torah has been corrupted, and there's definately nowhere in the scriptures where the Torah is "condemned". This is blasphemy...
Peace,
Ahmad
Salaam Bro,
Please stop accusing the opposition of blasphemy. Ad hominems do not help your arguments, they only weaken them. Myself and others here have repeatedly pointed out contradictions in the Torah and the Quran. You yourself have admitted mistakes in the Talmud and Tanakh already. And all of this taken together proves that all those verses in the Quran which accuse the Jews of forgery, and the previous scriptures of being corrupted apply not just to the NT, Tanakh and the Talmud, but also to the Torah as inconsistencies within it have been proven with the Quran.
Your second argument that the Quran advises the Jews and Christians to follow previous scriptures does not prove their perfection. In fact, it is better explained by saying that if they followed their scriptures they would come to see the perfection of the Quran and be led to the truth (i.e. Islam).
PeAcE
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Peace bro "Ahmed Bilal",
Just wanted to throw in one qs if you dont mind. You say that the modern "Torah" weve found is authentic. Is Genesis part of the real Torah? Now i ask you WHICH BOOKS IN THE CURRENT BIBLE AND HOW MANY VERSES FROM EACH ARE PART OF THAT TORAH for surely there are contras with natural observations in the very first few verses of genesis
Genesis 12-122And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light and there was light.
Now how come theres light before the sun is created?
4And God saw the light, that it was good and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Day and night created BEFORE THE SUN? idnt this ridiculous since we know that the sun and rotation of the earth is what makes night and day?
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
JK- Again evening and morning without the sun?
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas and God saw that it was good.
The earth wasnt first water but a very hot and dry planet.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Again all this WITHOUT THE SUN. And the phrase "and the evening and the morning" inplies a literal 24 hr day which again is totally false as we know the formation of the earth took billions of years and for life on it to form too.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth and it was so.
AHA but the previous verfses were already talking about the earth having night and day i.e. LIGHT so is the sun an extra light?
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
So the sunn moon and stars were all made in 24hrs as we experience today without the sun even being there and they were all made AFTER the earth and vegetation having already soung on it??? !!
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Whales were created before beasts of the earth cattle etc. This is also false. Whales are mammals. and they evolved from land dwelling mammals.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Also man is not created in the image of GOD. The Quran clearly states in 112 that theres nothing like unto Him and surprisingly this same Biblical statement is also found in the hadith BUT NEVER IN THE QURAN. Wonder why that is? The Bible shodulve stated that mankind is made in the image of apes. That wldve been accurate and acceptable since those creatures came before humans and wer not as similar to any other species on this planet as we r to apes. So even if you reject the concept of us sharing a common ancestor with apes, for which there is now evidence beyond any reasonable doubt, you must accept that GOD used them as prototypes for creating men and not portraying His own image by cerating us. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Ahmed Bilal" and all,
You are right the Quran doesnt say the Torah is corrupted BECAUSE THE TRUE TORAH ISNT. HOWVER THE TRUE TORAH HAS NOT BEEN DISCOVERED YET EITHER. On the other hand just because people claim books x,y,z belong to the Torah does not make it so does it? I can say suras wilayet and nurain belong to the Quran. I can even attach them to my copy of the Quran and sell it out to a bunch of gullible ppl in the world. Do you get my point? Certain people claiming something to be Torah or Pslms or Quran does not make it so. NOW what the Quran does state is that people made up things and claimed them be from GOD whilst trhey were not. This is excactly what happened. People for example claim Gen 12-30 to be the Torah i.e. GOD's scripture BUT IT IS NOT. Torah and GOD's Word are not mutually exlusive so when people can claim x,y,z to be GOD's statement whilst in actuality it is not it logically follow that they can claim that x,y,z is part of the Torah or Psamls or even Quran whilst actually it isnt. Get the point? GOD Bless!
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Peace "Jonny_K",
You have raised some very good points, and G-d willing, I'll do my best to answer them sufficiently. The bring up some important questions relating to the Qur'aan and the Torah. For starters, if the "True Torah" has not been discovered, then why does G-d instruct the Jews, even in the Qur'aan, to continue following the path of the Torah? He said that the righteous Jews (i.e. Jewish submitters) are those who follow the true guidance of G-d's revelations, revealed through the Torah. This wouldn't make any sense if the Jews were not in possession of the "True Torah"...
Now, in my opinion, the Book of Genesis (or "Bereishith" is definately part of the Torah. It doesn't appear contrary to nature or Qur'aan; many people just don't understand it's doctrines, especially without examining the true teachings of Torah and Judaism... For example, you mentioned the concept of light appearing before the sun was formed. This is not contrary at all. Rather, it shows that there was (and probably still is) another source of light besides the sun. Since G-d is in total control of the universe, He is able to manipulate other factors to contribute to His creation, if He wills. Also, we know this isn't referring to a literal 24-hour day, since our concept of a "day" is based solar movement. So, the "day" mentioned is referring to a longer period of time, most likely the same way the Qur'aan alludes to the 6-day creation period... After the cooling of the planet, G-d formed the water bodies. This is completely consistent with the Qur'aan, since directly after the bodies of water are formed, Bereishith mentions the production of plants, just as the Qur'aan mentions that all living creatures were formed from water... There's no proof that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals, and it's very plausible that they were formed before cattle and other land animals.
Now, regarding the human creation in the "image" of G-d, this is not a blasphemous or idolatrous statement. Many people just don't understand the underlying concept of it... We know that G-d has no physical makeup, and there is nothing comparable to Him. Also, nobody has seen the face of G-d, so that statement appears to be illogical, since we can see humans. However, this is not what the scripture is saying. The Hebrew word used is "tzelem" (image), which refers to the nature or essence of a thing, not a physical image. The word for a physical image ("to'ar" is not used in this passage, even though it is used in other parts of the Torah to refer to the physical image of something or someone. Also, the word used for likeness is "demut", which refers to the nature of a thing or person, not a physical likeness... Jewish rabbis insist that G-d has no physical form, and we are like G-d in the sense that we have the ability to think and discern, able to perceive things, with our intellect, without the use of our physical senses.
I understand what you mean by others adding portions into the scriptures, be they the Psalms, the Torah, or the Qur'aan. However, I don't think these are actualities (except maybe the Psalms). The Torah is the same everywhere, no matter what group of Jews you meet. The Qur'aan is the same, even though I do believe that it's reasonably plausible that scribes wrote the 2 "false" verses into the Qur'aan after Muhammad's death (i.e. 9128, 129), based on mathematical composition. But this would also imply that G-d has protected His books through patterns and consistency, something that should fit both the Qur'aan and the Torah... So, yes, I definately believe Genesis ("Bereishith" is part of the original, true Torah, and it is very consistent with nature and the Qur'aan.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace "Ahmed Bilal",
Peace "Jonny_K",
You have raised some very good points, and G-d willing, I'll do my best to answer them sufficiently. The bring up some important questions relating to the Qur'aan and the Torah. For starters, if the "True Torah" has not been discovered, then why does G-d instruct the Jews, even in the Qur'aan, to continue following the path of the Torah? He said that the righteous Jews (i.e. Jewish submitters) are those who follow the true guidance of G-d's revelations, revealed through the Torah. This wouldn't make any sense if the Jews were not in possession of the "True Torah"...
JK- When GOD says Jews in the Quran it depends on the context whether Hes referring to the righteous or unrighteous ones. Thats pt one. 2ndly the righteous Jews may at the time of the revelation of the Quran and even some today posess knowledge of the true Torah through whatever mechanism there maybe. 3rdly it is possible that the true Torah was available at the time of rev of the Quran but then got lost and today only a few elite know about it and they don't wanna reveal it because they fear it would show the Quran is the truth which theyd like to undermine by all means. This has infact been my mother's hypothesis all along.
Now, in my opinion, the Book of Genesis (or "Bereishith" is definately part of the Torah. It doesn't appear contrary to nature or Qur'aan; many people just don't understand it's doctrines, especially without examining the true teachings of Torah and Judaism... For example, you mentioned the concept of light appearing before the sun was formed. This is not contrary at all. Rather, it shows that there was (and probably still is) another source of light besides the sun. Since G-d is in total control of the universe, He is able to manipulate other factors to contribute to His creation, if He wills.
JK- If this is so then GOD mustve put signs in nature which indicate the same but the opposite is the case. So it's scripture vs natural observation. If a scripture conflicts with natural obervation then how would we know that it's GOD's scripture in the first place? This is a serious flaw and many religious people ignore this entirely. Therefore the argument GOD can do anything is absurd for it doesnt allow us to know what is from GOD and what isnt anymore.
Also, we know this isn't referring to a literal 24-hour day, since our concept of a "day" is based solar movement. So, the "day" mentioned is referring to a longer period of time, most likely the same way the Qur'aan alludes to the 6-day creation period...
JK- But genesis adds the phrase "and it was evening and morning. the xth day". This phrase indicates there passing one evening before the next day so i ask what is this even based on before there was the sun? It is entirely senseless. Also if by "day" in genesis can be meant millions of years then how did plants survive millions of years without the sun?
After the cooling of the planet, G-d formed the water bodies. This is completely consistent with the Qur'aan, since directly after the bodies of water are formed, Bereishith mentions the production of plants, just as the Qur'aan mentions that all living creatures were formed from water... There's no proof that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals, and it's very plausible that they were formed before cattle and other land animals.
JK- Theres hell lot of prove that whales evolved from land dwelling mammals infact as much as there is for the big bang. Please read up
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_Cetaceans
http//www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1
See again now the OT is in conflict with natural observations.Now, regarding the human creation in the "image" of G-d, this is not a blasphemous or idolatrous statement. Many people just don't understand the underlying concept of it... We know that G-d has no physical makeup, and there is nothing comparable to Him. Also, nobody has seen the face of G-d, so that statement appears to be illogical, since we can see humans. However, this is not what the scripture is saying. The Hebrew word used is "tzelem" (image), which refers to the nature or essence of a thing, not a physical image. The word for a physical image ("to'ar" is not used in this passage, even though it is used in other parts of the Torah to refer to the physical image of something or someone. Also, the word used for likeness is "demut", which refers to the nature of a thing or person, not a physical likeness... Jewish rabbis insist that G-d has no physical form, and we are like G-d in the sense that we have the ability to think and discern, able to perceive things, with our intellect, without the use of our physical senses.
JK- Ok so lets say it means the essence or nature of a thing. Are we of the same essence or nature as GOD? In other words aree we in any way more closely related to GOD than to apes? The answer is again NO. Even our attitudes, amotions and behaviour show similarities with apes. We have a more evolved brain yes but we still use the same basic insitinctive signs as apes do and also show simlar behavioural patterns when wer jealous, angry etc.
I understand what you mean by others adding portions into the scriptures, be they the Psalms, the Torah, or the Qur'aan. However, I don't think these are actualities (except maybe the Psalms). The Torah is the same everywhere, no matter what group of Jews you meet. The Qur'aan is the same, even though I do believe that it's reasonably plausible that scribes wrote the 2 "false" verses into the Qur'aan after Muhammad's death (i.e. 9128, 129), based on mathematical composition. But this would also imply that G-d has protected His books through patterns and consistency, something that should fit both the Qur'aan and the Torah... So, yes, I definately believe Genesis ("Bereishith" is part of the original, true Torah, and it is very consistent with nature and the Qur'aan.
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- YES here i agree. There is most probably a mathemtical pattern in the Torah as well but ive only yet seen gen 11 fall under that and no other verse. So it yet remains to be discovered. GOD Bless!
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Peace again "Bilal Ahmed",
Btw i didnt even go into much detail of every contradiction in Genesis. If you want to i can bring up alot more and see if you can explain all of them away. To put it simply in Genesis, the earth is created (11) before light (13), sun and stars (116); birds and whales (121) before reptiles and insects (124); and flowering plants (111) before any animals (120). The order of events known from science is in each case just the opposite. So if Genesis be true then all dating methods used from enormous amounts of independent reserach all over the world must have been used wrongly and the convergence of all their results independetly must have also been one great coincidnce. In other words GOD, GOD forbid, has placed signs in nature which show the opposite of what He supposedly states in is Scripure. Do you sense the sburdity now? GOD Bless! -
JK- Theres hell lot of prove that whales evolved from land dwelling mammals infact as much as there is for the big bang. Please read up
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_Cetaceans
http//www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1
See again now the OT is in conflict with natural observations.I didn't even thing about that. Evolution via natural selection is a fact that only those who believe in the accuracy of the OT challenge.
peace
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Peace "code",
I didn't even thing about that. Evolution via natural selection is a fact that only those who believe in the accuracy of the OT challenge.
peace
JK- Exactly and hence it is totally biased and cannot be accepted by anyone outside the circle of that particular belief system. This is infact the most obvious reasons why creationism is so ridiculous. GOD Bless!
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ahmad bilal-Where is the proof that the early Muslims prayed 5 times per day?
I believe a section of ismaili's have a system of three prayers; I think they call it dua, rather than salaat or namaaz.
I remember a hadith which states that the prophet initially prayed twice a day. Maybe that was before the hadith wherein the prophet allegedly seals the 5 salaat deal.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace c0de,
Sorry, bro. I didn't even notice this post by you, so it's a little late...
Please stop accusing the opposition of blasphemy.
I never accused you of blasphemy. I said that alleging that G-d condemned the same scripture that He sent down is blasphemy. This is claiming that G-d works against Himself...
Myself and others here have repeatedly pointed out contradictions in the Torah and the Quran. You yourself have admitted mistakes in the Talmud and Tanakh already. And all of this taken together proves that all those verses in the Quran which accuse the Jews of forgery, and the previous scriptures of being corrupted apply not just to the NT, Tanakh and the Talmud, but also to the Torah as inconsistencies within it have been proven with the Quran.
This is absolutely false. There are no contradictions in the Torah, people have just misinterpreted the passages of the Torah. It's no different than people alleging that the Qur'aan contains contradictions and inconsistencies. Your claim that the Talmud and Tanakh contain mistakes is NOT proof that there are errors in the Torah, period.
Your second argument that the Quran advises the Jews and Christians to follow previous scriptures does not prove their perfection. In fact, it is better explained by saying that if they followed their scriptures they would come to see the perfection of the Quran and be led to the truth (i.e. Islam).
So, G-d is telling them to follow some "fabricated" scriptures, and it will lead them to the truthful message of the Qur'aan? Does this honestly make sense to you?! If the Torah is forged and fabricated, then it would completely conflict with the Qur'aan, and this would only push away those who actually follow the previous scriptures...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Jonny_K,
JK- When GOD says Jews in the Quran it depends on the context whether Hes referring to the righteous or unrighteous ones. Thats pt one. 2ndly the righteous Jews may at the time of the revelation of the Quran and even some today posess knowledge of the true Torah through whatever mechanism there maybe. 3rdly it is possible that the true Torah was available at the time of rev of the Quran but then got lost and today only a few elite know about it and they don't wanna reveal it because they fear it would show the Quran is the truth which theyd like to undermine by all means. This has infact been my mother's hypothesis all along.
C'mon, bro. How likely is this? The Torah that is in circulation is the same Torah that was in circulation thousands of years ago, and this has been historically confirmed many times, both by Jewish rabbis and by and historians... So, what exactly is the "true Torah" you're talking about? You're correct that it depends on the context whether the Qur'aan is talking about righteous or unrighteous Jews. However, in most cases, the ones called unrighteous are those who take partners beside G-d. The same goes for unrighteous Muslims throughout the world, even mentioned in the Qur'aan.
JK- If this is so then GOD mustve put signs in nature which indicate the same but the opposite is the case. So it's scripture vs natural observation. If a scripture conflicts with natural obervation then how would we know that it's GOD's scripture in the first place? This is a serious flaw and many religious people ignore this entirely. Therefore the argument GOD can do anything is absurd for it doesnt allow us to know what is from GOD and what isnt anymore.
The Torah is in harmony with the Qur'aan, and the Qur'aan admittedly confirms the Torah. So, alleging that one is fabricated is alleging that BOTH are fabricated. They don't conflict with natural observation; you only don't understand the principles outlined in the Torah, and this is why you feel they contradict. Also, throughout history, as stated in Torah and Qur'aan, G-d has done many things that seem to conflict with nature. Does this make the scriptures false?
JK- But genesis adds the phrase "and it was evening and morning. the xth day". This phrase indicates there passing one evening before the next day so i ask what is this even based on before there was the sun? It is entirely senseless. Also if by "day" in genesis can be meant millions of years then how did plants survive millions of years without the sun?
First of all, how do you know this was before the sun? Secondly, if (hypothetically) it was before the sun, then why is it impossible for another primary light and heat source sustain the plants until the formation of the sun? And this also brings up the same issue in the Qur'aan, which also uses the same description of the universal creation in "six days". So, do you believe the Qur'aan was falsified to fit the Torah? Why do many people consider it "false" in the Torah but "true" in the Qur'aan, even though they say the same thing?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace bro "AB",
Peace Jonny_K,
C'mon, bro. How likely is this? The Torah that is in circulation is the same Torah that was in circulation thousands of years ago, and this has been historically confirmed many times, both by Jewish rabbis and by and historians... So, what exactly is the "true Torah" you're talking about? You're correct that it depends on the context whether the Qur'aan is talking about righteous or unrighteous Jews. However, in most cases, the ones called unrighteous are those who take partners beside G-d. The same goes for unrighteous Muslims throughout the world, even mentioned in the Qur'aan.
JK- IMHO Very likely. Many Jews are still very proud of their religion and those would be biased in that regard just as any other religion thus making it appear as if their Holy Book is still with them. Ive seen you accept 9128&129 are not part of the Quran whilst the sunni/shia poudly claim that theyve the true Quran with them. I told you i know of no statement other than Gen 11 which has been mathematically confirmed in the OT so you should accept that the complete Torah has by long not been uncovered. And not only those who directly claim to take parnters besides GOD are the unrighteous. It also incldues the rejectors of GOD's signs when they come to them as many Jews rejected the Message when it came to them.
The Torah is in harmony with the Qur'aan, and the Qur'aan admittedly confirms the Torah. So, alleging that one is fabricated is alleging that BOTH are fabricated. They don't conflict with natural observation; you only don't understand the principles outlined in the Torah, and this is why you feel they contradict. Also, throughout history, as stated in Torah and Qur'aan, G-d has done many things that seem to conflict with nature. Does this make the scriptures false?
JK- The Quran will no doubt be confirming the real Torah once it's uncovered. As for the OT it doesnt. For example the OT mentions the seventh day on which GOD allegedly rested in the creation account. This is nowehere to be found confirmed in the Quran despite it being a crucial day in the OT. The Quran only mentions six days and it doesnt add the statment "and it was evening and it was morning" to suggest some nonsolar light source. So once again the Quran does not confirm the current OT.
NOW tell me if there are things in the Quran or Torah which are in conflict with indeodent natural observations THEN HOW CAN WE KNOW THAT THEYR GOD'S SCRIPTURES IN THE FIRST PLACE?First of all, how do you know this was before the sun? Secondly, if (hypothetically) it was before the sun, then why is it impossible for another primary light and heat source sustain the plants until the formation of the sun? And this also brings up the same issue in the Qur'aan, which also uses the same description of the universal creation in "six days". So, do you believe the Qur'aan was falsified to fit the Torah? Why do many people consider it "false" in the Torah but "true" in the Qur'aan, even though they say the same thing?
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- First of all the Bible states that the sun was created on the fouth day and plants on the 3rd. 2ndly we know this doesnt make sense via independent study of the cosmos which states that the sun was always the source of light for the earth. Again the Quran does not assert such and so does not confirm this "Torah" statement. The only way to justify this would be to say there was a supernatural source of light but how can we ever know if that is true or not and hence how can we ever know that that statement claiming it to be so is from GOD? Do you see the flaw in logic here? GOD Bless!