hajj / feast / debate
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Peace Mini,
According to 2227, the question is not what to invite people "to", it is what to invite people "with". People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas". Usually, such venues only attract like-minded people. On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Peace,
Ayman
You might be right. The "feast" idea doesnt seem farfetched.
2227 Call out to people with the Hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
6118 So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs.
6119 Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
6121 Do not eat from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile. The devils inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.
Mentioning God's name and eating go hand in hand.
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peace ayman, all,
People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Have you heard of debate club? Or how about many scientific/clinical conferences in which new information/research/ideas are conveyed even though the audience may hold alternative views? But, not to worry, your absolutist statement is clarified later...
Usually, such venues only attract like-minded people.
Exactly. Admitted by yourself like-minded people. Sounds perfect doesn't it.
Does this forum not attract people with differing beliefs who exchange ideas? If this forum was hosted in a physical venue, would no-one attend according to you or would only like-minded people attend? Can one not be like-minded with others, hold different views and still want to attend a venue to exchange ideas? Is this some sort of cosmological impossibility?
On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Well, perhaps not those who are already well fed, have food intolerances/allergies, particular tastes, religious restrictions, etc etc. but everyone else, yes, including people not of like mind, a mish mash of people with no common aim or goal except to partake in free food it seems, then yes you are correct, everyone of this kind.
Is that wrong? No, not necessarily. Is that right? No, not necessarily.
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We should look at the Bible. "Hag" (mentioned in the Bible) and "Hajj" seem to be the same thing.
Three times a year shall you celebrate for Me a hag (Exodus 2314).
Nearly all translation's which I checked (from http//bible.cc/exodus/23-14.htm, btw) say "feast", and one says "pilgrimage festival".Some more verses
"Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips." (Exodus 2313) Seems to be a parallel to Quran 2228.
"You shall observe the hag of Unleavened Bread; for seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed. (Exodus 2315)
"Celebrate the Feast of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field. Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field." (Exodus 2316)
"Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Lord God." (Exodus 2317)
"Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast. "The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning." (Exodus 231
Cross-reference to Exodus 1210 'And you shall not leave any of it over until morning, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire.'
"Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God. "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." (Exodus 2319)
Anyone have more verses about "hag"?
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Peace brother Wakas,
Have you heard of debate club? Or how about many scientific/clinical conferences in which new information/research/ideas are conveyed even though the audience may hold alternative views? But, not to worry, your absolutist statement is clarified later...
Exactly. Admitted by yourself like-minded people. Sounds perfect doesn't it.
Does this forum not attract people with differing beliefs who exchange ideas? If this forum was hosted in a physical venue, would no-one attend according to you or would only like-minded people attend? Can one not be like-minded with others, hold different views and still want to attend a venue to exchange ideas? Is this some sort of cosmological impossibility?
Well, perhaps not those who are already well fed, have food intolerances/allergies, particular tastes, religious restrictions, etc etc. but everyone else, yes, including people not of like mind, a mish mash of people with no common aim or goal except to partake in free food it seems, then yes you are correct, everyone of this kind.
Is that wrong? No, not necessarily. Is that right? No, not necessarily.Here is the FM translation of 2228
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves, and mention the name of God in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
Does this sound more like this forum hosted in a physical venue or like a feast?
I am not making any absolutist statement but I am making a statement of what is most likely, which also happens to be the simplest explanation.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brother Ayman,
Here is the FM translation of 2228
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves, and mention the name of God in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
Does this sound more like this forum hosted in a physical venue or like a feast?
Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlI am not making any absolutist statement but I am making a statement of what is most likely, which also happens to be the simplest explanation.
An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.
In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.Corrected to represent what is most accurate
- People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
- On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.
As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.
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Peace Progressive1993
We should look at the Bible. "Hag" (mentioned in the Bible) and "Hajj" seem to be the same thing.
?Three times a year shall you celebrate for Me a hag? (Exodus 2314).
Nearly all translation's which I checked (from http//bible.cc/exodus/23-14.htm, btw) say "feast", and one says "pilgrimage festival".Indeed, Exodus 2314-17 does describe a harvest feast ("hagg". What you need to realize is that everything in the great reading is interconnected. So unlike spinning around some stone cube and kissing a Black Stone which can be done anytime or according to an arbitrary lunar calendar, if you think that "hagg" means "feast" then its timing must coincide with the time of the harvest. The three "hagg" are also in line with the findings on the four inviolable full-moons, the first being a marker for the fast, while the following three are for the feast.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Wakas,
Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlIt is good then that I didn't waste your time in answering rhetorical questions.
I didn't say that you were equating this forum with "hajj". You used the example of this forum which is a venue for debate (according to you "hajj" means "debate". I used the example of a feast. I simply pointed out which example is more likely to fit the clear purposes outlined in 2228. Instead of bringing a counter argument and trying to dispute that my example fits better, you abandon your example.
At any rate, if you think the example of this debate forum is weak and therefore I am using it to build a strawman, then simply bring a strong example instead of just complaining about a foul.
An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.
In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Corrected to represent what is most accurate- People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
- On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.
As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.
No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me. jedi
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brother Ayman,
I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.
No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me.
"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.
I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.
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One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)
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One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)
According to Gesenius? A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, the Hebrew equivalent is hag (Hebrew script here). The verb means ?to make a pilgrimage? or ?to keep a pilgrim-feast? (see for example Moses in Exodus 51, 109). In the noun form it has the same meaning; additionally, the hag also refers to the Feast of Booths, to which we will come back later. It is also possible that the root hoog (Hebrew script here = to go around, to go in a circle) in North as well as South Semitic languages is connected with it.
(From http//www.universalunity.net/Salat_And_Hajj.htm)
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I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. . -
I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. .That's why I think that 'festival' is a better translation, as it covers all the aspects of the hajj.
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Peace brother Wakas,
I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.
"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.
I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.I did climb down a while ago from my earlier false interpretation of "debate" (now yours) and adopted the better and simpler interpretation of "feast". Perhaps you should try to consider Occam's Razor.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Kaamil,
I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
You make some good points. Thanks.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
Abstinence is only during the daylight hours. This is not an issue and we actually see that during fasting every day at sunset people have big feasts at mosques and on the streets where free food is provided. Also, the command to fast in 2196 is given to those who PROSPERED as a result of the feast, so this certainly doesn't apply to the poor.
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.
Now Wakas's turn. What does cutting the hair have to do with a "debate"?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
Why do you think countries have visas and border control?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
Who said anything about people becoming monotheists?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
Some people may consider animal sacrifice as a pagan custom.
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
Let's try it and see.
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god.
The benefits are benefits "for them". So this will depend on the person.
Peace,
Ayman
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2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.
rotfl, but that could be the relevance of it if hajj means "feast".
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peace Kaamil, all,
Thank you for your contribution. Personally, I have not studied the topic of HJJ in detail, as stated in this thread. This entire thread sprang from my questions regarding Ayman's understanding and interpretation of 2158 which to this day still remain unanswered (see post #20 in this thread). Thus, I felt no need to run the understanding of "feast" through the rest of AQ to see what other flaws it had, if any.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
Good point. I strongly recommend you and readers to insert the understanding of "feast" and "prosper" in 2196 to see if it makes sense. And once you have done this, then re-read Ayman's reply to your question to see if his answers make sense. Let us know the outcome.
See here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.msg48647#msg486472, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
Again, please repeat the same procedure as I outlined above and let us know the outcome.
As a side note, I have discussed the hair cutting/shaving interpretation quite a lot in this forum, if you wish to read them, e.g
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.msg49208#msg49208
Although, having said that, I am not averse to the interpretation of shaving/cutting hair IF the evidence suggests it. As it makes no difference to my view, however in Ayman's reply he confuses the sequence of events yet again. As I said, please follow the procedure above and let us know the outcome.Your point 3, is a decent observation. Similarly, same with your point 4. There are many HJJ verses discussing "do HJJ/3MR for God, observe XYZ regulation for God, be aware of God, remember God" etc. It clearly has a significant God/believer/faith component.
Your point 5 is pretty much the same question I asked Ayman regarding 2158 (see post #20, which I'm sure you have already read).
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Peace brother Wakas,
however in Ayman's reply he confuses the sequence of events yet again. As I said, please follow the procedure above and let us know the outcome.
Why don't you tell us exactly what your sequence of events for "hajj" is in steps 1, 2, 3... so that we can see how both our sequence of events align with the great reading?
Peace,
Ayman
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peace Ayman,
Brother, if a person does not answer my questions after months of discussion, I'm not going to answer theirs. As a side note, I have never read any article discussing the sequence of events regarding HJJ, including from you. Thus, in order for me to present such a sequence would require significant levels of study.
But I will help you out on this point about sequence which I referred to, in case it was not clear from what I said. Let me re-cap
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.
Cooks and food handlers cover their hair for hygienic practices, so no stray hairs or the contaminents in hair go on/into the food. Your sequence is AFTER finished handling the offering (e.g. food), i.e. AFTER it has reached its destination, the person THEN shaves/cuts his hair. As everyone can see your sequence does not fit, as the hair is free/uncovered when handling the food. If I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.
As I recommended to readers earlier, they should insert "feast" and "prosper" into 2196, 2158 and other verses to see if this understanding makes any sense. I am of the view it clearly does not, with the evidence presented thus far.
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Peace brother Wakas,
Brother, if a person does not answer my questions after months of discussion, I'm not going to answer theirs. As a side note, I have never read any article discussing the sequence of events regarding HJJ, including from you. Thus, in order for me to present such a sequence would require significant levels of study.
What I am saying is that this is what is needed. I have started to think about the sequence and putting it together from my end. It would help if you do the same. This should answer most questions, I hope.
But I will help you out on this point about sequence which I referred to, in case it was not clear from what I said. Let me re-cap
Cooks and food handlers cover their hair for hygienic practices, so no stray hairs or the contaminents in hair go on/into the food. Your sequence is AFTER finished handling the offering (e.g. food), i.e. AFTER it has reached its destination, the person THEN shaves/cuts his hair. As everyone can see your sequence does not fit, as the hair is free/uncovered when handling the food. If I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.
As I recommended to readers earlier, they should insert "feast" and "prosper" into 2196, 2158 and other verses to see if this understanding makes any sense. I am of the view it clearly does not, with the evidence presented thus far.Great so at least you admit that hair is definitely an issue when it comes to food. Your objection is due to your misunderstanding of the sequence and my example. The fact is that we are told not to cut the hair until after the food has reached its destination. So this means that we don't cut our hair while the food is being cooked and served. If you cut your hair while cooking or serving food then your hair will certainly get in the food. Do you ever see any cooks or food handler cut their hair while they are serving food? I hope not. They cover their hair and they don't even touch it, let alone cut it.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brother Ayman,
Great so at least you admit that hair is definitely an issue when it comes to food.
Hair is one of many issues when it comes to food.
But thanks for your explanation. I'm glad AQ points out things like do not cut your hair whilst cooking or serving food, cause you know how many get that wrong these days eh ;D
