Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?

almarh0m

Peace Bro Wakas

peace,

Evidence from AQ?

If you are asking me to provide evidence from the AQ regarding a verse that expressly states Salat , Rukoo and Sujood in one ayat , I am afraid I can't give you one . Unless of course you know one such verse then I'll be grateful if you could lead me to it ( I was not translating any particular verse ) . What I expressed in my previous post of which your question is based , is my 'over-all' understanding of Islam according to AQ , as if I was to take 'Salat' , 'Rukoo' , 'Sujjod' , 'The Focal Point' , 'The Law ' as well as "The Guidance " in piecemeal fashion , then I would be as far astray as anybody that is lost .

What would be the meaning of salat if it does not entails all of the above ? I think this is where most of the people fail to see that we should not take the essence of Islam in isolation to each other . By that I mean that AQ as the book of guidance should be studied and understood in contextual as well textual manners . Based on my understanding of AQ , I believe that the whole question of 'Rukoo' and 'Sujood' is part of "Salat" as a 'commitment to respect and Obey' the law of god as well as the law of the land wherever we may be . Rukoo and Sujood may not be mentioned together with Salat in one verse , but they are implied or inferred , otherwise what is the meaning of Salat without the action of respecting and obeying the law ?

As always , I appreciate any help from you or anyone to better my understanding of Deen al Islam .

Peace

almarh0m

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas, everyone,

I have a new understanding about "faithaa sajadoo" in 4102. Sujud is "submission/obedience/acknowledgment" so why can't "faithaa sajadoo" in 4102 refer to completing the salaat instead of a separate physical sujud? Upholding the salaat itself is submitting to/obeying/acknowledging the god/sujud in the context of 4102.

When they have submitted/obeyed/acknowledged = when they have completed the salaat

In other words,

Upholding the salaat = sujud in the context of 4102

Q_student

Peace Wakas, everyone,

I have a new understanding about "faithaa sajadoo" in 4102. Sujud is "submission/obedience/acknowledgment" so why can't "faithaa sajadoo" in 4102 refer to completing the salaat instead of a separate physical sujud? Upholding the salaat itself is submitting to/obeying/acknowledging the god/sujud in the context of 4102.

When they have submitted/obeyed/acknowledged = when they have completed the salaat

In other words,

Upholding the salaat = sujud in the context of 4102

Peace Brother
You have rotated to 180 degrees what you were saying a few days back.I hope you will not rotate further.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Wakas, truthseeker11, all,

do you bow and prostrate in salaat or do you do it "mentally"?

truthseeker11

Peace student,

I have always maintained that 4102 is proof of a physical sujood. My new understanding is consistent with that. The act of salaat is a physical act in addition to the mental, and upholding this physical and mental act of salaat in accordance with the god's words is itself submitting to the god or "sujud". When someone remembers the god, glorifies and praises him with humility and reads the qur'aan with understanding at regular times of the day according to the god's commandments, thereby submitting to him, if that itself is not sujud in the context of 4102 then what is?

Wakas

peace truthseeker, all,

Whilst I understand your reasoning, and agree to a certain extent, but wouldn't you still have the same question, i.e. how do you determine the end of the regular/timed salat (bond/homage) in a group setting? Please ponder on this point along with 558 and 835.

do you bow and prostrate in salaat or do you do it "mentally"?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597865.msg193643#msg193643 (as referenced by me earlier)

My understanding is that the regular/timed salaat is for the mumineen, and since I do not consider myself a mumin, I do not uphold it, thus do not bow and prostrate in it. But if I were to uphold it, then no I would not physically bow or prostrate as the evidence for doing this is weak from AQ.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas,

If I tell a group of students

"Please show up for class and then WHEN YOU ARE DONE then you can leave".

How do the students know when the class is done? Obviously the teacher or the students determine that.

"When you are done" implies "when you have taken your class". The class could be 10 minutes or it could be three hours. The teacher taking the class will determine when the class is over or if the students are having a group discussion then they will determine it with mutual agreement or if a student is studying by himself/herself, then the student will determine it. It does not imply that only if you jump up and down at the end of class, then it is done. That would be a nonsensical interpretation of my statement above.

4102 is similar

4102 And if you are with them and you uphold the connection/bond for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have SUBMITTED then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet connected/bonded come and connect/bond along with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them.

Here "when they have submitted/faithaa sajadoo" clearly refers to "uphold the connection/bond", and it implies "when they have upheld the salaat/when they are done with the salaat". The "you uphold......for them" implies that the person leading the salaat session will determine when the salaat session (session of learning the qur'aan and session of remembrance/glorification/praise of the god) is finished.

God commands the believers to uphold the salaat and they submit by upholding the salaat. The submission/"sujud" is the upholding of the salaat itself. "When they have submitted" refers to "when they have upheld the salaat according to the god's commandment". In my understanding, "faithaa sajadoo/when they have submitted" in 4102 refers to upholding the whole salaat rather than just how it is ended. Just like in my above example, "when you are done" refers to taking the entire class rather than how it was ended.

Wakas

peace ts11,

I am assuming the "jumping up and down" comment was some sort of point for my consideration, but that is not what I discussed in this very thread in the context of 4102.

As far as I'm aware "fa-itha sajadoo" means "then/so when they have sjd", and implies a sequence. You still did not answer my question on a practical end-point. However, I agree that it is likely the leader of the group will be the one determining the end-point, and may, for example, end with something that would incite an end-point, e.g. when it is read to them, they say "we hear and obey" (as per AQ). He could just end with "... and that concludes today's salat" and illicit no reaction from the group. That is also possible.

Thus, both our understandings are acceptable interpretations, and at the present time, I cant think of anything that would give more weight to one over the other. This may be clarified in future.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for your comment. One point in your comment about the "we hear and obey" part brought me a sudden realization and when I researched it gave me chills and goose bumps with excitement. I think I might have finally discovered what "sujud" is according to the qur'aan in the context of salaat. Let me illustrate with evidence

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan.?

According to the above sign, whenever the knowledgable hear the signs of the god, they fall in sujud. The qur'aan always explains itself. The mystery is solved when we consider other signs from the qur'aan that describe what they did after they heard the signs, thereby explaining EXACTLY what "sujud" is in context of hearing the signs of the god. Group salaat usually involves reading from the qur'aan by the leader to an audience. The following signs tell us what the audience did when signs from the qur'aan were read to them

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers ?We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;? and they said ?We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny.?

Here, the red part of the sign was read to them and what they did after hearing the sign is the blue part. Putting 17107 and 2285 together we can clearly see that the "sujud" in the context of hearing the sign is saying "we hear and obey, forgive us o lord, and to you is our destiny".

57 And recall God?s blessings over you and His covenant that He has bound you with, for which you have said ?We hear and obey,? and be aware of God; for God knows what is inside the chests.

According to this sign, whenever they were reminded about the god's blessings and his covenant that he has bound them with (obviously from the qur'aan), they said "we hear and obey". Therefore, putting 17107 together with this sign it is clear that "sujud" in the context of hearing the god's signs is saying "we hear and obey".

2451 The utterance of the believers when they are invited to God and His messenger to judge in their affairs is to say ?We hear and obey.? These are the winners.

How much clearer can the god be? According to this sign, when they are invited to the god and his messenger to judge in their affairs (obviously through reading his signs to them), their utterance is "we hear and obey". Putting 17107 together with 2451 it becomes clear that the sujud in the context of hearing the signs of the god is to utter "we hear and obey".

Now contrast this with the refusal of the rejecters to "sujud" on hearing the god's signs

293 And We took your covenant, and raised the mount to be above you ?Take what We have given you with strength, and listen.? They said ?We hear and disobey!?, and they had consumed the calf inside their hearts by their disbelief. Say ?Miserable indeed is what your belief orders of you if you are believers!?

446 From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say ?We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us,? in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said ?We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us,? it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.

They refuse to "sujud" by saying "we hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shephard us". Probably this is the noise and aversion referred to in 835 when they "let not any listen".

In this sign, the god also explains what the correct "sujud" is on hearing the words of the god, i.e. saying "we hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us".

Falling to the chins sujjadan could be either bowing the head until the chin touches the chest while saying "we hear and obey" or saying "we hear and obey" and also meaning it from the heart and saying it with conviction.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

17105 It is with truth that We have sent it down, and with truth it came down. We have not sent you except as a bearer of good news and a warner.

17106 With the Qur'an which We have gradually unfolded, so that you might convey it to mankind by stages. Indeed, We have sent it down step by step

17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.

17108 They say, "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."

17109 They fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.

17110 Say, "Call on God or call on al Rahman. Whichever it is you call on, to Him are the best names." Do not be loud/public in your contact prayer, nor quiet/private; but seek a path in between

17111 Say, "Praise is to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." Glorify Him greatly.

It could be that the "falling on chins prostrating" is linked to the contact prayer, when read in context.

Peace

Wakas

peace ts11,

I agree with the gist of what you said, except your last sentence. Please see the following links for further info

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419

Thoughts?

peace p1993,

There may be an association, but the literal or physical interpretation of that phrase has been refuted beyond doubt, see above.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas, everyone,

Whilst I am leaning towards the idiomatic interpretation of "fall to chins sujjadan" because of the association with saying "we hear and obey" on hearing the signs of the god, your third point in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419 would be applicable to the idiomatic interpretation too.

Because salat involves reciting or listening to the god's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to say "we hear and obey" to fall sujjadan, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds! It would seem logical that the audience should wait for the leader's announcement that he/she has finished reading the qur'aan and then everyone can fall sujjadan by saying "we hear and obey" with utmost humiliation. Then actually obeying those signs of the god in their practical day to day life would bring the sujud to completion.

I just gave the two possibilities and presently am leaning towards the idiomatic interpretation of fall to chins sujjadan. English language also has similar idiomatic usage of the word fall as explained in one of my earlier posts.

Another point is that physical prostration and bowing is directional by its nature whereas the god is in the east and the west and everywhere and piety is not to face the east or the west (2115, 2177). Saying "we hear and obey" on hearing the god's signs would be an unambiguous sujud only to the god and therefore would distinguish the sujud to the god from sujud to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137) especially at the two edges of the daytime/near parts of the night (11114).

Maybe that is why when the criminals will be required to perform sujud on the Last Day they will not be able to do so because they will be physically prostrating instead of saying "we hear and obey"

6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to sujud, but they will be unable to.
6843 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to sujud when they were whole and able.

I think we can all arrive at the unanimous conclusion that according to the qur'aan itself, "sujud" in the context of salaat can only be saying "we hear and obey" with utmost humiliation on hearing the god's signs which would cover both sujud and ruku3.

I request you or any other moderator to move this thread to the appropriate section of salaat for maximum benefit to readers.

Wakas

peace ts11, all,

your third point in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419 would be applicable to the idiomatic interpretation too.

No it would not, because this idiomatic expression (like all idiomatic expressions?) is not actualised/real/tangible, i.e. not physically present and carried out, it is a description of mindset/attitude/disposition. In a group setting, 4102, when the non-idiomatic plain old sjd is used, then it simply means 'an actionable representation of recognition/acknowledgement/hearing&obeying', which could be saying "we hear and obey". This is perhaps the most natural, simple and obvious one, hence maybe why AQ shows a preference for it.
The point about the idiomatic expression is, if one takes it as literal sometimes and idiomatic other times, or literal all the time then this causes significant problems within AQ. Thus, making the only possibility, taking it as idiomatic all the time (which is normal for idiomatic expressions anyway). The only problem in taking it as idiomatic all the time is for those who think sjd means physical prostration, as it essentially eliminates all evidence for sjd meaning physical prostration from AQ (not that there was much to begin with!), so no doubt, those who have this view will try and explain away the inconsistancies (like they already do I might add, see altafsir.com or M.Asad's notes previously mentioned). Of course, not even they can explain away the contradicitons and critical flaws satisfactorily. For those who do not take sjd as physical prostration, then everything slots in place nicely, resulting in no problems whatsoever.

I just gave the two possibilities and presently am leaning towards the idiomatic interpretation of fall to chins sujjadan. English language also has similar idiomatic usage of the word fall as explained in one of my earlier posts.

Also in AQ
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.

Implying one should "fall" on them seeing and listening, i.e. give them due care and attention.

I think we can all arrive at the unanimous conclusion that according to the qur'aan itself, "sujud" in the context of salaat can only be saying "we hear and obey" with utmost humiliation on hearing the god's signs which would cover both sujud and ruku3.

No. Firstly, perhaps you meant in the context of group salat (bond/homage). Secondly, AQ gives us a nice end-point expression, e.g. "we hear and obey", but that does not mean it is the only one and compulsory one.

In any case, I think it is safe to say we have pretty much solved sjd based on AQ.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

My understanding is that the regular/timed salaat is for the mumineen, and since I do not consider myself a mumin, I do not uphold it, thus do not bow and prostrate in it. But if I were to uphold it, then no I would not physically bow or prostrate as the evidence for doing this is weak from AQ.

I like the logic...let's all call ourselves non-believers so we dont have to pray! YAY! yay

Wakas

I like the logic...let's all call ourselves non-believers so we dont have to pray! YAY! yay

What you call yourself is irrelevant, as it doesn't change what is in the heart/mind/soul. Which brings me nicely to
http//www.free-minds.org/node/10

A concept you will probably not understand however.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

What you call yourself is irrelevant, as it doesn't change what is in the heart/mind/soul. Which brings me nicely to
http//www.free-minds.org/node/10

A concept you will probably not understand however.

4914 The Arabs said, "We acknowledge." Say, "You have not acknowledged; but you should say, 'We have submitted', for acknowledgement has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Compassionate.

4915 Those who acknowledge are those who acknowledge God and His messenger, then they do not doubt; they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.

4916 Say, "Are you teaching God about your system while God knows everything in the heavens and the earth? God is knowledgeable of all things."

4917 They think they are doing you a favor by having submitted. Say, "Do not think you are doing me any favors by your peacefully surrender. For it is God who is doing you a favor that He has guided you to the acknowledgement, if you are honest."

From the article

A person cannot appreciate or understand the values of Salat & Zakat if they have not taken the path of a) One GOD, and b) doing good works.

Only when such people attain 'certainty' can they move-on to the advanced level of having faith in the Messenger and then establishing the rules of 'Righteousness/Taqwaa' in their lives

It is an interesting thing, but please look at this verse

4615 We instructed the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty months. Until he has attained his maturity, and reaches forty years, he says "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. Let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted."

So basically this person has ackowledged God (IMO an acknowledger/mumin) and he is then saying that he is a submitter.

The words themselves point to the issue. "ackowledger" seems to describe a person who acknowledges God and "submitter" seem to describe someone who prays and follows God's comands and so on.

It is interesting though that 56, 629 and other things are adressed to those who ackowledge.

Also here

2277 O you who acknowledge, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed

Now, one could argue that one who simply ackowledges is not one who prays and so on so he/she should bow and prostrate and serve the Lord.

Besides, the Prophets/Messengers are described/called "submitters" and not "ackowledgers".

1072 "If you turn away, then I have not asked you for any wage. My wage comes from GOD. I have been commanded to be a submitter."

5111 I inspired the disciples that you shall acknowledge Me and My messenger; they Said, 'We acknowledge, and bear witness that we have submitted.'

Also

319 The system with God is submission. Those who received the book did not dispute except after the knowledge came to them out of jealousy between them. Whoever does not appreciate God's signs, then God is swift in computation.

So if we take the viewpoint of the article, when do you think you will become an ackowledger and how?

almarh0m

Peace TS11