Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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No offence intended, but it seems your reasoning/logic is significantly messed up, so I strongly recommend addressing this as well as increasing one's knowledge/information. I recommend reading up on critical thinking and logical fallacies.
how funny...
Just answer my question. And just because something doesnt accord with your views doesnt mean that it's wrong.Reflect on this
4914 The Arabs said, "We acknowledge." Say, "You have not acknowledged; but you should say, 'We have peacefully surrendered', for acknowledgement has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
4915 Those who acknowledge are those who acknowledge God and His messenger, then they do not doubt; they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.
Some Arabs were monotheists or semi-monotheists and submiters they observed the salaat, HOWEVER, they have not acknowledged the messenger and the Quran.
4615 We instructed the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his weaning lasts thirty months. Until he has attained his maturity, and reaches forty years, he says "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. Let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted."
OK, so this person is ackonwledging God, otherwise he wouldnt be praying to him and THEN, AFTER THAT, he says that he is a submitter. So first he acknowledges AND THEN he calls himself a submitter.
So a "mumin" would be a person who acknowledges God, believes in the Day of Judgments, the angels, etc.
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No, what is funny is how even after you have been corrected on numerous errors in your posts you still think I'm in the wrong if I bring up an issue with your posts. In fact, since my time on this forum you have the highest error rate in your posts that I can recall of any member. You can make of that what you will.
This will be my last response to you on this forum. If you persist in posting error-ridden and nonsensical replies to my posts/threads, then they may be deleted without notice. If you disagree, feel free to message admin, as I am only a moderator.
Re 4615
So basically this person has ackowledged God (IMO an acknowledger/mumin) and he is then saying that he is a submitter.
Not only does the verse not use the word "mumin" or "iman", it doesn't even state anything to do with the criteria of being considered a "mumin".
Further, it seems you are basing your understanding on an English translation's use of the word. This is a poor methodology.
The words themselves point to the issue. "ackowledger" seems to describe a person who acknowledges God and "submitter" seem to describe someone who prays and follows God's comands and so on.
By "God's commands" I hope you do not mean The Quran, as muslimeen existed prior to The Quran (FACT as stated in The Quran), thus we can confidently say The Quran has NOTHING to do with being muslim. Again, re-read the article and The Quran for the evidence.
It is interesting though that 56, 629 and other things are adressed to those who ackowledge.
ALL verses in The Quran regarding the regular/timed salat refer to the mumineen, NEVER muslimeen. Of course, by default, all mumineen are muslimeen, BUT all muslimeen are not mumineen .
So what you are indirectly stating is that the Prophets never fasted, never prayed and never gave money to charity?
How does saying they never refer to themselves as mumin translate to they never did those things? It is called logical precision. It is called humility. If Einstein never proclaimed to others "I am one of the greatest scientists of all-time", does that mean he never did anything great? Only in your mind is this considered sound reasoning.
Besides, why is our system/way of life/religion/deen called "Islam" - Submission? Why not just simply "Monotheism" or something similar?
The fact that you capitalise the words "Islam" and "Submission" shows your poor understanding of the words/concepts. Words such as "muslim", "islam", "hajj", "salat", "kafr", "ibadat", "sawm" etc are not special words. They existed prior to The Quran. The Quran didn't invent words, otherwise people wouldn't have had a clue what it was going on about. Once words become religious-ified, only then do they take on a "special" meaning, but how they were used originally was nothing special. The Quran explicitly states people came in islam to Solomon. It states everything in the universe is in a state of islam. It explicitly states Noah using the word "muslimeen" yet we know Arabic never existed then, and The Quran says God sends messengers in the language of their people, so we can confidently conclude the word "muslimeen" is not special. It is the meaning that takes precedence. Maybe in Noah's language, the equivalent of muslimeen was ochayethenoojimmy, or jimjamjimjamjimjammy or thallakanjeeeeemanatatsdaffar or any other word we can make up. In other words, not special words, and frankly, who cares. The word Noah used is irrelevant. He, like Abraham, like Moses, like all other prophets/messengers etc. used the equivalent in their own language.
Do you think God on the Day of Requital/Obligation, is going to care what you or I called ourselves? No, because it is irrelevant.
When we realise islam (small "i" has NOTHING to do with The Quran, nothing to do with any specific revelation, and is an ordinary word with an actual meaning, then we can contemplate on what God wants from us, and why all prophets describe themselves as muslimeen and never mumineen. It is because the former term is the minimum criteria, the benchmark, the state that everything in the universe is in willingly or unwillingly, and all that is needed of us is to do so willingly. If we wish to reach a higher level, then sure, aim for it, puruse it with all that God has given you, excel..... and each will be rewarded according to their deeds. I dont know about others, but I'll be very content with the benchmark, and if God gifts me with extra, then truly, I will know my God is Almighty, Merciful and He guides whomever He wills.
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No, what is funny is how even after you have been corrected on numerous errors in your posts you still think I'm in the wrong if I bring up an issue with your posts. In fact, since my time on this forum you have the highest error rate in your posts that I can recall of any member. You can make of that what you will.
This will be my last response to you on this forum. If you persist in posting error-ridden and nonsensical replies to my posts/threads, then they may be deleted without notice. If you disagree, feel free to message admin, as I am only a moderator.
So you are saying that I cant post my own opinion? You base the whole "error-rate" on the discussion we had about studyquran vs. Lane. I have learned from that, however. There is no need of accusing me of having "logical fallacy" or whatever just because I do not have the same opinion as you. How were my posts in this thread "nonsensical"? Please tell me exactly what was "nonsensical" according to you.
Anyhow, believe as you wish. If you think you are not yet a "mumin" and do not have to uphold the salah, then do that. Do what you think is right. I have merely stated my opinion. To say that I am wrong just because I have a different opinion than you is totally ignorant.
If you believe your opinion is correct, then do as you think, but dont say that I am "wrong". I believe this forum is about sharing ideas and opinions. And people dont always have the same ideas and opinions.
I know that the Quran has nothing to do with being a Muslim/Submitter.
I have said
So what you are indirectly stating is that the Prophets never fasted, never prayed and never gave money to charity?What I meant with that is you said that salah and so on is only for the "Mumin". However as I showed, the Quran says that the Prophets called themselves "Muslim". So I asked you if you think the Prophets prayed, fasted, etc. or not. Thats all.
Your arguement partly makes sense to me. I'll re-read the article and verses in the Quran.
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Peace Wakas, everyone,
Also in AQ
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.Implying one should "fall" on them seeing and listening, i.e. give them due care and attention.
Thank you for the sign. It will be an excellent addition to my arsenal
Firstly, perhaps you meant in the context of group salat (bond/homage).
Yes, I meant in the context of group salaat.
Secondly, AQ gives us a nice end-point expression, e.g. "we hear and obey", but that does not mean it is the only one and compulsory one.
What I meant was at least we can all unanimously agree about the preferred sujud of choice for the group salaat as evidenced from the qur'aan.
Another point that just occurred to me which proves that a human sujud to the god could not have been a physical directional prostration
2724 ?And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?
The hoopoe obviously cannot read people's minds and the god obviously is not a physical object existing in a certain direction. If someone observes another person physically prostrating at the two edges of the day, how can the observing person differentiate if the sujud is to the god or to the sun especially when the direction of the sujud is towards the path of the sun. It would appear as if the sujud is to the sun. There is no way to differentiate a sujud to the god from a sujud to the sun if the sujud is a physical direction prostration of any kind. ANY physical prostration that is directional, for example even bowing the head until the chin touches the chest could be interpreted as sujud to the sun. The only sujud that would be unambiguously directed to the god and therefore can be differentiated from a sujud to the sun would be a verbal + mental one like saying "we hear and obey". Conversely, a verbal + mental sujud to the god like saying "we hear and obey" cannot be interpreted by the hoopoe as being to the sun instead of the god.
This proves that the hoopoe must have found the people to be doing some kind of physical directional prostration which the hoopoe then interpreted as being to the sun instead to the god. If the actual sujud to the god being commanded to us is also a physical directional prostration then it would have been impossible for the hoopoe to say that the people were prostrating to the sun instead to the god, unless the god is also a physical object present only in a certain direction. Since the god is not a physical object existing only in a certain direction, and since the hoopoe cannot read people's minds, the only logical implication of the hoopoe's statement could be that the actual sujud to the god cannot be a physical directional prostration, otherwise it will be impossible to differentiate a sujud to the god from a sujud to the sun.
If, on the other hand, sujud to the sun is interpreted to be not a physical directional prostration, for example adore/honor/magnify the sun, then again it proves there is no physical directional prostration to the god either.
This proves that no matter how one interprets sujud to the sun, a human sujud to the god according to the qur'aan can only be a verbal + mental one like saying "we hear and obey" instead of a physical directional prostration of any kind.
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peace ts11,
What I meant was at least we can all unanimously agree about the preferred sujud of choice for the group salaat as evidenced from the qur'aan.
Thanks for clarifying.
As a side note, your point about the hoopoe was touched upon in one of the best threads on sjd. Another point of note, often not mentioned, is the following comment by mh
Look at this verse
?And to God yasjudo all that are in heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.?1315
If we accept that someone or something may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this UNWILLINGLY physical prostration! Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads UNWILLINGLY?
I think that it is clear that physical prostration with noses and foreheads has nothing to do with it.
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peace,
Sajood means fall on your chin, as well as fall on your head/nose. Any one of them is considered sajood. The problem arises when one tries to force one meaning to sajood.
I think a problem also arises when someone makes an unevidenced/baseless post, e.g. says "sajood" means XYZ and brings no Quranic evidence.
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Peace Wakas,
?I think a problem also arises when someone makes an unevidenced/baseless post, e.g. says "sajood" means XYZ and brings no Quranic evidence.?
And where is your Quranic evidence for your approach or the approach you follow. I will make the matter simple, specifically, where does the Quran say that every word in the Quran will have one and only one meaning. I think I have just given away my Quranic evidence for my approach without saying it.
By nature or by design every language has the ambiguity attributes built into it. Although some may be more efficient than the other, nonetheless, all speaking languages are ambiguous. This is the human instinct evidence for the problem at hand.
Remember Quran is easy to understand. One has to be aware of those who try hard to make Quran difficult.
Also, take note of the analogy, a big fish in a small pond may be almost nothing in the ocean. Yes, compare the membership of this forum vs. the total population of the world. Unless you think, this forum contains all the topnotch people in the world, one must question the validity of any resolution achieved in this forum.
Anyway, I was anticipating this kind of response from you.
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peace guest, all,
My Quranic evidence is every occurrence in The Quran, and the application of logic and cross-referencing. Feel free to read this thread, among others, for example.
I will make the matter simple, specifically, where does the Quran say that every word in the Quran will have one and only one meaning. I think I have just given away my Quranic evidence for my approach without saying it.
Exactly, and as I have already said in the forum, the only evidence for people who believe sjd=prostration is to say it can theoretically mean this in a few occurrences, just like it can theoretically mean "salute", "stand up" or any other Classical Arabic meaning, and if you found a Classical Arabic meaning saying "handstand" you could say it means that too based on this methodology. In reality, this is no evidence.
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Preace Wakas,
I am assuming you are relying on Arabic dictionary to extract meaning of Quranic words to interpret Quranic verses. This is a flawed approach because it will not work for all cases. Here is why
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The God protected the Quran because human cannot be trusted with this responsibility
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On the contrary, you trust human with the preservation of the correct meaning of Arabic words prevalent at the time of revelation. Isn?t this the same as trusting the hadith? Who validated the dictionary? Where are the criteria?
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Now, you are seeing Quran through the eyes of a flawed dictionary
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And don?t forget the satan. He knows you will be doing this, therefore, he will corrupt it to lead people away from God?s path
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Therefore, this approach leads to an erroneous understanding of the Quran
Better approach
- The God created us with the ability to understand His creation and the Quran
- Therefore, use our ability and seek the God?s help
- That it
Since the God has bestowed some believer with more wisdom than other, we can accept their interpretation of Quran only when it agrees with our built-in instinct.
Since salat is mandatory on all humankind, it must be done by all, even if one is sick or bedridden.
When one is bedridden, his sjd is fall on the chin.
When one is physically fit his sjd is fall on his head/face or the chin.
When one is incapable of doing the above two, mental sjd is sufficient. Of course in the other two cases it is the mental sjd that leads to the physical act.
Quran contains straightforward and multiple-meaning verses. It is the multiple-meaning words that make a verse multiple-meaning. There is nothing wrong with multiple-meaning verses, believers can use them, only the hypocrite will extract unquranic meaning to distract good people away from the God.
These are my understanding.
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peace guest,
Your post disappoints me. If you had carefully read my first sentence you would have seen my methodology is not based on a dictionary. In fact, how you came to this conclusion is anyone's guess.
Also, some of the info in your post has no Quranic basis, and are simply unevidenced statements. That is not how I prefer to discuss and learn. The forum rules also do not take kindly to such posts, but each to their own. Peace.
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Salam,
- The God protected the Quran because human cannot be trusted with this responsibility
Since the God has bestowed some believer with more wisdom than other, we can accept their interpretation of Quran only when it agrees with our built-in instinct.
Who validated their interpretation? Where are the criteria?
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Peace Wakas,
The answer is in my previous post. Hear it is again.
"......when it agrees with our built-in instinct."
Peace Brother
In one of you post above you saidQuran contains straightforward and multiple-meaning verses. It is the multiple-meaning words that make a verse multiple-meaning. There is nothing wrong with multiple-meaning verses, believers can use them, only the hypocrite will extract unquranic meaning to distract good people away from the God.
These are my understanding.
Can you please give a few examples of "THESE MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSE"?
Regards -
In one of you post above you said Can you please give a few examples of "THESE MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSE"?
Regards37, 754, 1778 and others.
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Peace Wakas,
?In fact, how you came to this conclusion is anyone's guess.?
My conclusion is based on the following
Your post on this thread ??..and if you found a Classical Arabic meaning??
And your post on other thread
77 General Issues / Questions / General Issues / Questions / Re The Message - Second Edition
on May 31, 2009, 032935 PM
peace progressive1993,How many mistakes can you make in one post?
You quoted the wrong verse, it is not 6115, it is 2173.
The Arabic in question in 6115 is "rahim" NOT "rahman". There is a difference.
Again, you make the same mistake in your 9128-129, it is "raheem" not "rahman". There is a difference.
Then you make a mistake when you say "this is from Lane" and what you quote is from Project Root List which uses multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries as blatantly stated on its homepage, so unless you have went through Lane yourself and seen that is exactly and only what it says, then you are mistaken. Of course, PRL uses a lot of Lane's Lexicon, but that does not mean they are equivalent.
Also, if you are using Project Root List, please use the cross-reference! It clearly separates out the occurrences of "rahim" and "rahman" for everyone to see. If you had done so, it would have prevented your mistakes.
And this
88 General Issues / Questions / Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re Kill Your Egos?
on May 29, 2009, 051835 PM
In addition to application of reasoning/logic, one can also cross-reference"...faoqtuloo anfusakum..."
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Qaf-Ta-Lam
Nun-Fa-Siin -
Dear Progress
1This question was not directed to you.
2If you have come in then please post the actual arabic verses (because it is Quran) + their possible meanings.
Regardsdoesnt matter if you have directed it towards me. The forum is for everyone and you always join in the debated that I have with others. So there should be no problem.
Just see how people disagree with the translations/interpretations about the verses which I have provided you with. Go search the web and you will find out. Bedies, I have already made clear in one of the past discussion we had that language is irrelevant. The sincere and knowledgeable will understand God's word no matter which language it is in.
Since you are never content when I post a verse in english (which is totally unjustified, btw) i didnt post one this time. I left it for you to look up in the original arabic. If you want I can post different translations of the verses, which alone will prove that they have multiple-meaings.
Peace
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doesnt matter if you have directed it towards me. The forum is for everyone and you always join in the debated that I have with others. So there should be no problem.
Just see how people disagree with the translations/interpretations about the verses which I have provided you with. Go search the web and you will find out. Bedies, I have already made clear in one of the past discussion we had that language is irrelevant. The sincere and knowledgeable will understand God's word no matter which language it is in.
Since you are never content when I post a verse in english (which is totally unjustified, btw) i didnt post one this time. I left it for you to look up in the original arabic. If you want I can post different translations of the verses, which alone will prove that they have multiple-meaings.
PeacePeace Brother
I believe only in Quran not in Translations which are used to satisfy one's own agenda.
Regards
