Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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peace guest,
Once again, you have shown your deductive/reasoning skills to be very poor. If you had bothered to read the homepage of Project Root List, or even had a read of any root entry, you will see it utilises Quranic usage heavily (i.e. full cross-reference), in fact, it is integral to it. Thus, to imply my methodology is based on a dictionary is laughable. Let me make it clear for you and everyone else if a dictionary says word XYZ means ABC but this meaning does not fit with The Quran's usage and/or logic, I will reject the dictionary meaning; The Quran and the methodology it promotes is the primary criterion.
It is not a surprise to me however that there may be a correlation between someone having faulty deductive/reasoning skills and this same person holding an unevidenced view such as sjd means physical prostration.
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Peace Brother
I believe only in Quran not in Translations which are used to satisfy one's own agenda.
RegardsFine. Do what you like. Check Quran translations. I suggest www.quranix.net
Check the verses that I have given you. There are footnotes there explaining what the translators think of the verses. Also compare those translations with Yusuf Ali's or so. Then you will see if it's multiple-meaning or not. Furthermore, you can see for yurself when you try to understand/translate a verse.Peace
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Fine. Do what you like. Check Quran translations. I suggest www.quranix.net
Check the verses that I have given you. There are footnotes there explaining what the translators think of the verses. Also compare those translations with Yusuf Ali's or so. Then you will see if it's multiple-meaning or not. Furthermore, you can see for yurself when you try to understand/translate a verse.Peace
Peace
I only believe in Quran not their translations.Only Quran is divine not traslations.
Regards -
Peace
I only believe in Quran not their translations.Only Quran is divine not traslations.
RegardsThen dont ask about multiple-meaning verses, because they become apparent in translations. Furthrmore, just check the verses that I have given you.
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Then dont ask about multiple-meaning verses, because they become apparent in translations. Furthrmore, just check the verses that I have given you.
Peace
Whichever verse you want to post,post it here in arabic and then traslate it.
Otherwise bye.
Regards -
Peace
Whichever verse you want to post,post it here in arabic and then traslate it.
Otherwise bye.
Regardsrotfl
you know that I dont speak arabic. Anyways, the Quran says that it has multiple-meaning verses in 37. Check it for yourself.
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Peace Wakas,
You advocated this link http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
which says this
Aim To list ALL the roots used in Al Quran, including possible meanings (from SEVERAL Classical Arabic dictionaries/lexicons), give ALL examples of usage (allowing cross-reference) and detailed grammar information for EVERY word used. Its goal is to be the most comprehensive Quran study tool in the English language.
It is not as pure as you claim, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude what I have concluded.
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peace guest,
If a person read that paragraph and deduced my methodology is based on a dictionary, then I would consider this person to have either
poor deductive/reasoning skills
or
they cannot read properlySince your writing/posts seem to be intelligible/readable this would imply it is unlikely to be the latter.
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Peace Wakas,
You have accused me of not having good deductive reasoning capability without any justification. Now, allow me to give you a taste of your own medicine. Lets find how good is your reasoning power and judgment. I think the God wants to expose you for what you are.
- You admonished a person for using PRL
?Then you make a mistake when you say "this is from Lane" and what you quote is from Project Root List which uses multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries as blatantly stated on its homepage, so unless you have went through Lane yourself and seen that is exactly and only what it says, then you are mistaken. Of course, PRL uses a lot of Lane's Lexicon, but that does not mean they are equivalent.?
Then you advise other to use PRL
?In addition to application of reasoning/logic, one can also cross-reference
?...faoqtuloo anfusakum...?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Qaf-Ta-Lam
Nun-Fa-Siin?Deductive Reasoning Flip-Flopper and/or loss of credibility
To err is human. In this case, one must admit their mistake to regain credibility.
- You prohibit physical prostration to the God for all mankind based on an incomplete post. This is what you said about the referenced post
?As a side note, your point about the hoopoe was touched upon in one of the best threads on sjd.?
The post did not show us how his sjd meaning works for all the sjd verses. He carefully chose selected verses to show his point of view. When one is making such an enormous claim it must be a complete work and vetted thoroughly. Yet you advocate this article. What a poor judgment.
The referenced post translates sjd=submit but you say there is more to it as evident from the quote below
??it can theoretically mean this in a few occurrences, just like it can theoretically mean "salute", "stand up" or any other Classical Arabic meaning?.?
Are you flip-flopping again? Where is your deductive skill?
- Finally, I would like you provide me with one and only one meaning of sjd. I plan to use it to disprove your sjd concept/theory via contradiction, God willing.
Also, please define what submit is i.e. what do you really mean by it, specific actions. This definition is from your favorite post sjd, where sjd=submit.
Thanks.
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Salam guest,
Just an observation, your point 1 isn't admonishing someone just for using PRL but for mistakenly assuming/quoting thinking Lane's = PRL while using PRL, when PRL uses multiple dictionaries. If they had checked, and were certain that a particular piece of information in PRL is from Lane's and not from any other dictionary or if they even knew of that differentiation, is what that quote is about. It would be prudent to do this since many might not be aware that such a difference exists. It doesn't take away from advising someone to use PRL, but to use it with the knowledge of what it is and what it contains.
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Salam guest,
Just an observation, your point 1 isn't admonishing someone just for using PRL but for mistakenly assuming/quoting thinking Lane's = PRL while using PRL, when PRL uses multiple dictionaries. If they had checked, and were certain that a particular piece of information in PRL is from Lane's and not from any other dictionary or if they even knew of that differentiation, is what that quote is about. It would be prudent to do this since many might not be aware that such a difference exists. It doesn't take away from advising someone to use PRL, but to use it with the knowledge of what it is and what it contains.
Dear Peace
There is nothing which is known as "multiple dictionries".These dictionaries should be named ,as they have mentioned about Lane so that the reader can verify their reference.Regards
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Dear QS,
The first half of your sentence makes no sense because there is a phrase known as "multiple dictionaries" in usage. The references are/will be given with the roots so that you can verify them additionally with the sources. It is an ongoing process and it's progress is listed as 69%. Verification is a tough process, especially when multiple parties are involved.
Regards
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Dear QS,
The first half of your sentence makes no sense because there is a phrase known as "multiple dictionaries" in usage. The references are/will be given with the roots so that you can verify them additionally with the sources. It is an ongoing process and it's progress is listed as 69%. Verification is a tough process, especially when multiple parties are involved.
Regards
Peace
Instead of using "multiple dictionaries" why not to name them.
Regards -
peace guest,
Your posts just get worse and worse. I find your archetype interesting, but mainly amusing.
Re your point (1)
Already easily shown to be incorrect by savage_carrot. Showing that your deductive/reasoning ability is indeed poor.Re your point (2)
You prohibit physical prostration to the God for all mankind based on an incomplete post.
I never prohibited anything. I asked for evidence.
The post did not show us how his sjd meaning works for all the sjd verses
Did I say it analyses all verses? No.
Does PRL provide all occurences? Yes.When one is making such an enormous claim it must be a complete work and vetted thoroughly. Yet you advocate this article. What a poor judgment.
What is hilarious about this view of yours is you are the one who made several unevidenced statements about sjd in your previous posts, yet seemingly advocate an evidence based approach here.
Secondly, I referenced a thread, not a post or an article. It seems you cannot even get this basic point right, even though I used the word "thread"!The referenced post translates sjd=submit but you say there is more to it as evident from the quote below
??it can theoretically mean this in a few occurrences, just like it can theoretically mean "salute", "stand up" or any other Classical Arabic meaning?.?
Are you flip-flopping again? Where is your deductive skill?
My statement was referring to your methodology, not my own. Furthermore, even if you took it as my own view I used the word "theoretical", that does not mean it is my view. For example, it is theoretically possible you are an alien from outer space from Jupiter's moon called Titan.
This shows you either cannot read properly or have poor deductive/reasoning skills.- Finally, I would like you provide me with one and only one meaning of sjd. I plan to use it to disprove your sjd concept/theory via contradiction, God willing.
It means to give recognition/acknowledgement. Let us know where you find the contradiction if you speak the truth.
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Peace
Instead of using "multiple dictionaries" why not to name them.
RegardsDear, you really must read my post where I answer you because I have...Behold!...given you the answer to... Behold!...the same question.
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Peace Wakas,
- ?Already easily shown to be incorrect by savage_carrot. Showing that your deductive/reasoning ability is indeed poor."
Let me show you my step-by-step analysis of your statement. Hopefully, this will lead to a common understanding.
?Then you make a mistake when you say "this is from Lane" and what you quote is from Project Root List which uses multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries as blatantly stated on its homepage, so unless you have went through Lane yourself and seen that is exactly and only what it says, then you are mistaken. Of course, PRL uses a lot of Lane's Lexicon, but that does not mean they are equivalent.?
Fact 1 Lane does not use multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries (pure)
Fact 2 PRL use multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries (impure)
Fact 3 You are mad because he is citing from impure source and calling it pure
Fact 4 Warning ? Don?t say/do that unless it is the same in both sources in this specific case (admonishment)Deduction Use Lane (pure/trusted) and do not use PRL (impure/untrusted)
Contradiction Another place you say to use PRL (impure/untrusted).
- ?I never prohibited anything. I asked for evidence.?
Fact 1 You say sjd is not physical prostration
Fact 2 Quran calls for sjd
Fact 3 Many people prostrate per Quranic sjdDeduction You are telling (implied) those people not to do physical prostration
- ?Secondly, I referenced a thread, not a post or an article. It seems you cannot even get this basic point right, even though I used the word "thread"!?
Since you were magnifying mh in your post and give that mh is the owner/initiator of the sjd thread, I used post to refer to mh sjd position.
- ?It means to give recognition/acknowledgement. Let us know where you find the contradiction if you speak the truth.?
I need further clarification to execute my plan. Please verify the following assertion. Thanks.
Sjd= recognition or acknowledgement (multiple-meaning)
Acknowledgement = mental or physical; or both simultaneously
Recognition = mental or physical; or both simultaneously
Meaning of mental I can mentally slap x and x can mentally slap me back. -
peace guest,
Your reasoning is hilarious, and borderline unintelligible. So you did prove me wrong, because I said your posts were intelligible previously, I would like to retract that statement.
Fact 1 Lane does not use multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries (pure)
Your fact 1 is incorrect, as Lane uses multiple Classical Arabic dictionaries/sources, as stated in its preface/intro. It is clear you do not understand my statement that you referenced.
Deduction Use Lane (pure/trusted) and do not use PRL (impure/untrusted)
The fact that you deduced this shows the monumental irrationality of your reasoning, so much so, that I'm slightly impressed by how bad it is. Either that or you are too arrogant/stubborn to admit you are wrong. Either way, its not good.
Fact 3 Many people prostrate per Quranic sjd
Do they prostrate to the chin do they?
Deduction You are telling (implied) those people not to do physical prostration
Ahh, so now its "implied" in brackets now is it? Before it was I "prohibited". You are a clear twister of words when cornered.
Since you were magnifying mh in your post and give that mh is the owner/initiator of the sjd thread, I used post to refer to mh sjd position.
Ahh, so referencing what someone said is magnifying them is it? Let me know which dictionary you are using so I can note not to buy it.
I used "thread", you incorrectly used "post". You cant even admit you made a mistake on this simple point. What does your dictionary say about the word "credibility"?
I need further clarification to execute my plan. Please verify the following assertion. Thanks.
Sjd= recognition or acknowledgement (multiple-meaning)
Acknowledgement = mental or physical; or both simultaneously
Recognition = mental or physical; or both simultaneouslyI will play your game and clarify
I will opt for sjd = acknowledgement.
The English definition of "acknowledgement" is not restricted to physical or mental, or both simultaneously. In any case, I will use Edip Yuksel's tactic, and opt for "physical" knowing that every act including the chemicals in our brain responsible for making decisions etc can be classed as physical. ;D
Let us know when you find a contradiciton in my sjd view according to your "plan". Don't keep us waiting now.
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Peace to all,
Here is my solution to the hoopoe issue related to sjd discussed in this thread and other thread on this forum.
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Hoopoe sees Solomon performing contact prayer (salat) in accordance with 17110 ? ??.You shall not utter your contact prayer too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone? i.e. hoopoe hears Solomon say ?praise be to God, lord of the worlds??? and sees him prostrate physically on his face
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Then hoopoe sees the women ruler (Sheba) performing contact prayer (salat) something like this saying loudly ? thank you for money and children, oh sun god please give us more wealth, let us know who and what should be sacrificed next, and how about the goat we sacrifice last week for you, did you like it, ??..? and physically prostrating on her face
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The conclusion is very easy, since the Quran is easy to understand. So, the hoopoe concludes that the women ruler is worshiping the sun
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The angles records what hoopoe witnessed and as such the approach is compliant with 5017 - Two recording (angels), at right and at left, are constantly recording
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We are given the ability to determine if the human contact prayer id dedicated to the God or someone else, we have the ability to see sun, trees, moon but we do not have the ability to see their physical prostration, as for the Jinn we can neither see them nor their physical prostration
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Peace everyone,
Those pagans could have said "o god" or "o lord" and meant the sun because for them the sun was their god. They didn't have to say "o sungod". If you consider the sun as your god you will be most likely saying "o god" or "o lord" to the sun instead of "o sungod" because for you the sun is your god. Therefore, there would be no way for the hoopoe to distinguish unless the hoopoe could have read their hearts and minds. If someone says "yaa rabbi" and the hoopoe hears it, how can the hoopoe distinguish if it is meant for the god or if it is meant for the sun?
Any understanding of a sign has to account for ALL POSSIBILITIES. Conversely, any rebuttal of a certain understanding has to take into consideration ALL POSSIBILITIES. The above possibility/scenario stated by me nevertheless is a very likely possibility/scenario. Actually I think it is the most likely possibility/scenario and I will prove that from the qur'aan itself
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said ?This is my lord.? But when it disappeared he said ?I do not like those that disappear.?
Please note that Abraham did not say "this is my planet lord"
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said ?This is my lord.? But when it disappeared he said ?If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the wicked people!?
Please note that he did not say "this is my moon lord"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said ?This is my lord, this is bigger.? But when it disappeared he said ?My people, I am innocent of that which you have set up.?
Please note that he did not say "this is my sun lord". Please note that he even called it "akbar".
7138 And We let the Children of Israel cross the sea, then they came upon a people who were devoted to idols made for them; they said ?O Moses, make for us a god like they have gods?? He said ?You are an ignorant people!?
Please note that the pagans were saying "god" when referring to their pagan god, and did not say "a pagan god".
Because the true lord is present everywhere, the only way we can turn our faces to our true lord is mentally and the way prescribed by the qur'aan to sujud to our true lord on hearing his signs is by saying "we hear and obey".
Q.E.D. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.
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The consequences of giving hoopoe the ability to read hearts and minds are quite severe. For example would he be able to read God?s mind. Like you said the concept has to work for all possibilities. We (human) are created in the best design and we don?t even have the ability to read minds, how could we allow hoopoe to have such capability. Also, we do not find any evidence in the Quran about special power being given to hoopoe. Therefore, I negate the idea.
From non-religious perspective the ability to read humans mind be blatant violation privacy law and human dignity.
Besides, reading minds contradict many Quranic verses. Some of them are listed below
6713 - Whether you keep your utterances secret, or declare them, He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
644 - He knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and He knows everything you conceal and everything you declare. GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
3538 - GOD is the Knower of the future of the heavens and the earth. He is the Knower of all innermost thoughts.
232 - They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."
My opinion is that only the God knows our innermost thoughts.
Praying in a particular direction is not an issue because you believe ?the true lord is present everywhere?. Therefore, I find the Lord in the direction I pray. No big deal.
Your point on "o god" or "o lord" is valid. Thank you for bringing it up in the discussion. Thanks for you service. I need to ponder on it for a while. I hope our Lord will guide us to the proper resolution of the problem at hand. Our Lord please help us. Thank you.
