Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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peace Sarah,
AQ = al quran
There are some articles on the relationship between the regular timed salat and reading/reflection/oration of AQ, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/salat-Hamed
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmHaving said that though, the best research is to simply go through the occurrences of slw in AQ and extract all possible information, see what it says.
Same with SBH etc.
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I forgot to say, if you meant SBH and the timing aspect to it in AQ, e.g. 20130, then some equate it to the regular timed "salat". Of course, this has no evidence from AQ, and actually, AQ refutes it, because the timings contradict each other if an attempt to match them is made. Now, I say they contradict, but more correctly, when I studied it I tried all possible ways I could think of to make them match but failed, and I have never read a post or article that has managed it. Thus, my conclusion is that they are to be taken as idiomatic expressions, meaning all the time. As far as I'm aware, this is commonly stated in dictionaries and even by traditional scholars.
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Why I asked about tasbih is because I was wondering if you thought of it as different from salat anyway I will look at the links.
If SBH and Salat are different, those timings wouldn?t be for salat in reference to 20130. Also the purpose isn?t remembrance it?s so that you can ?tarda?. ? so we can be contentment? Joyful? happy?I don?t recall salat having that..
Also I thought of Salat as a state we do standing but I?m not so sure now.
When I read the verses 3191 although it doesn?t mention salat, it mentions remembering God I thought maybe it?s not standing.(3191)
? 3191 (Asad) who remember God when they stand, and when they sit, and when they lie down to sleep, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth "O our Sustainer! Thou hast not created this without meaning and purpose. Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Keep us safe, then, from suffering through fir
And if part of salat?s purpose is remembering then maybe it doesn?t mean standing but maybe this verse is just for different times.
anyway thanks for the links
salam
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You may have a point about "tarda", as in it is not directly linked/associated with "salat", implying a possible difference/differentiation in what salat and SBH acheive.
According to my studies of AQ, being stationary (i.e. one location) is the preference, not necessarily standing. Standing is more of an interpretation.
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Peace truthseeker11,
You say
?Salaat is for the god's remembrance and involves reading the qur'aan in a moderate tone (17110). The pre-salaat washing or tayammam is also necessary. The person in the example given above by you cannot even establish salaat as required by the qur'aan so there is no sujud during salaat either. I was referring to the sujud during salaat, not to any sujud, so your example is invalid and irrelevant and my point of sujud during salaat being physical + mental stands.?
In the example cited by me the person in question is washed daily (sponge bath) by nurses to maintain good hygiene. Family member may perform this job as well. Also, rich believing family members can have this service performed as many time as deemed necessary. Why couldn?t the person use this wash to satisfy the pre-salat washing? Remember he is aware of the surrounding; therefore, he may perform salat right after the wash. The question to you is how does he perform sujud during salat?
In your previous post you said
?No more comments from me on this issue because otherwise it would become logical fallacy of repetition (argumentum ad nauseum).?
Then you did the very thing you said you are not going to do i.e. provide new comments to my post. But that?s not the worst of it; you showed extreme arrogance by making such statement. You implied that you were right and that was the end of it, even though your post on this thread and elsewhere proves otherwise. What kind of logical thinking is this? I will have to say that this is neither smart nor a righteous behavior. Please be open-minded and leave the door open for different views.
Then you said
?From the above the only logical deduction would be that the preferred sujud to the god during salaat according to the qur'aan is saying "we hear and obey" with utmost humiliation on hearing the god's signs.?
?Only logical deduction? implies that you are 100% correct. What is the rationale behind such thinking? Did you receive a revelation from the God or are you infallible?
I asked you to justify how your approach works for a deaf believer. Instead of answering the question you said this
?Believer's are supposed to perform sujud on hearing the god's signs (17107). If the believer cannot even hear then how can he/she be expected to perform sujud? If the deaf "hears" the god's signs by sign language, then he/she can perform sujud by using sign language to communicate "we hear and obey".?
First - 17107 has nothing to do with sujud during salat. According to you this discussion is about sujud during the salat. Then, why are you bring this subject up.
Second - your question ?If the believer cannot even hear then how can he/she be expected to perform sujud?? implies that salat is not mandatory for deaf believers. This is contrary to many Quranic verses. This kind of absurdity arises only with your concept of sujud. Please note that salat is mandatory for all mature people of all times. Only believers comply with this requirement of the God. The exception is no salat/sujut when one is in the state of intoxication. A normal believer can become deaf due to an accident or as war casualty. In this situation he can recite Quran and know how to perform physical sujud but your idea will put this person in the category of non-salat performer (disbeliever?)
Here is an instance of how you violated your own definition of sujud during salat (we hear and obey) by equating ?hear? with ?sign language?. You are giving new meaning to the word ?hear?? Is this Quranic?
Here is another question you should ponder on When the whole Quran is being continually receited from begining to the end, do you sit or stand still for the entire duration and keep saying "we hear and obey"
You say ?He does not call the hoopoe a liar. He says that he will see if he told the truth or if he lied. That does not mean that the hoopoe is a liar.?
Solomon may had a good reason for suspecting hoopoe (may be he lied to Solomon before) otherwise Solomon will be guilty of violating Quranic verse 4912 - O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
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Peace guest,
In the example cited by me the person in question is washed daily (sponge bath) by nurses to maintain good hygiene. Family member may perform this job as well. Also, rich believing family members can have this service performed as many time as deemed necessary. Why couldn?t the person use this wash to satisfy the pre-salat washing? Remember he is aware of the surrounding; therefore, he may perform salat right after the wash. The question to you is how does he perform sujud during salat?
You conveniently ignored an important part of what I said in my last post. Here it is again
Salaat is for the god's remembrance and involves reading the qur'aan in a moderate tone (17110). The pre-salaat washing or tayammam is also necessary. The person in the example given above by you cannot even establish salaat as required by the qur'aan so there is no sujud during salaat either. I was referring to the sujud during salaat, not to any sujud, so your example is invalid and irrelevant and my point of sujud during salaat being physical + mental stands.
I have no cure for your inability to comprehend what I said in bold above and then question me again about something I have already answered appropriately.
First - 17107 has nothing to do with sujud during salat. According to you this discussion is about sujud during the salat. Then, why are you bring this subject up.
17107 is about their sujud when the god's words are recited to them. In a group salaat the god's words are recited to others. So 17107 has everything to do with sujud during salaat too, in addition to sujud outside salaat.
Second - your question ?If the believer cannot even hear then how can he/she be expected to perform sujud?? implies that salat is not mandatory for deaf believers. This is contrary to many Quranic verses. This kind of absurdity arises only with your concept of sujud. Please note that salat is mandatory for all mature people of all times.
Strawman fallacy.
It does not imply that salaat is not mandatory for deaf believers. It just applies to performing sujud when the god's revelations are recited to them. Is that not what 17107 and other signs say? Don't they clearly talk about sujud when the god's revelations are recited to them? Is "recited to them"/"yutlaa alaihim" same as reciting to oneself? Do you have trouble comprehending the god's words?
Sujud as mentioned in the qur'aan in the context of the god's revelations and salaat is always when the god's revelations are recited TO SOMEONE ELSE. I would appreciate if you can reference a sign in evidence of sujud on reciting the god's revelations oneself. The god chooses his words very carefully and we cannot attribute lies to the god by saying that the god meant something when he never said it. Where does it say to perform sujud in response to reciting the god's revelations oneself?
Now you tell me, how can a deaf person know what is being recited to him (not by himself)? How does the deaf person know if it is the god's words being recited or something else being recited to him?
Here is an instance of how you violated your own definition of sujud during salat (we hear and obey) by equating ?hear? with ?sign language?. You are giving new meaning to the word ?hear?? Is this Quranic?
2285 and 2451 refer to all believers including the deaf ones right? You tell me how can deaf persons say "we hear and obey" when the god's signs are recited to them?
Here is another question you should ponder on When the whole Quran is being continually receited from begining to the end, do you sit or stand still for the entire duration and keep saying "we hear and obey"
While salaat includes recitation of the god's words, recitation of the god's words is not always necessarily during salaat. Where does it say that the people listening to the god's signs should stand or sit still when the god's revelations are being recited to them? It says to stand/persist for salaat or to stand/persist to warn others (742) but where does it say to stand or sit still to listen to someone else reciting the god's words to you?
If people keep saying "we hear and obey" while the other person is reciting the god's words then how will they be able to hear the signs in entirety in the first place? Actually they will be lying if they keep saying say "we hear and obey" during the recitation because then whenever they say that they will miss out on what is being recited and they are not actually hearing that part. It might also cause other people to not be able to listen to the recitation because of some people continually saying "we hear and obey" during the recitation. When the god's words are being continually recited, all the signs are one block and so the people listening can say "we hear and obey" at the end of the recitation. If there is a break in the recitation then they can say it when the break occurs. This is common sense.
Solomon may had a good reason for suspecting hoopoe (may be he lied to Solomon before) otherwise Solomon will be guilty of violating Quranic verse 4912 - O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Firstly, 4912 says "katheer min al-zann"/much suspicion/imagination/conjecture/assumption/thought, and not just "al-zann" which would imply any zann. Why are you mistranslating "katheer" to "any" and why are you mistranslating "baadh"/some to "even a little bit" thereby attributing lies to the god?
378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the book so that you may think it is from the book, while it is not from the book, and they say it is from the god while it is not from the god, and they say about the god lies while they know.
Secondly, Solomon was trying to verify the information brought by the hoopoe. We are all advised to do that per 1736
Thirdly, suspecting someone does not mean they are actually a liar. "Maybe he lied to Solomon before" is an assumption/conjecture on your part which falls under "al-zann". You made an explicit statement in your post that the hoopoe IS a liar without any evidence to back up this accusation/statement.
Here is what you said in one of your earlier posts
Also, don't forget hoopoe is a lier as evident from below verse
2727 - (Solomon) said, "We will see if you told the truth, or if you are a liar.
NO MORE COMMENTS FROM ME ON THIS ISSUE UNLESS YOU COMPREHEND MY POSTS PROPERLY AND COME UP WITH LOGICALLY SOUND ANSWERS. OTHERWISE I WILL JUST HAVE TO SAY PEACE AS PER 2563 AND 2855
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Peace truthseeker11,
You said
"You conveniently ignored an important part of what I said in my last post. Here it is again
Quote from truthseeker11
Salaat is for the god's remembrance and involves reading the qur'aan in a moderate tone (17110). The pre-salaat washing or tayammam is also necessary. The person in the example given above by you cannot even establish salaat as required by the qur'aan so there is no sujud during salaat either. I was referring to the sujud during salaat, not to any sujud, so your example is invalid and irrelevant and my point of sujud during salaat being physical + mental stands."I did not ignored it intentionally. I answered it mentally and forgot to bring it out. I am sorry about that and do thank you for giving me another opportunity to address the issue.
According to you, sujud during salat is accomplished by saying "we hear and obey". It must be physically said and cannot be done mentally.
Further, in a group salat one person (lead) recite the Quran and rest says "we hear and obey" at the end of recitation.
These facts are derived from the following quote of yours
"If people keep saying "we hear and obey" while the other person is reciting the god's words then how will they be able to hear the signs in entirety in the first place? Actually they will be lying if they keep saying say "we hear and obey" during the recitation because then whenever they say that they will miss out on what is being recited and they are not actually hearing that part. It might also cause other people to not be able to listen to the recitation because of some people continually saying "we hear and obey" during the recitation. When the god's words are being continually recited, all the signs are one block and so the people listening can say "we hear and obey" at the end of the recitation. If there is a break in the recitation then they can say it when the break occurs. This is common sense."
Here is my answer that disproves your sujud theory
Pre-salat wash In the example cited by me the person in question is washed daily (sponge bath) by nurses to maintain good hygiene. Family member may perform this job as well. Also, rich believing family members can have this service performed as many time as deemed necessary. Why couldn?t the person use this wash to satisfy the pre-salat washing? Remember he is aware of the surrounding; therefore, he may perform salat right after the wash.
Reading the qur'aan in a moderate tone (17110) The person (patient) is doing the recitation from within himself but the sound (voice) is not coming out due to the impact of venom in his body. He knows that his voice is not working because he cannot hear it via his ears. Now, I will change the situation a bit so that he does not have to recite the Quran in a moderate tone i.e. his visitors (relatives) is holding a group salat in his room and the patient is performing salat with them (not leading the salat). Therefore, my question is still valid and here it is again
The question to you is how does he perform sujud during salat?
The deaf person example also disproves your sujud theory i.e. he cannot say "we hear and obey" thus nullifying your theory.
You say "Now you tell me, how can a deaf person know what is being recited to him (not by himself)? How does the deaf person know if it is the god's words being recited or something else being recited to him?"
Why are you asking me that question. I am using that example to disprove your theory via contradiction. You are contradicting your own theory via your own question. How silly. I know it does not work. Therefore, I am abandoning your theory, so should you. My theory is free of such absurdity because it is base on the concept Quran is easy to understand.
You say
"Firstly, 4912 says "katheer min al-zann"/much suspicion/imagination/conjecture/assumption/thought, and not just "al-zann" which would imply any zann. Why are you mistranslating "katheer" to "any" and why are you mistranslating "baadh"/some to "even a little bit" thereby attributing lies to the god?"
First - Taking dictionary meaning to define Quran is same as believing in hadith. No difference. Anyone who does this, have surrender their God given basic instinct to a dictionary. How awful. Basic instinct is used to determine right from wrong. Therefore, it must be used very carefully. Going to hell or heaven is dependent on decision made via this basic instinct. Please sink the dictionary you are using in the depth of ocean and forget about it.
Second - The meaning you provided for 4912 is flawed. It does not satisfy the basic instinct of mine. Here is why
If you use "much suspicion" then you must define the threshold value that determines how much suspicion is allowed and what is not allowed. This is pure absurdity. This is something satan would advocate to lead us astray.
The rationale for the meaning "some" is same as above rationale.
Are you trying to mislead us, are you twisting the God's word to gain mislay worldly gain? I hope the answer is a no for your own good.
You said
"Secondly, Solomon was trying to verify the information brought by the hoopoe. We are all advised to do that per 1736
Thirdly, suspecting someone does not mean they are actually a liar. "Maybe he lied to Solomon before" is an assumption/conjecture on your part which falls under "al-zann". You made an explicit statement in your post that the hoopoe IS a liar without any evidence to back up this accusation/statement."
The difference between "verify" and "suspicion" is as far apart as the two Easts. I will illustrate my view via an example.
When Prophet Muhammad brought us the message we should have verified it against our basic instinct without being suspicious of him. Had he contradicted our basic instinct or if his initial message were proven to be wrong then we would have reason to suspect him with any additional message.
It is not right to be suspicious of someone without a good reason. This would be like false acquisition crime which is forbidden by the Quran and does not sit well with me (basic instinct). Therefore, when Solomon suspected hoopoe's integrity, I took that to be are you lying again.
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Peace guest,
I did not ignored it intentionally. I answered it mentally and forgot to bring it out. I am sorry about that and do thank you for giving me another opportunity to address the issue.
I agree that you cannot assume me of having power of telepathy to know that you mentally answered it. This is actually the answer to your example below as I will illustrate shortly. It applies to your example beautifully.
According to you, sujud during salat is accomplished by saying "we hear and obey". It must be physically said and cannot be done mentally.
That is right. The leader of the group salaat in 4102 does not have the power of telepathy or reading people's minds. The wording is "fa-ithaa sajadoo"/then/so when they have performed sujud. How will the leader know when they have performed sujud? This proves beyond doubt that sujud has to be mental + physical. Therefore if someone cannot perform the physical part then the sujud mentioned in 4102 will not be applicable based on the following signs
991 There is no blame to be placed upon the weak, or the sick, or those who do not find anything to spend on, if they are sincere towards God and His messenger. There is no argument against the good doers; and God is Forgiving, Merciful.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So read what is made easy of the Qur?an. He knows that there will be sick among you,..............
Per 7320 those who are not able to keep up are pardoned. Your example is the kind of exception that falls under the above three signs.
Hence the sujud in group salaat is mental + physical as per 4102
Pre-salat wash In the example cited by me the person in question is washed daily (sponge bath) by nurses to maintain good hygiene. Family member may perform this job as well. Also, rich believing family members can have this service performed as many time as deemed necessary. Why couldn?t the person use this wash to satisfy the pre-salat washing? Remember he is aware of the surrounding; therefore, he may perform salat right after the wash.
56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the bond, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be thankful.
You are twisting the god's words again. Where does it say that someone else can wash you? The language of the sign clearly indicates that the god wants the believer to wash/wipe his/her own body parts. Hence your example does not qualify to perform salat.
Reading the qur'aan in a moderate tone (17110) The person (patient) is doing the recitation from within himself but the sound (voice) is not coming out due to the impact of venom in his body. He knows that his voice is not working because he cannot hear it via his ears. Now, I will change the situation a bit so that he does not have to recite the Quran in a moderate tone i.e. his visitors (relatives) is holding a group salat in his room and the patient is performing salat with them (not leading the salat). Therefore, my question is still valid and here it is again
You are admitting that the sound is not coming out. Therefore again this example does not qualify for salaat because the person performing salaat (individual or group) has to be able to speak in a moderate tone per 17110 during salaat, and therefore has to be able to say "we hear and obey" in a moderate tone as well during group salaat in order to perform sujud.
In addition to that, how will the leader know "fa-ithaa sajadoo"/then/so when they have performed sujud, if the person listening to the recitation of the qur'aan does not physically perform sujud? Remember that the leader cannot read minds.
Your example is an exception that falls under the exceptions given in 991, 4817, and 7320 as explained above, and therefore is irrelevant.
The deaf person example also disproves your sujud theory i.e. he cannot say "we hear and obey" thus nullifying your theory.
Do I need to quote 991, 4871, and 7320 again? I don't think so because I am assuming you are not mentally crippled.
I will give you another example. If you are imprisoned in a sound proof room and someone on the outside recites the qur'aan will you be able to hear it? How can you be expected to sujud when the qur'aan is recited to you in this situation when you can't even hear what is being recited? Being deaf is similar and therefore irrelevant to performing sujud during group salaat.
First - Taking dictionary meaning to define Quran is same as believing in hadith. No difference. Anyone who does this, have surrender their God given basic instinct to a dictionary. How awful. Basic instinct is used to determine right from wrong. Therefore, it must be used very carefully. Going to hell or heaven is dependent on decision made via this basic instinct. Please sink the dictionary you are using in the depth of ocean and forget about it.
Basic instinct cannot be used to twist the god's words. That way everyone can use their own basic instincts even when they are faulty, to give any meaning to any word in the qur'aan and give any sign any meaning they want.
It is a fact that "katheer" does not mean "any" as per the usage of "katheer" in the qur'aan and "baadh" does not mean "even a little of" as per the usage of "baadh" in the qur'aan. You intentionally keep twisting the god's word so all I can say per 2563 and 2855 is peace and stop this discussion.
If you use "much suspicion" then you must define the threshold value that determines how much suspicion is allowed and what is not allowed. This is pure absurdity. This is something satan would advocate to lead us astray.
What I meant by "much suspicion" was not how much suspicion but many suspicions. The words are "katheer min al-zann" and not just "al-zann". It is a fact that the sign does not say "al-zann", which would mean any zann, but says "katheer min al-zann", which would mean many suspicions. Katheer min al-zann is a subset of all zann.
Al-zann (any zann) > katheer min al-zann (many zann)
Katheer min al-zann < al-zann
Katheer min al-zann is not equal to al-zannIt is not right to be suspicious of someone without a good reason. This would be like false acquisition crime which is forbidden by the Quran and does not sit well with me (basic instinct). Therefore, when Solomon suspected hoopoe's integrity, I took that to be are you lying again.
Many people in a murder investigation are suspects even when they have never committed a murder before in their life. Therefore just suspecting someone does not necessarily mean that person has committed that crime before. That is a logical fallacy.
Suspecting someone of telling a lie does not mean they are actually a liar. Calling such a person a liar is an assumption/conjecture which itself falls under "al-zann". You made an explicit statement in your post that the hoopoe IS a liar without any evidence to back up this accusation/statement. Just suspecting alone is not evidence that the person has actually ever committed that crime.
All I can say is "PEACE" now and stop this discussion from my side. The readers can make up their own minds because only the god guides.
PEACE
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Peace truthseeker11,
You say
?The leader of the group salaat in 4102 does not have the power of telepathy or reading people's minds. The wording is "fa-ithaa sajadoo"/then/so when they have performed sujud. How will the leader know when they have performed sujud? This proves beyond doubt that sujud has to be mental + physical.?
First ? The leader does not have to verify who prostrated on not. He completes the salat from start to finish without a break.
Second ? The believer knows what to do from the verse (easy to understand). The first group performs the first sujud with the leader and then leave while the leader is continuing to do the salat, the second group join the salat and finish it with the leader. This is common sense (my dear Watson).
Third ? A wounded or a dying believer who has no ability to move can also perform the salat with the leader or with the first group or the second group.
Then you say
?You are twisting the god's words again. Where does it say that someone else can wash you? The language of the sign clearly indicates that the god wants the believer to wash/wipe his/her own body parts. Hence your example does not qualify to perform salat.?
To continue with the above theme, let say a believer is severely wounded in a battlefield but able to do the wash and then collapse during the salat but still fully conscious. How does he perform the sujud?
Then you say ??..and therefore has to be able to say "we hear and obey" ?.?
No. That is not the definition of sujud during salat. That is your absurd definition of sujud.
?we hear and obey" means we hear the commandments given to us in the Quran and implement them in our daily life so that we can be close to the God in the hereafter. Please don?t reduce us to a parakeet. Just saying is cheap.
Then you say
?Being deaf is similar and therefore irrelevant to performing sujud during group salaat.?
Deaf people can see, read, understand, and perform physical activities. Why would you excuse them from performing salat? And violate Quranic law.
Then you say
?Do I need to quote 991, 4871, and 7320 again??
No. 991 and 4871 has nothing to do with our discussion while 7320 commands us to do this ??..You shall read what you can of it, and observe the contact prayers (Salat), give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and lend GOD a loan of righteousness??
More verses to ponder on
801 - He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
802 - When the blind man came to him.
803 - How do you know? He may purify himself.
804 - Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.Please read and heed.
Then you say
?Basic instinct cannot be used to twist the god's words.?
Twist the God?s word by whose definition? Yours right? You must think you are infallible. Your posts proves otherwise.
Then you say
?That way everyone can use their own basic instincts even when they are faulty, to give any meaning to any word in the qur'aan and give any sign any meaning they want.?
By George, you got it. That is the point I was trying to get through to you. If someone misuses their instinct intentionally they will be held accountable and depending on severity may go to hell. Basic instinct is the mother of all judgment. An example would be you surrendering you instinct to a dictionary where you find any word of your liking. You don?t care if it contradicts the Quran or not.
Then you say
?Many people in a murder investigation are suspects even when they have never committed a murder before in their life. Therefore just suspecting someone does not necessarily mean that person has committed that crime before. That is a logical fallacy.?
This can only happen if we apply your definition to 4912. With my definition an innocent person will not be in such a situation. Your definition is causing such a situation.
Then you say
?Suspecting someone of telling a lie does not mean they are actually a liar.?
Why would you suspect someone of anything without having a solid proof?
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I believe that the movements/physical part of the salat/bond consists of
- standing
- kneeling
- prostating
I believe that 'sujood' is 'making obeisance' and 'rukoo'/rakiaan' is 'humbling oneself'/'humility'.
On the other hand, "kharra sujjadan" means "fall prostate" and "kharra rakiaan" means "fall kneeling".
Note that "kharra rakiaan" has nothing to do with bowing3824 ...David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (kharra rakiaan), and repented.
How can you fall down bowing..?
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the signs of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating (kharroo sujjadan), and in tears.
The above verse shows that we are to prostrate during the salat/bond, since the reading/quran is to be recited during the salat/bond.
Another proof that this is linked to the salat/bond (the verse right after the above one)
1959 Then generations came after them who lost the bond, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.
An example of normal 'sujud' (not prostration)
556 The stars and the trees make obeisance/are submissive/honor (Him) (yasjudani).
I think that standing, kneeling and prostrating are ideal for salat (and reading the quran/reading during it).
First you stand and read the reading/quran and can praise/glorify God.
Then you fall kneeling and you can read more of the Quran.
At the end, once the reading/quran has been read/recited, you fall prostrate.Of course it is not all bodily, but also mental. Falling to the knees symbolizes humblensess/humility (and one should be humble during salat), and prostrating symbolizes full submission/obeidience (and one should be submissive and show obedience to what is being recited).
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Peace Wakas
I forgot to say, if you meant SBH and the timing aspect to it in AQ, e.g. 20130, then some equate it to the regular timed "salat". Of course, this has no evidence from AQ, and actually, AQ refutes it, because the timings contradict each other if an attempt to match them is made. Now, I say they contradict, but more correctly, when I studied it I tried all possible ways I could think of to make them match but failed, and I have never read a post or article that has managed it. Thus, my conclusion is that they are to be taken as idiomatic expressions, meaning all the time. As far as I'm aware, this is commonly stated in dictionaries and even by traditional scholars.
I haven't followed this thread completely, but I would like to comment on the issue of the timing of salat in relation to whta you mention above, particularly the apparent contradiction that seems to exist regarding this issue.
When our study group recently looked at the concept of salat, the issue of timing came up. What I concluded from our discussions & studies was that these apparent contradictions can be resolved when looking at the concept of salat in terms of a gradual progression like many concepts in the quran. I say this because we find that at times salat is mentioned with specific times mentioned & at other times, for example 1778-79 where a very long period of time is covered. This, to me indicates that at the beginning of Muhammad's mission, when people needed to be concerned with finding their livelihood, they were required to commit to the call to salat (however one interprets salat) at certain times. This seems logical to me as the time they could devote to the salat was limited. As time went on & the society created by following what was revealed in the quran took shape, the needs of society were taken care of through the society, & people now were required to answer the call to salat at any time during the day as they no longer have the pressure of looking for their livelihood in the same way they did before.
This is an opinion based on my understanding of various concepts from the quran. I am currently looking into this issue of the timing of salat in more depth, though & would appreciate any thoughts people may have on this opinion. If necessary we could start another thread as I don't want to detract from the current discussion.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
The problems/contradictions only arise from the timings related to the term SBH (if one attempts to equate them with salat), not the timings given for SLW. The interpretation you have for 1778 having a long time period is the weaker of the options, and in my opinion is not even viable according to the Quranic evidence. There have been many threads on the timing issue.
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Peace all,
In my last post I have said that "kharra sujjadan" means "fall prostrate", however, I don't think this is the case.
Please compare the following
(Talking about the righteous)
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall (lam yakhirroo) on them deaf and blind.And
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the signs of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down making obeisance (kharroo sujjadan), and in tears.
What do you think about the following?
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan (yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan).
17108 They say, "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17109 They fall upon their chins crying (yakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona), and it increases them in humility.
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 Say, "Praise is to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." Glorify Him greatly.
Would the fact that "chins" is used indicate that we are to prostrate on the chin during salat?
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
I was reading Mustansir Mir's unique work "Verbal Idioms of The Quran" and in it he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in AQ means to humble oneself before God, and cites a poem by Imru al-Qays* about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin".
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
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I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
Thanks. I guess 'sujud', 'kharra sujud', etc. isn't about prostration after all.
What is your opinion on 'kharra rikiaan" in 3824? Humbleness/metaphorical kneeling?
I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
Good point. Also the sjd in 1761, 3873 and other places where God is described as commanding the universal forces and satan to make sjd to Adam...
3873 The angels made sjd, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the ingrates/rejecters.3875 He said, "O Satan, what prevented you from making sjd to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"
Good contrast between sjd and being arrogant.
Falling sjd is, IMO, total submission and humility/the complete opposite of arrogance.
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan.
17109 They fall to their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
It is also interesting that in 17109 there is no 'sjd' - only falling to the chin is being described.
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Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
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Peace Ahmad
Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
Of course salat is PHYSICAL you stand and PHYSICALLY move your mouth while reciting the quran/recitation, for example; of course the ablution is PHYSICAL as well you PHYSICALLY wash yourself. We are only discussing the meaning of sjd. My current view is that sjd doesnt mean prostration. There is a lot of evidence against the prostration understanding. If you believe otherwise, you are welcome to share your evidence/views.
peace
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3824 can be taken to mean he "fell humbly/inclining and repented", i.e. inclined or became humble to the utmost and repented. This matches the context. I am not sure where "kneeling" comes from but if it is a Classical Arabic meaning then it could mean "fell kneeling".
"khrr" is often used idiomatically to mean "falling absolutely", i.e. doing something to the utmost of it, as exampled in AQ itself, e.g. "fall to the chin", or see 2573 "Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall/khrr on them deaf and blind."
i.e. one should fall upon them hearing and seeing, i.e. give them the utmost attention/thought.
As a side note, there are other Arabic words which can have a meaning of physical prostration, e.g. Kaf-Ba-Ba, Siin-Tay-Ra, Ta-Lam-Lam, Kaf-Ba-Ta.
