"Quran Only" vs "Quran + Worship Practices"
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Peace All
My view is this
- Quran is a book of God. It has passed from generation to generation and finally reached us through "crowd of people".
- The same "crowd of people" have also brought us worship methods like "how to pray, how to perform hajj etc". These worship methods were not detailed in Quran as Quran is the last book of religion, not the first book. Those methods were already prevalent in society at that time. Prophet corrected them where deviations were found.
The above two consists our complete religion.
As far as Hadees(es) are concerned they cannot be used to write Isalmic laws because 1) we dont know the context of the sayings 2) they are based on hearsay. However the Hadees books could be read as a history book (not a religious book) if one is keen to find out what people have said about our prophet and about the issues at the time. These books will give you people's opinion, and there is nothing wrong with reading others views.
Having said that, I have noticed the free-minders (may I used this term) based 100% religion on "Quran".
My question to you is
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Dont you think that Quran is the last book of religion and its purpose was never to teach those practices that were already implemented among followers of that time? For the sake of discussion lets say if God is suppose to send us another prophet today with another book, I would not expect that book to teach us "how to perform salat" as I already know how to. I would expect the new prophet to fix the salat methods if needed. We will then pass on the corrected salat method and the book to the new generation.
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If you think you can only trust Quran and nothing else including worship methods that reached us through "crowd of people" as there could a component of Chinese whisper, then Quran has also reached us through "crowd of people"; How come you are willing to trust Quran and not worshiping methods while both reached us through the same source "crowd of people"?
Any thoughts?
TheSubmitter
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Peace "thesubmitter",
We do not trust the Quran because it came to us through the "crowd of people" who are mostly deviant sunni/shias in our understanding anyways. We trust it because 1) of the archaeloical evidence c14 dating the earliest Quranic manuscript close to 1400 yrs back 2) internal consistency as well as lack of contras with observed scientific phenomena, 3) a numerical structure. "Crowd of people" has nothing to do with it.
As for the practices the Quran as a religious book CONFIRMS all that is passed. BUT it can only confirm what it mentions in it not something which is not mentioned. Otherwise the corrupt story of Abraham physically sacrificing his son by allegedly the command of GOD according to ther OT could also be cosndiered confirmed by the Quran BUT IT AINT. The story of Abraham is there but not tht GOD commanded him to physically sacrifice his son on the altar. Same goes for salat,zakat and everything else. Whatever is mentioned about them is confirmed, anything else is NOT. GOD Bless! -
Peace "thesubmitter",
We do not trust the Quran because it came to us through the "crowd of people" who are mostly deviant sunni/shias in our understanding anyways. We trust it because 1) of the archaeloical evidence c14 dating the earliest Quranic manuscript close to 1400 yrs back 2) internal consistency as well as lack of contras with observed scientific phenomena, 3) a numerical structure. "Crowd of people" has nothing to do with it.
As for the practices the Quran as a religious book CONFIRMS all that is passed. BUT it can only confirm what it mentions in it not something which is not mentioned. Otherwise the corrupt story of Abraham physically sacrificing his son by allegedly the command of GOD according to ther OT could also be cosndiered confirmed by the Quran BUT IT AINT. The story of Abraham is there but not tht GOD commanded him to physically sacrifice his son on the altar. Same goes for salat,zakat and everything else. Whatever is mentioned about them is confirmed, anything else is NOT. GOD Bless!salaam
Dear Jonny k ,would you please comment on this thread ? What was the basis of putting order of revelation on each chapter of the Quran by RK ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598165.0
Thanks -
Peace "thesubmitter",
We do not trust the Quran because it came to us through the "crowd of people" who are mostly deviant sunni/shias in our understanding anyways. We trust it because 1) of the archaeloical evidence c14 dating the earliest Quranic manuscript close to 1400 yrs back 2) internal consistency as well as lack of contras with observed scientific phenomena, 3) a numerical structure. "Crowd of people" has nothing to do with it.
As for the practices the Quran as a religious book CONFIRMS all that is passed. BUT it can only confirm what it mentions in it not something which is not mentioned. Otherwise the corrupt story of Abraham physically sacrificing his son by allegedly the command of GOD according to ther OT could also be cosndiered confirmed by the Quran BUT IT AINT. The story of Abraham is there but not tht GOD commanded him to physically sacrifice his son on the altar. Same goes for salat,zakat and everything else. Whatever is mentioned about them is confirmed, anything else is NOT. GOD Bless!Peace jonny_k
I see where you are coming from. You dont trust anything passed to you from past generations. You only trust Quran because of its miracle as you see them now. Fair enough.
Dont you find Quran confirming some practices without itself mentioning how to perform them? As if Quran is expecting that you already know how to perform them without detailing the steps itself.
I am sure tons of threads must have been created in the past on this subject. A brief answer would be fine. I want to have a logical understanding of free-minders position.
Thanks
TheSubmitter
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Peace "thesubmitter",
Peace jonny_k
I see where you are coming from. You dont trust anything passed to you from past generations. You only trust Quran because of its miracle as you see them now. Fair enough.
Dont you find Quran confirming some practices without itself mentioning how to perform them? As if Quran is expecting that you already know how to perform them without detailing the steps itself.
JK- No i find that these terms have been misinterpreted and mistranslated to suit sunni/shia dogma. Infact im beginning to see more and more evidence from the Quran that salat doesnt mean ritual prayer at all see 95 for example. Shld we only let them go if the PRAY RITUALLY(quran says elsewhere theres no compulsion in religion) or if they uphold their comitment?
I am sure tons of threads must have been created in the past on this subject. A brief answer would be fine. I want to have a logical understanding of free-minders position.
Thanks
TheSubmitter
JK- I hope i explained it well in the few words i used. GOD Bless!
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Peace "q-student"
salaam
Dear Jonny k ,would you please comment on this thread ? What was the basis of putting order of revelation on each chapter of the Quran by RK ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598165.0
ThanksJK- I think he derived that from hadith. It seems at least in part justified by a numerical structure as far as ive seen just like the date of Hijra and the no of yrs the Quran was rev BH. Thats why i said that some hadith maybe used for historical references and in that they MAYbe accurate BUT ONLY if justified by further evidence in this case numerical IMU. GOD Bless!
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Peace "thesubmitter",
JK- No i find that these terms have been misinterpreted and mistranslated to suit sunni/shia dogma. Infact im beginning to see more and more evidence from the Quran that salat doesnt mean ritual prayer at all see 95 for example. Shld we only let them go if the PRAY RITUALLY(quran says elsewhere theres no compulsion in religion) or if they uphold their comitment?
JK- I hope i explained it well in the few words i used. GOD Bless!
Peace jonny_k
Thanks for the replies.
Can you refer me to a thread or article where I can see Quran-only understanding on "how to perform Salat".
Thanks
TheSubmitter
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Peace "q-student"
JK- I think he derived that from hadith. It seems at least in part justified by a numerical structure as far as ive seen just like the date of Hijra and the no of yrs the Quran was rev BH. Thats why i said that some hadith maybe used for historical references and in that they MAYbe accurate BUT ONLY if justified by further evidence in this case numerical IMU. GOD Bless!
Salaam JOnny
Why to use wrong hadith for historical reference ? I cannot understand.What is the proof these hadiths are correct ?
Second question comes then how present order of chapters were made i.e
First Al Faatiha
Second Al -Baqara ----Last Al naas ?
who made these against Divine order ? -
Peace "Q_student",
Salaam JOnny
Why to use wrong hadith for historical reference ? I cannot understand.What is the proof these hadiths are correct ?JK- The evidence is 1) lack of bias in matters of revelation order and date of rev 2) numerical strcuture like the Quran's age in 1974 was exactly 1406 lunar years and 19x74 coicidentally equals 1406 and that was also the year RK discovered code-19 and the no 19 is only mentioned once in the Quran IN SURA 74. This is too much to be just coicnidence. The dates were derived from hadith and supported by this relation.
Second question comes then how present order of chapters were made i.e
First Al Faatiha
Second Al -Baqara ----Last Al naas ?
who made these against Divine order ?JK- Here i have to be honest and say the magic words "I DONT KNOW". We'll have to wait and see but we know with high probability based also on a numerical structuzre that this order is Divine and has been in existenc for more than 1000 yrs based on the ealriest manuscripts and c14 dating. GOD Bless!
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Salaam Jonny
I feel your statements are undefined and ambigous.JK- The evidence is 1) lack of bias in matters of revelation order and date of rev 2) numerical strcuture like the Quran's age in 1974 was exactly 1406 lunar years and 19x74 coicidentally equals 1406 and that was also the year RK discovered code-19 and the no 19 is only mentioned once in the Quran IN SURA 74. This is too much to be just coicnidence. The dates were derived from hadith and supported by this relation.
According to you first reason is
LACK OF BIAS IN MATTER OF REVELATION ORDERHow can you say this ?
A narrator who is telling lies in matter number 1,2,3,4....... How can you trust him that is not lying in matter number 100? Prove that these hadiths were unbiased.
NUMERICAL STRUCTURE OF THE QURAN
Would you please elaborate how numerical structure of the Quran prove that order of revelation of Al-Faatiha is 5 and that of Albaqara 87 ?JK- Here i have to be honest and say the magic words "I DONT KNOW". We'll have to wait and see but we know with high probability based also on a numerical structuzre that this order is Divine and has been in existenc for more than 1000 yrs based on the ealriest manuscripts and c14 dating. GOD Bless!
This order is divine?. Any Proof ? Did Allah reveal this order ? Where is that revelation ?
thanks
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Peace "q_student",
Salaam Jonny
I feel your statements are undefined and ambigous.JK- Well ill try to clarify further.
According to you first reason is
LACK OF BIAS IN MATTER OF REVELATION ORDERHow can you say this ?
A narrator who is telling lies in matter number 1,2,3,4....... How can you trust him that is not lying in matter number 100? Prove that these hadiths were unbiased.JK- Coz what could be the reason one would wanna make up order of revelation nos? What would this particular rev order as is in circulation today have given the elite at that time? I dont see anything.
NUMERICAL STRUCTURE OF THE QURAN
Would you please elaborate how numerical structure of the Quran prove that order of revelation of Al-Faatiha is 5 and that of Albaqara 87 ?JK- Well take a look at http//www.submission.org/miracle/order.html IN ASSOCIATION with the fact that sura 96 is atop the first 19 suras and has 19 verses and the famous first rev cosnsists of 19 words. All this shows that the rev order is significant whether derived from hadith or elsewhere.
This order is divine?. Any Proof ? Did Allah reveal this order ? Where is that revelation ?
thanks
JK- I agree the complete order is not verified yet but the fact that there are 114 suras is solid in that despite their being only 113 Bismillahs ontop of suras there is ONE EXTRA in 2730 making them 114 again which is 19x6. Some facts to consider. From sura 9 of the missing bismillah to the sura 27 which contains the extra BISMILLAH in the middle there are 19 suras. Now take a look at
http//submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.html
GOD Bless! -
Salaam Jonny
Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately ,you are placing your concepts of reliability on assumption whether someone gains something or not out of this lie. Habitual liars do not have to gain something to tell a lie.This standard is only highly righteous and pious persons not for habitual liars.That is why Quran gives us the criteria for reliability049.006
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! If an evil-liver bring you tidings, verify it, lest ye smite some folk in ignorance and afterward repent of what ye did.
SHAKIR O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done.so much so even such liars are speaking the "truth" even then their statement is not acceptable and those are called "Liars".
063.001
YUSUFALI When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.
PICKTHAL When the hypocrites come unto thee (O Muhammad), they say We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.
SHAKIR When the hypocrites come to you, they say We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.Using this Quranic Criteria now prove that those Hadiths containing Order of revelation are correct. Scondly would you please post those Hadiths which show this order of revelation ?
The nurmerical structure cannot tell that order of revelation of Al -Faatiha is 5 and that of Al Baqarah 87. Please prove it here in simple comprehensible manner. I am anxious to know.
Thanks
Thanks -
Peace,
JK- The evidence is 1) lack of bias in matters of revelation order and date of rev 2) numerical strcuture like the Quran's age in 1974 was exactly 1406 lunar years and 19x74 coicidentally equals 1406 and that was also the year RK discovered code-19 and the no 19 is only mentioned once in the Quran IN SURA 74. This is too much to be just coicnidence. The dates were derived from hadith and supported by this relation.
http//bruceadumas.com/db2/00111/bruceadumas.com/_uimages/Curious-Cows-13-x-19.jpg
Using this Quranic Criteria now prove that those Hadiths containing Order of revelation are correct. Scondly would you please post those Hadiths which show this order of revelation ?
The nurmerical structure cannot tell that order of revelation of Al -Faatiha is 5 and that of Al Baqarah 87. Please prove it here in simple comprehensible manner. I am anxious to know.
ThanksPeace Q_student,
Excellent questions, and that astounding info from the clueless is not even found in hadith.
None knows exactly when certain chapters were revealed including ch 1, which parts of ch 9 came first or 2nd part of ch 96, etc. nothing but random shuffling until they get a nineteen multiple which they are obbessed with.
Any thoughts?
Peace TheSubmitter,
The HOW is not important -- The WHY is what matters.
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Peace "Q_student",
Salaam Jonny
Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately ,you are placing your concepts of reliability on assumption whether someone gains something or not out of this lie. Habitual liars do not have to gain something to tell a lie.This standard is only highly righteous and pious persons not for habitual liars.That is why Quran gives us the criteria for reliabilityJK- But how can you say that all reporters in hadith were liars To some extent hadith reports are accepted as history even by western sholars. There has to be some hisorical validity from every document around and this i say is one of them. Llying in regards to rev order and dates due to habbit makes no sense to me.
so much so even such liars are speaking the "truth" even then their statement is not acceptable and those are called "Liars".
JK- The hadith is a mixture of lies and truths. It cant be all lies. That would be too much of a conspiracy.
Using this Quranic Criteria now prove that those Hadiths containing Order of revelation are correct. Scondly would you please post those Hadiths which show this order of revelation ?
The nurmerical structure cannot tell that order of revelation of Al -Faatiha is 5 and that of Al Baqarah 87. Please prove it here in simple comprehensible manner. I am anxious to know.
Thanks
ThanksJK- You have a point here. Thats why bro Bahman was amazed when RK published his table 23 leavng it without comment. Then suddenly when the large no was divided was a xple of 19. That alone ofcourse isnt amazing but looking at it in relation with the other finding still makes it so. However the first revelation and last one are famous and the code seems to support them. GOD Bless!
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Peace jonny,
JK- You have a point here. Thats why bro Bahman was amazed when RK published his table 23 leavng it without comment. Then suddenly when the large no was divided was a xple of 19. That alone ofcourse isnt amazing but looking at it in relation with the other finding still makes it so. However the first revelation and last one are famous and the code seems to support them. GOD Bless!
The ignorance is beyond belief!
None knows the ORDER OF REVELATION!
What Bahman did was shift columns around until he found a multiple...
#of verses | total vn | order of revelation | chapter#
4 columns of numbers is 4 factorial = 24 possible combinations.
Shifting columns of numbers ABCD, ABDC, etc., about every 1/19 = 0.0526315789 you get a hit.
This is simple probability regardless if few digits or thousands, NOT amazing magic!
1 2 3 4
1 2 4 3
1 3 2 4
1 3 4 2
1 4 2 3
1 4 3 22 1 3 4
2 1 4 3
2 3 1 4
2 3 4 1
2 4 1 3 = 19 x 127
2 4 3 13 1 2 4
3 1 4 2
3 2 1 4
3 2 4 1
3 4 1 2
3 4 2 1 -
Peace "Eid",
I agree with you that the we cant trust the order of rev in it's entirety as of now. However there are parts like the first rev 961-5 and the last rev 1101-3 which we can trust coz each consists of 19 words and also the sura 96 containing the first rev is "coincidentally" the 19th sura from the end of the Quran. GOD Bless! -
My view is this
- Quran is a book of God. It has passed from generation to generation and finally reached us through "crowd of people".
Quran from the crowd of the noisy nosey?
Submitter,
What Allah wants us to view in Quran is
68 52
69 43
Quran is the Guide and Grace for the people of all worlds including the heavens, the earth, jinns, malayikas, every creation that we know and that we know not. Every single creation, a bee for instance, including man and jinn receive the wahy from Allah. Every thing except men and jinn submits itself totally to Him. And so they are guided. If man also submits totally surrendering his will to Allah, they are the people Guided too!45 22
Allah created the heavens and the earth for just ends, and in order that each soul may find the recompense of what it has earned, and none of them be wronged. If there is a tsunami or an earthquake or floods or any other natural fury against man is because of their submission to Allah's command. Allah has given the command to every one of His creation, as to how to react against those who reject and rebel. There may be tens of thousands dead due to earthquake, but there are people alive and come out of the rubbles; the cement and concrete cannot crush them for they obey Allah and for just reason they are saved and given a lease of life so that they guard and ward off the evil for the rest of their lives. Even a mosquito bites only by His command. No evil touches us except by His leave. He has not wronged us in the least, rather we wronged ourselves!55 1-2
Ar Rahman, the Bountiful taught every one of the Bounties He has created for man, its Guidance from the entire Quran so that either they shall obey and be subservient to man rewarding him by His command; or disobey and over power him putting him to misery by His command.55 3-4
Then the Bountiful created man and admonishes him with His glad tidings and warnings in clear terms explaining the Quran, by His Wahy, through His Ruh!.
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Peace jonny,
I agree with you that the we cant trust the order of rev in it's entirety as of now. However there are parts like the first rev 961-5 and the last rev 1101-3 which we can trust coz each consists of 19 words and also the sura 96 containing the first rev is "coincidentally" the 19th sura from the end of the Quran. GOD Bless!
Who says ?part? of 96 is the first revelation?
Then you believe other nonsense associated with those stories too embarrassing to repeat. Of course they count from the end because from beginning 96 / 19 = 5.05263158 not multiple. Perhaps it starts ?By God's Name? same as in prior book (to people of the book)?
2729
2730How do you know chapter 110 was the last and not this part of chapter five?
53?today I completed for you your religion?
Perhaps 4176 on inheritance of kalala which they are clueless as to the meaning as some have reported...
http//www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=11&translator=2&start=10&number=3937
Al-Bara' (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the last verse revealed in the Holy Qur'an is" They ask thee for a religious verdict; say Allah gives you a religious verdict about Kalala
As you can see the traditions are all over the place and does order of revelation really matter?
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Peace "Eid",
Peace jonny,
Who says ?part? of 96 is the first revelation?
JK- I believe it is mentioned in hadith and also it is been undisputed in ciculation all over people who claim to know about it. As i said hadith maybe used for history in CERTAIN areas where theres no apparent bias like birth dates or rev order.
Then you believe other nonsense associated with those stories too embarrassing to repeat. Of course they count from the end because from beginning 96 / 19 = 5.05263158 not multiple. Perhaps it starts ?By God's Name? same as in prior book (to people of the book)?
2729
2730How do you know chapter 110 was the last and not this part of chapter five?
53?today I completed for you your religion?
JK- Again because nobody has ever claimed it to be so and more importantly there is no reason to lie or fabricate such. It has never been disputed by both those who claimed to uphold Quran Alone and sectarians until the discovery of code-19 in 1974. Now ofcourse people who have a grudge against the code could become potential disputers.
Perhaps 4176 on inheritance of kalala which they are clueless as to the meaning as some have reported...
http//www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=11&translator=2&start=10&number=3937
As you can see the traditions are all over the place and does order of revelation really matter?JK- Lemme ask you if you do not accept hadith for any Divine injunctions then how doyou trust the same people comitting the Quran into memory? Does that make sense? GOD Bless!