"Quran Only" vs "Quran + Worship Practices"
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Peace jonny,
JK- I believe it is mentioned in hadith and also it is been undisputed in ciculation all over people who claim to know about it. As i said hadith maybe used for history in CERTAIN areas where theres no apparent bias like birth dates or rev order.
JK- Again because nobody has ever claimed it to be so and more importantly there is no reason to lie or fabricate such. It has never been disputed by both those who claimed to uphold Quran Alone and sectarians until the discovery of code-19 in 1974. Now ofcourse people who have a grudge against the code could become potential disputers.
Don?t mention 1974, that is one of the most ridiculous things on the net.
Alright, one last time ? the hadith are all over the place, parts of chapters/verses, numerous chapters nobody knows their order of revelation (not even in hadith) only the nineteen obsessed (illa fitna) who made it all up along with other absurdities to convince himself and his na?ve followers.
JK- Lemme ask you if you do not accept hadith for any Divine injunctions then how doyou trust the same people comitting the Quran into memory? Does that make sense? GOD Bless!
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Peace "Eid",
Peace jonny,
Don?t mention 1974, that is one of the most ridiculous things on the net.
JK- Why is that? Look at all the relationswhich are the following. The no.19 is only mentioned once in the Quran in sura no. 74. Then 19x74=1406 and that is exactly the no of lunar yrs from the first revelation of the Quran, as accepted generally before the dicovery of code-19, till 1974. BUT there is something else. The GV of the first two verses of sura 74 ALSO equals 1974
741 O you hidden/covered/secret(code-19).
742 Come out and warn.
NOW if you can take "dahaaha" as allegorical then these verses and infact the whole sura 74 can also allegorically refer to code-19 and it makes perfect sense. Now take the total of the GV of the above two verses.
741 ya alif alif ya ha alif alif laam meem daal tha ra
10+1+1+10+5+1+1+30+40+4+500+200 = 803742 qaf meem fa alif noon zaal ra
100+40+80+1+50+700+200 = 1171Now 803+1171 equals 1974.
Alright, one last time ? the hadith are all over the place, parts of chapters/verses, numerous chapters nobody knows their order of revelation (not even in hadith) only the nineteen obsessed (illa fitna) who made it all up along with other absurdities to convince himself and his na?ve followers.
JK- Even before the discovery of code-19 people knew well that 961-5 was the first revelation given to Muhammad and 1101-3 was the last. That is clear. The rest can be disputed as i said earlier.
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JK- "We made the Quran easy to remember" 1) does not mean that the sunnis/shia have memorized the real Quran 2) does not necessarily imply the recital of the Quran but remebering the themes as to what they are and when and where they are discussed in the Quran. As for the last phrase it says "Fi KITAABIM maknoon" NOT "fi QIRAATIM maknoon" i.e. in a well guarded BOOK/SCRIPTURE/WRITING NOT RECITAL. Hence we consider 1) the oldest available manuscript via archaelogical findings and 2) the numerical structure since GOD also gives example that His books are numbered or numerically structured
8319 Do you know what `Elleyyeen is?
83 20 kitaabun marqoom i.e. A book/writing numbered.
GOD Bless! -
Don?t mention 1974, that is one of the most ridiculous things on the net.
I agree, to link 1974 with rashad is ridiculous
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0
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Peace "David_K",
So are you saying that it is pure coincidence that 1974 happens to be 1406 lunar years from th rev of the Quran as accepted without dispute that the Quran was revealed 13 years before hijrah and the hijri lunar date at 1974 is 1393 AH? ALSO do you say it is pure coincidence that the no.19 is only mentioned once in sura SEVENTYFOUR(74)??? GOD Bless! -
Peace "thesubmitter",
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597936.0
GOD Bless!Peace
Thanks jonny_k for the link. I will go through this and if I have any questions I will start another thread. You and student_q have hijacked my thread for you own discussions
But right now this is what I think about Salat
- When Quran used the word Salat, the Salat were already being practiced.
- The audience knew what Quran is talking about since they could relate to the word. That is why they did not question what Salat is and that is why Quran never explain in detail how to perform Salat.
- The method of Salat has reached us through the same crowd that has transmitted Quran to us (nothing to do with Hadees)
- Finding the method of Salat in Quran and finding meaning of Salat in Quran is not a way to go (in my opinion).
With this background I will read your link and hopefully will find some useful insight.
Thank you and best regards
TheSubmitter -
Peace thesubmitter,
Welcome to the forum.
We are not "free-minders" and I take great offense to you classifying me using that term. There is a diverse group of people who visit this forum and exchange views and understandings in a quest to find the truth and improve their understandings of the great reading by mutual discussion
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
I classify myself as a peacemaker/muslim (with a small m) and would appreciate you addressing me as that instead of "free-minder".
There is no such thing as "free-minders position". Everyone has their own understanding based on many different factors and hopefully one day all our understandings will converge and be uniform if we persist in sincerely seeking the truth and not let our egos hinder us in that path
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
There have been many discussions on "salaat" in this forum and you can use the search feature to go through those discussions. You will find myriads of different understandings and you will have to come to your own understanding after verifying all the information for yourself. In the end, ONLY THE GOD GUIDES, provided we choose to be guided, and think/ponder/meditate on the signs from The God and use our God given faculties sincerely. Everyone will be accountable and responsible for their own deeds.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
I would urge you to arrive at your own understanding based on the great reading by burning the midnight oil -) We are commanded to establish the salaat for that very purpose. It is a tool to help us arrive at the correct understanding of the great reading by reading/reciting the great reading regularly and making our best effort to understand it, so we can implement it in our lives.
My understanding of "salaat" is "connection". Depending on the context, it could mean connection from people/creation to The God, or from people to people, or from The God or controllers/malaika to people. We have been commanded to establish a regular connection with The God using the method outlined in the great reading. It has both physical components (such as reading/reciting the great reading at certain times preceded by a physical washing, glorifying and praising The God, a physical sujud) and mental components (such as having a clear mind, reading the great reading with understanding, humility/ruku, obedience/sujud) but the mental components are far more important. ALL THE NECESSARY INGREDIENTS OF A SALAAT ARE CLEARLY OUTLINED IN THE GREAT READING, which are necessary to achieve the purpose of the salaat. The completely detailed salaat as given in the great reading however will NEVER be enough for those who do not have faith in the great reading and have their own pre-conceived notions based on unverifiable hearsay and conjecture.
Peace
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salaam JK
You statedJK- But how can you say that all reporters in hadith were liars To some extent hadith reports are accepted as history even by western sholars. There has to be some hisorical validity from every document around and this i say is one of them. Llying in regards to rev order and dates due to habbit makes no sense to me.
Ok if all Hadith Reporters are not liars then
1Give those Hadiths which tell us the order of revelation
2Prove that Hadiths are correct and the reporters are NOT LIARSWestern scholars may be criteria for you but not for me.
Waiting for those Hadiths and Reporter authenticity.
Thanks -
Peace everyone,
For those who believe that the signs/ayaat of The God are in the great reading only, should ponder on the following sign from the great reading itself that says otherwise
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
To arrive at the truth, one can ponder on any of the signs of The God, whether they are in the great reading or outside it in the horizons and within ourselves and are thereby "extra-quranic".
There is no such thing as "quran only" according to the qur'aan itself. The message of the great reading is GOD ONLY and not quran only as per 4153, 9129, 3936, 770, 3945, 4012, 4084, 1746.
Peace
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There is no such thing as "quran only" according to the qur'aan itself. The message of the great reading is GOD ONLY and not quran only as per 4153, 9129, 3936, 770, 3945, 4012, 4084, 1746.
Peace
Peace.
I agree. The label Quran only-muslim, Koranist, and other labels like these are created by people that don't get it. I guess it is in our human nature to want to label something without having verified our labels to see if they match with the facts. For example the word koranist that some people here use, does not even exist in the Quran = Invention. They have invented these labels = Man-made. Some people like to create labels because they want security. They want to have a different set of rules and rituals that they can follow every day. Instead of focusing on doing good deeds = External. They focus on themselves = Internal. And when people focus too much on themselves = Narcissism. You know, i think the reason why man-made religions and cults are so attractive to the masses is because the cults and the religions have lots of rituals and practices that can give their members a sense of control and security. They will be given rituals and practices that allow them to do the practices and rituals on autopilot = Not think. When people don't need to think, they can live their life in a fantasy island were everything is beautiful and romantic and they are pleasing and changing the world. But by doing lots of man-made and fake rituals and practices, they neither will change the world nor change themselves. The fact is that there is no magic pills or rituals that can lead people to the truth. There is no fantasy neither. I hate to say it, but reality is ugly and this life is only an illusion.
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Peace everyone,
For those who believe that the signs/ayaat of The God are in the great reading only, should ponder on the following sign from the great reading itself that says otherwise
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
To arrive at the truth, one can ponder on any of the signs of The God, whether they are in the great reading or outside it in the horizons and within ourselves and are thereby "extra-quranic".
There is no such thing as "quran only" according to the qur'aan itself. The message of the great reading is GOD ONLY and not quran only as per 4153, 9129, 3936, 770, 3945, 4012, 4084, 1746.
Peace
Salaam Brother
Do not talk in undefined and non specified manner. Our topic over here is Hadiths on which RK relied to tell the Order of Revelation
1Bring up those Hadiths which show the order of Revelation
2rove the reliability of the Reporters.To David K ;
Instead of giving unspecified and amgious speeches ,be practical and answer my two questions above. Actions speak louder than words.
Come on brother.
Thanks -
Peace,
My comments were meant for thesubmitter and readers in general and are pertinent to the topic of this thread. Thesubmitter started this thread and others are trying to hijack it. They can start a different thread for their discussion instead of hijacking this thread. Moderators please note.
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Salaam Brother
Do not talk in undefined and non specified manner. Our topic over here is Hadiths on which RK relied to tell the Order of Revelation
1Bring up those Hadiths which show the order of Revelation
2rove the reliability of the Reporters.To David K ;
Instead of giving unspecified and amgious speeches ,be practical and answer my two questions above. Actions speak louder than words.
Come on brother.
ThanksPeace Q-student.
My post was not an unspecified and ambigious speech. My post was answearing to the topic in this thread.
Off course i can answer your questions (if i want), but not in this thread. Because your questions are off-topic. The topic of this thread is Quran only vs Quran + worship practices. No offense man, but you are neither moderator nor threadstarter, nor representant of this forum or thread. So in my opinion you don't have the right to give anyone any orders. -
Peace "Q_student",
salaam JK
You stated
Ok if all Hadith Reporters are not liars then
1Give those Hadiths which tell us the order of revelation
2Prove that Hadiths are correct and the reporters are NOT LIARSWestern scholars may be criteria for you but not for me.
Waiting for those Hadiths and Reporter authenticity.
ThanksJK- I agree that the whole rev order may not be correct as presented but as for 961-5 being the first and 1101-3 the last that was never disputed and i see no reason why it should be wrong. On the contrary significant numerical structured pts show the likelihood of that being correct. GOD Bless!
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Peace "David_K",
So are you saying that it is pure coincidence that 1974 happens to be 1406 lunar years from th rev of the Quran as accepted without dispute that the Quran was revealed 13 years before hijrah and the hijri lunar date at 1974 is 1393 AH? ALSO do you say it is pure coincidence that the no.19 is only mentioned once in sura SEVENTYFOUR(74)??? GOD Bless!It don't matter if the number 19 is mentioned in the sura 74. If you use reason you will see that 19 + 74 = 93. So according to mathmatics the year he should have found was 1993. And even that year is fake, because its the year of the christians, not the year when the quran was revealed.
And the claim that rashad khalifa found the number 19 in 1974 could have been a fabrication to make his so called miracle bigger. By linking natural causes to events and certain dates human beings always tried throughout history to claim that natural things were miracles.
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Peace,
My comments were meant for thesubmitter and readers in general and are pertinent to the topic of this thread. Thesubmitter started this thread and others are trying to hijack it. They can start a different thread for their discussion instead of hijacking this thread. Moderators please note.
Salaam Brother
This is not hijacking.The thread is about Quran + worshiping practices.
Worshiping practices come from "crowd" or reporters as per thread starter.Then it was the natural outcome.RK produced WRONG and UNAUTHENTICATED information.
Quran is Mufassal and detailed. -
Salaam Brother
This is not hijacking.The thread is about Quran + worshiping practices.
Worshiping practices come from "crowd" or reporters as per thread starter.Then it was the natural outcome.RK produced WRONG and UNAUTHENTICATED information.
Quran is Mufassal and detailed.Peace Q_student
It was a misunderstanding then. I thought your questions were off-topic. So actually neither me, nor you were off-topic in our posts.
By the way, i agree that RK produced wrong and UNAUTHENTICARED information. And i agree that quran is detailedHave a nice day brother
David_K
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We are not "free-minders" and I take great offense to you classifying me using that term. There is a diverse group of people who visit this forum and exchange views and understandings in a quest to find the truth and improve their understandings of the great reading by mutual discussion
Peace truthseeker11
My sincere apologies. I never meant to put down any one.
And thanks for the detailed reply. That helps me understand your position.
TheSubmitter
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Peace all, Salam,
I am not sure to well understand your discussion but
I mean the order is up to God because He is the one responsible for protecting it and collecting it as per 7517Also regarding the order see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597492.0
basically a brother (Muslimtruthrevealed) underlined this
Assalaam Alaikum
This is the Order of Revelation....
And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to Our servant, then come with a Surah/Chapter like it; and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
Wa in kuntum fee raybin mimma nazzalna AAala AAabdina fatoo bisooratin min mithlihi waodAAoo shuhadaakum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
Only ONE chapter has been revealed PRIOR to Al-Baqarah which is Al-Fatihah The Opening
Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "BRING YOU THEN TEN SURAS forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever you can, other than Allah!- If you speak the truth!
The ayah is challenging and defining the order of revelation 'bring ten sura's', Al-Hud is the 11th sura, proceeded by 10 other suras
Thats the order of revelation, clearly defined by Allah,swt
Best regards
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Peace all, Salam,
I am not sure to well understand your discussion but
I mean the order is up to God because He is the one responsible for protecting it and collecting it as per 7517Also regarding the order see http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597492.0
basically a brother (Muslimtruthrevealed) underlined this
Assalaam Alaikum
This is the Order of Revelation....
And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to Our servant, then come with a Surah/Chapter like it; and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
Wa in kuntum fee raybin mimma nazzalna AAala AAabdina fatoo bisooratin min mithlihi waodAAoo shuhadaakum min dooni Allahi in kuntum sadiqeena
Only ONE chapter has been revealed PRIOR to Al-Baqarah which is Al-Fatihah The Opening
Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "BRING YOU THEN TEN SURAS forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever you can, other than Allah!- If you speak the truth!
The ayah is challenging and defining the order of revelation 'bring ten sura's', Al-Hud is the 11th sura, proceeded by 10 other suras
Thats the order of revelation, clearly defined by Allah,swt
Best regards
Salaam Herbman
Thanks for this information. You want to say that the order which is present in the Quran right now is divine. If so then how will you explain 53 where Deen is completed. What is validity of all verses after it till end of the Quran. Are they not the part of the "Deen" or Islam ? -
Peace "David_K",
It don't matter if the number 19 is mentioned in the sura 74. If you use reason you will see that 19 + 74 = 93. So according to mathmatics the year he should have found was 1993. And even that year is fake, because its the year of the christians, not the year when the quran was revealed.
JK- NO, that would be inconsistent with the method. Remember it is ALL ABOUT XPLES OF 19 ELSEWHERE i.e. 19 should be the COEFFICIENT NOT A TERM ADDED OR SUBTRACTED. So this is very significant. IF just the sum of 19+74 even were xple of 19 i would not have seen any significance neither would their sum bein xple 19 have added any signficance to me.
And the claim that rashad khalifa found the number 19 in 1974 could have been a fabrication to make his so called miracle bigger. By linking natural causes to events and certain dates human beings always tried throughout history to claim that natural things were miracles.
JK- Bro Edip is still alive and HE CAN ATTEST TO THAT FACT. 2ndly the miracles aare in nature. There are NO supernatural events. For example i beleive GOD showed me that theory of evolution is true at a time i was in a crisis by allowing a girl who was very skinny and her body stcruture was such that it reminded me of an apelike creature. THEN on her bag i saw the word "LUCY" written in the lowest line whilst the other two words were coincidentally??? covered by the bags strap. Later i checked and guess what? The fossil LUCY was also discovered in 1974. ALL OF THIS TOGETHER is too much to be coincidence and it would be foolish of me to ignore these signs. GOD Bless!