Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.
In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.
There are two kinds of mohsanaat
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.
According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.
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Peace Nyma,
You are YET AGAIN not reading 2282 properly brickwall brickwall brickwall
I think this is because you cannot read Arabic.
Can please explaing how ajr is linked to the root Ba-Ya-Ayn
IT IS NOT LINKED TO BA-YA-AYN. READ MY POST ABOVE AGAIN WITH GLASSES PLEASE. WHERE DID I SAY THAT? I clearly said that NIKAH/MARRIAGE is linked to "BA-YA-AYN". When you cannot even understand what I am saying then how can you understand what The God is saying. giveup
AJR is linked to "TADAAYANTUM" root "DYN", and to "TIJAARAT" root "TJR". The commandments about written contract are for "tijaarat" from TJR and "tadaayantum" from DYN.
You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".
I am sorry but giveup
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.
In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.
There are two kinds of mohsanaat
-
Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
-
Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.
According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.
Dear Truth Seeker
You saidSo you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married.
Would you please explain this "Oath of Marriage' before marriage ?
Is marriage by itself not a Cotract (Oath) ? What is the reason of double oath ? Who are these ladies ?
Regards -
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Peace Nyma,
Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?
According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.
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Peace student,
Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.
I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.
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According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.
The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.
I disagree with ajr relating to finance as no solid verse links ajr to financial transactions. Where does the Quran say that ajr is finance related or where does it say or imply that it is a FINANCIAL debt. In light of this i have come to think and change my mind that ajr is not just a present or gift but it is something else as it would not make sense for Ajr to be just what we understand as gift (flowers, rings....)
Hence where does the Quran require a written dowry or ajr (have i skimmed?)
Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.
Via this i accepted the need for witnesses.
Question remains
Written Ajr??
peace peace
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Peace N,
Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.
Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.
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Now i get you
You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".
Can you tell me why you link ajr to finance??
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According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.
But if ajr is not financial, why are we linking it to 2282/// ??? ??? ???
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Peace Nyma,
Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?
Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.
Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial or nonfinancial trade/transaction. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.
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Peace student,
Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?
Ma malakat aymanukum is "what possessed by your oath". What kind of oath is determined by the context. In the context of marriage, it can only be an oath to get married.
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Peace Nyma,
Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?
Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.
Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial trade or nonfinancial trade. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.
Thank you for making it clearer for me.
Am i write in guessing that Ajr has to be physical hence the verse 2237?
Are there any verses that say it has to be something of intrinsic value? In other words something of the attributes which can relate to 2282?To this point i sincerely appreciate your patience. I feel that we are possibly coming to a mutual understanding hence i ask of you to be patient for A LITTLE longer.
Thanks,
peace -
Peace Nyma,
We are asked to GIVE THEM THEIR UJOOR wherever it is mentioned in the context of marriage. So it has to be something physical. The only way you can give her HALF as per 2237 also proves it has to be something physical and also something which can be divided in half. How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?
2282 talks about anything that can be borrowed/lent/owed. When you don't give the ajr to the wife on the spot at the time of nikah, you owe it to her and hence comes under "tadaayantum".
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Peace Truthseeker
How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?
The current point i'm trying to make is that
If you offer or want an ajr that HAS intrinsic/financial value then as reason would also agree it is better to write it down so it is protected by law (government) this is typical in all things that have great intrinsic and financial value.
But there are 2 issues to this
- what someone interprets as great enough intrinsic or financial value to write down to protect legally
2)wether they even want something like that
It might well be that a couple agree on two branches of rose.
Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr to protect themselves. Hence to protect the ajr, it was essential for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???
peace peace
- what someone interprets as great enough intrinsic or financial value to write down to protect legally
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Peace N,
Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.
Peace
Thanks for your explanation.
Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"
Why 2 women instead of 1? Because women are forgetful? Aren't men forgetful too?
If there are any gender differences at all, women are supposed to have better long-term memory than men. -
Peace Nyma,
Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr hence to protect it, it was better for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???
We have to go by what word has been used. The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer. P
Therefore, ajr in the context of marriage has to be something valuable.
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peace Truthseeker
The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer.
;D
With regards to
SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDEDCan we link a God given Ajr to a human given ajr? What i mean is that in many verses of the Quran, the God given ajr is described (so we know it to be valuable) the human given ajr or the ajr in marriage has not been described and thus left open to us from the looks of things.
Thus if the person who the ajr is being awarded to dosn't want anything valuable and asks for two roses. What then? Has anyone wronged themselves in this case? I see no restrictions nor can i imagine any wrongness in this.
Do you still think Ajr HAS to be valuable?
peace peace
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By the way i apologise for saying that you said finance
Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?
peace
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Peace N,
Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?
What does this mean
2282 .................waistashhidoo shaheedayni min rijalikum................
2282 .................bring two witnesses from among your men............You are right. In the context of 2282 "rijaal" can only mean "men" because it is contrasted with "imra'at"/woman.
The primary meaning of "rajul" is "one who goes out on foot" and in some signs it is used with this meaning, and in those signs the context refers to the one who goes out on foot to earn livelihood i.e. breadwinner. "Man" is a secondary meaning, because usually men go out on foot to earn livelihood. Sister Samia can better educate you on this.
Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"
The "through forgetfulness" is in brackets and is not there in Arabic.
Women can err/get confused because of premenstrual syndrome or PMS.
PMS (premenstrual syndrome) often includes both physical and emotional symptoms. Common symptoms are
acne
breast swelling and tenderness
feeling tired
having trouble sleeping
upset stomach, bloating, constipation, or diarrhea
headache or backache
appetite changes or food cravings
joint or muscle pain
trouble concentrating or remembering
tension, irritability, mood swings, or crying spells
anxiety or depressionhttp//www.womenshealth.gov/FAQ/premenstrual-syndrome.cfm
psychological symptoms of PMS
irritability
nervousness
lack of control
agitation
anger
insomnia
difficulty in concentrating
lethargy
depression
severe fatigue
anxiety
confusion
forgetfulness
decreased self-image
paranoia
emotional hypersensitivity
crying spells
moodiness
sleep disturbanceshttp//www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/adult_gyneonc/pms.cfm
The second woman witnesses just to remind the first woman in case she errs/gets confused because of PMS etc. So the actual testimony in court is only of one woman. If the first woman does not err then only she testifies and the second one does not testify. So testimony of one woman = one man.