Qu'ran and the Hijab/veil/niqab etc.?

herbman

has anyone read this book or does anyone has a pdf copy

http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2742/is_368/ai_n24988742/?tag=rel.res3

cause the author claim

"Unquestioned assumptions about statements supposedly made in the Koran proved to be wrong. The link of veiling as exclusively the preserve of women was proved wrong. I questioned the notion that veiling was a sign of subordination or associated to seclusion of Muslim women. I corrected western translations of Koranic statements and pointed out that assertions of veiling as an exclusively Muslim practice are wrong."

afridi220

33.59 Must be read in context, with what goes before and what goes after. The idea is not that women's must feel forever afraid of being molested. The idea is that those who threaten and molest women be get rid off, but that in the meantime, women do whatever they can to ward them off. It cannot be understood that molestation is an ordinara state of affairs and that therefore believing women should always be worried that they may be molested if the molesters feel that they "cannot recognize them sufficiently".

Salaam

peace
The Jews in medina used to harass Muslim women spreading rumors and passing bad remarks on them so god send down the following Ayas .

Dress code for Muslim women
Warning to Jews if they do not stop harassing Muslim ladies and spreading rumors then ??
3358
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.

3359

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful

3360
If the hypocrites and those having malady in their hearts and the ones who spread rumors in Madinah do not stop (their evil deeds), We will certainly stir you up against them, then they shall no longer live in it as your neighbors, but for a little while
3361
(and that too in a state of being) accursed. Wherever they are found, they shall be seized, and shall be killed thoroughly

peace

herbman

Please help I am trying to make a word by word translation for 3359

but I don't find the roo and signification for seems to be offense, but what is the root?

Thanks

Fahad1

peace Fahad,

It was considered as a general thing, but there are problems with this view

What do you make of points (2) and (3)?

The modification in outer-garment and the consequence for the perpetrator of not abiding by this identification code must either be made known to the community or this would have to be common knowledge amongst the community

This would only be the case if the munafiqeen were to be specifically allowed to hurt women other than the momin women. That is not the case. The dress code is there to minimize women getting hurt.

The authority is in place to fight/expel those persisting in this behaviour

The authority should be in place to order the adoption of the dress-code. But momin women who have already read or listened to that command in the Quran do not need an authority to tell them to adopt the dress code, of course.

What do you make of the use of "God is Forgiving, Merciful" line at the end of 3359?

I make only that God is "Forgiving, Merciful". What do you make?

If we accept your understanding, and open enmity then appeared, what would be your response as per your understanding of AQ for such a situation?

Where is "open enmity" hinted in the verse?

If you asked them to refrain as suggested in the verse after (3360), and they said "how do we tell which women is which?", what would you say/do?

Your question makes it sound as if the believers are specifically allowing the munafiqeen to hurt the non-believing women. The verse is not suggesting that the munafiqeen are allowed to hurt non-believing women but rather that the dress-code minimizes the chances of women getting hurt.

Thanks.

Fahad1

Are you purporting that the wives of the Prophet and the believing women were dressing indecently when this aya was revealed?

Not necessarily.

Actually they aya says absolutely nothing about decency, nor does it imply or hint at the molestation being due to that. The context doesn't hint to that either.

(Emphasis mine)

Actually, it "hints" exactly that.

huruf

At the indecency of the molesters you mean?
Also when they molest male believers?
Is that all they wanted? Just be indecent towards beliebing women?

What happened in -Bosnia where muslim women were massively raped was due to them no keeping to a specific dress-code. They wouldn't have been raped had they dressed differently?

Did actually all the women raped dress the same or dress indecently?

What is the purpose of that group of ayas?

Salaam

herbman

Peace,

Here is an hypothesis I will try to develop if God wills, and I hope you can help to support or reject this idea

I seek refuge in God against Satan the banished.

In 3359 we read the following

O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Dal-Nun-Waw (Dal-Nun-Alif) = To be near, come near or low, let down, be akin to.

JALABIB root is JIM-LAM-BA
Also JALIB means the he helped, he assisted

Also PR-Online take the root Jiim-Lam-Ba-Ba = Woman's outer wrapping garment, that which envelopes the whole body, wide garment for a woman, dominion or sovereignty or rule

The whole idea of the verse is to protect the women which are the weakest to be protected from offenses from offenders.
How to protect them? They have to be known, by the offenders.
Once they are known they will be no more offended.
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.

The problem is to find the correct meaning of a word which has no other reference in Qur?an, the only occurance we can find is with the root JLB.

Jiim-Lam-Ba = To drive/bring/convey/transport, to draw/attract/procure a thing, gain or earn, seek after or seek to gain, to raise cries/shouts/noises, chide or urge on, to threaten, bring together/assemble/gather/collect, commit a crime or offence, to heal, to help/aid or assist, take or borrow, to seek or demand, to cover or clad oneself.

This occurrence can be found in 1764 and means to assemble/collect/put together

In Lane?s we find JLBB under JLB and means garnement.

SO let?s take the origine of the word to try to understand the context and meaning.

The first meaning is to drive, bring one thing from one country to another or from one town to another. That supports the idea of migrating from one town to another.

So back in the context

By 9100 to 9103 we know some believers moved to Medina, they were the first and therefore a minority in a new town.

Some people from Medina were hypocrites and were therefore offending the minority.
At that time and still now in some countries/town when you are a stranger you are an easy victim for thieves/ aggressors/ offenders etc and that is why GOD promised to the offenders to be killed if they continue in their behaviors.

In conclusion

My idea here is that JALABIB does not mean a piece of tissue/ garnment to protect you from the offenders but a PERSON who can help you, defend you from offenders in a foreign town and who is well known by the citizen of that town so the immigrant are safe with him.

So the verse should look like

O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

This is an hypothesis and I am looking forward for yours comment to support or reject this idea.

Peace

SarahY

I'd like to know people's views on the word khimar

Fahad1

At the indecency of the molesters you mean?
Also when they molest male believers?
Is that all they wanted? Just be indecent towards beliebing women?

What happened in -Bosnia where muslim women were massively raped was due to them no keeping to a specific dress-code. They wouldn't have been raped had they dressed differently?

Did actually all the women raped dress the same or dress indecently?

What is the purpose of that group of ayas?

Salaam

The dress code does not prevent hurt, it minimizes the chances.

huruf

The dress code does not prevent hurt, it minimizes the chances.

So, were the wives of the prophet, more exposed to "hurt" before this "dress code"? How many years were they so exposed? Was it always or only after living among hypocrites and sick-hearted people?

Are existing muslim men hypocrites and sick hearted?

Do existing non muslim men rape only girls that dress a certain way or do they rather rape
those women less likely to give them trouble or only those they do not recognize or rather those they recognize?

What dress code minimized or maximized the chances of Bosnian women being raped?

Why being recognized should minimize the chances of being raped of the believing women? Molestation depended on what on being dressed in a particular way or on being recognized?

?Was it helpful or was it harmful for Bosnian women to be recognized as muslims so as not to be raped?

If it is not precisely that it allows you to be recognized, what is so magical about a dress-code that makes you inmune to molestation?

What is it exactly in these ayas that hints that it is talking about decency and not about something else, such as mobbing or harassing the believers, male or female. Were there any doubts that the wives of the Prophet were decent before this dress code or that they could be more decent still and so be rewarded by the hypocrites by not harassing them and that case why did they need in addition to be recognized? Please explain.

Does the Qur'an uphold the view that for men any fashion is swell and problemless, but that for women there is no fashion like Arabian fashion of the VII century and that any other is indecent?

Shouldn't some genetic manipulation be undertaken so that women are born already with the ability to grow a jilbab and some khumur at the apropriate time in their development in the same way that they start to menstruate and that males develop beards (those who do)? That might prove an interesting field where muslim scientists might pioneer research (Please not that this is sarcasm, just in case some lost soul might be shocked and start the rumor that muslims want to do just that. One never knows).

Salaam

Wakas

peace Fahad,

Re 2

This would only be the case if the munafiqeen were to be specifically allowed to hurt women other than the momin women. That is not the case. The dress code is there to minimize women getting hurt.

First of all, AQ only mentions harm to believing men/women. To assume anything else is going on (i.e. harm to other women) is a pure assumption. An assumption, your view seems to depend on I might add.

Re 3

The authority should be in place to order the adoption of the dress-code. But momin women who have already read or listened to that command in the Quran do not need an authority to tell them to adopt the dress code, of course.

I think you have misunderstood my point. I mean that there is little point in recommending a modification in dress code to believing women for their protection if you have no authority/power to do anything about it if it does not work. As essentially, this will basically be identifying your women, exposing them, and since you have no authority/power it makes the position your women are in more dangerous not less dangerous.

I make only that God is "Forgiving, Merciful". What do you make?

From my studies, I have found AQ to use its words precisely. So, when it says "Forgiving, Merciful" I ask myself, what is their to forgive or show mercy for? That is my question to you, unless you feel this wording has no relevance. Either way, let me know.

Where is "open enmity" hinted in the verse?

The whole point of recommending a modification in outergarment is so that they will be recognised and not harmed. Of course, you could argue it refers to a non-physical harm and non-physical recognition, i.e. it is referring to harming their reputation/integrity/character, and recognition refers to being recognised as decent/modest/righteous. How is "harm" and "recognised" used in AQ physical/literal or non-physical/metaphorical? (I have not studied this)

Also, do you think those with disease in their hearts will desist spreading such lies, if you feel it is about this only, just due to a modification in dress? I dont, I think they will desist only when given an ultimatum via dress-code indentification and they know the consequences.
Interestingly, modifying their dress code implies others were wearing it the same way as them previously, unless we assume momim women were dressed more indecently than others to begin with which is highly unlikely, thus we can only imagine what the people were saying about the non-momin women. Of course, this makes little sense. It makes more sense that momin men/women were targeted specifically due to hostility.

Further, I say it is open enmity, because of the punishment implied. It seems severe. So you will have to explain how the law of equivalence relates to these verses, i.e. lying about someone / slander about reputation/character, results in physically being run out of town and killed.

Your question makes it sound as if the believers are specifically allowing the munafiqeen to hurt the non-believing women. The verse is not suggesting that the munafiqeen are allowed to hurt non-believing women but rather that the dress-code minimizes the chances of women getting hurt.

My question was based on what AQ says. It refers to harm to momin men/women only, nothing else. It is very possible that momin men/women only have jurisdiction over what happens to their own or by their own, unless they are THE authority/rulers of the area.

I do not understand how your view leads to minimising chances of women getting hurt if you do not agree with open enmity, then I can only assume you think slandering is going on, nothing else, but the worst slander a person can do to a women is possibly say they are unchaste, but if this is the case, then their punishment is discussed in AQ, it is certainly not being run out of town and/or killed! So, by default, something else is going on.

huruf

From my studies, I have found AQ to use its words precisely. So, when it says "Forgiving, Merciful" I ask myself, what is their to forgive or show mercy for? That is my question to you, unless you feel this wording has no relevance. Either way, let me know.

A very wise remark and important for us to know. I know you address this question to Fahad and I do not know whether he is going two answer or not. However I would be interested to know what you or anybody else make of it. In sha Allah, it will be enlightening for us all to ponder this.

Salaam

Fahad1

Huruf,

First let me take you to the verse in question

It says "zaalika adna an u'rafna fa la u'zaina"

that is adna/nearer/closer that u'rafna/they will be recognized, FA/THEREFORE la u'zaina/they will not be harrassed.

That is,

a) the adoption of the dress code brings them closer to being recognized.

b) And THEREFORE, i.e. as a consequence of being recognized, they will avoid getting harrased/hurt/annoyed. That is the more "recognized" they are(due to the dress code), the less their chances of getting harrased.

So here I have attempted to show you that the adoption of the dress code makes the believing women better recognized, as a consequence of which she can avoid being harrased. Please let me know if you agree or not.

Now I will address your questions, only those which I think are relevant

So, were the wives of the prophet, more exposed to "hurt" before this "dress code"?

Yes.

Was it always or only after living among hypocrites and sick-hearted people?

Hypocrites and sick-hearted people can anywhere.

Why being recognized should minimize the chances of being raped of the believing women? Molestation depended on what on being dressed in a particular way or on being recognized?

"Hurt/annoyance/harrasment" in this verse depends upon "recognition". "Recognition" depends upon the dress code.

If it is not precisely that it allows you to be recognized, what is so magical about a dress-code that makes you inmune to molestation?

It allows you to be recognized, THEREFORE prevents "hurt/annoyance".

What is it exactly in these ayas that hints that it is talking about decency and not about something else, such as mobbing or harassing the believers, male or female.

The verse is saying that momin women should adopt the dress code as that is closer to them being recognized, therefore it will prevent hurt/annoyance/harrasment. If you think that the islamic dress code is not decent, what can I do?

Were there any doubts that the wives of the Prophet were decent before this dress code or that they could be more decent still and so be rewarded by the hypocrites by not harassing them and that case why did they need in addition to be recognized? Please explain.

The wives of the nabi are as prone to wrong-doing as any other women. This has been made very clear in the Quran.

Does the Qur'an uphold the view that for men any fashion is swell and problemless, but that for women there is no fashion like Arabian fashion of the VII century and that any other is indecent?

Can't you see that the Quran has layed more stress on women's "fashion" than on men's? You don't seem to like that, do you?
Do you think that the verse is commanding Arabian fashion for women?

Fahad1

Wakas, I will respond to your post in the morning, GW.

nsws1988

Peace

What happens back where I am from and probably other Islamic countries too is that the men will harrass women who are dressed indecently then when they see a modestly dressed woman they will act more respectful and pious. In the latter case the woman is recognised as a believing woman. It is hypocritical! One second they are checking out the indecently dressed then the next they are lowering their gaze.

huruf

Huruf,

First let me take you to the verse in question

It says "zaalika adna an u'rafna fa la u'zaina"

that is adna/nearer/closer that u'rafna/they will be recognized, FA/THEREFORE la u'zaina/they will not be harrassed.

That is,

a) the adoption of the dress code brings them closer to being recognized.

b) And THEREFORE, i.e. as a consequence of being recognized, they will avoid getting harrased/hurt/annoyed. That is the more "recognized" they are(due to the dress code), the less their chances of getting harrased.

So here I have attempted to show you that the adoption of the dress code makes the believing women better recognized, as a consequence of which she can avoid being harrased. Please let me know if you agree or not.

But that is what I am saying all along, that the the virtue of the dress has nothing to do with any amount of decency but with being recognized.

Now I will address your questions, only those which I think are relevant

Well, you have not answered any of my questions on Bosnian women and I think they are VERY, VERY relevant. VERY relevant indeed. In connection with the ayas in question they are as relevant as anything can be, as relevant as what happened on the occasion which is the subject of the ayas themselves. In fact I do not believe that you do not find them relevant, rather that you would want them not to be relevant.

If you think that the islamic dress code is not decent, what can I do?

You can play with words as much as you want. I don't care. But where does the aya qualify the instruction for that specific circumstance as islamic dress code? Your "islamic dress code" is given already in 7.26 y 24.31. This aya is nothing to do with any islamic dress code hypocrite driven and sick-hearted driven.

Hypocrites and sick-hearted people can anywhere.

Yes and this is what the Qur'an has in store for them if they do not mend

33.59

33.59. If the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbors except for a short while.

It seems though that now some people would be too willing to have hypocrites and heart-diseased amonst if that way they could force on women the "islamic" dress code they dream with, because the most important seems to be not to be rid of hypocrites and diseased hearts but to have some extra dress requirement imposed on women by hook or crook.

Can't you see that the Quran has layed more stress on women's "fashion" than on men's?

No, IT hasn't. But some would have liked it so and want to see it so. It isn't so.

Salaam

huruf

Peace

What happens back where I am from and probably other Islamic countries too is that the men will harrass women who are dressed indecently then when they see a modestly dressed woman they will act more respectful and pious. In the latter case the woman is recognised as a believing woman. It is hypocritical! One second they are checking out the indecently dressed then the next they are lowering their gaze.

I am afraid to ask what you mean by "indecent" and by "modestly".

Salaam

nsws1988

I am afraid to ask what you mean by "indecent" and by "modestly".

Salaam

Peace

Whatever is considered to these men as indecent and modest. It means different things to different societies and individuals.

God bless

huruf

OK. Mystery, whatever. To avoid confusion a suppose one can always disguise as a duck.

Salaam

Q_student

Peace

What happens back where I am from and probably other Islamic countries too is that the men will harrass women who are dressed indecently then when they see a modestly dressed woman they will act more respectful and pious. In the latter case the woman is recognised as a believing woman. It is hypocritical! One second they are checking out the indecently dressed then the next they are lowering their gaze.

Peace
You are absolutely right. Mischief mongers are present in every society.It is only ratio which is less or more in different locations.