4:15 House confinement till death, for what reason?
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Peace
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat4_files/4_15.gif
415 And as for those who are guilty of an indecency(fahisha) from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
What does "Fahisha" mean in this verse?
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Peace RasulHamsa,
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat4_files/4_15.gif
415 And as for those who are guilty of an indecency(fahisha) from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
What does "Fahisha" mean in this verse?I think that "fahisha" + the requirement for four witnesses indicates that it is public lesbian homosexual acts. In other words, lesbian pornography. So there is no worldly punishment for lesbians who are not doing it publicly. Also, notice that the way out is that they follow "sabil allah", the way of the god.
Another thing to note is that unlike 415, in 416 there is no requirement for four witnesses. So unlike female homosexuality which is not punishable if done in private, male homosexuality is punishable even if done in private.
Of course, on the day of the account all of those sins are punishable as made clear in 418.
Peace,
Ayman
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I think 415 is about prostitutes because it doesn't specify the number of women and lesbians don't always engage in group sex. I think "Confine them till they die or the god finds another way for them" means that prostitutes who choose to come under the great reading's jurisdiction are supposed to be kept under protective custody till the god makes it safe for them to leave their homes.
I think alazani (which occurs in 416) refers to two men or to a man and a woman. Perhaps it commands us to annoy the punter and the prostitute who are open about what they do but don't do it publicly enough for it to be witnessed by four people. They could be "annoyed" by being castigatigated and ostracized by the believers. Believers could refuse to do business with them, refuse to let them enter their homes and so on.
I don't know if my understanding of 415-16 is tenable, but it's certainly much more ethical than the traditional understanding that 415-16 are about homosexuals only. I don't believe the god has a problem with homosexuality because there appears to be nothing wrong with homosexuality.
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Peace RasulHamsa,
I think that "fahisha" + the requirement for four witnesses indicates that it is public lesbian homosexual acts. In other words, lesbian pornography. So there is no worldly punishment for lesbians who are not doing it publicly. Also, notice that the way out is that they follow "sabil allah", the way of the god.
Another thing to note is that unlike 415, in 416 there is no requirement for four witnesses. So unlike female homosexuality which is not punishable if done in private, male homosexuality is punishable even if done in private.
Of course, on the day of the account all of those sins are punishable as made clear in 418.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace,
Why the punishment for male homosexuality is not mentioned? All the crimes are punishable when noticed and proved. how can you prove male homosexuality when done in private but cannot for the females?
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Because it talks about 2 males doing fahisha . I can't think of anything here but gays .
416
Khalifa
The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Shakir
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.what is fahisha? Adultery, lewdness, indecency? 416 talk about a couple but in 415 its nisa'akum plural, why?
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416
Khalifa
The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Shakir
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.what is fahisha? Adultery, lewdness, indecency? 416 talk about a couple but in 415 its nisa'akum plural, why?
The verse about the women , I do think it is about lesbians because the punishment of adulteress is specified in another verse so we can't say both are the punishment of adultery so I don't think fahisha here means adultery .
The second verse obviously is about gays , it doesn't need much thinking .
Allah knows best .
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597995.0
thanks, interesting discussion there.
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416
Khalifa
The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Shakir
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.what is fahisha? Adultery, lewdness, indecency? 416 talk about a couple but in 415 its nisa'akum plural, why?
Fa-Ha-Shin = became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication
I'd say the primary meaning is "lewdness" but it includes "fornification/adultery".
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Peace
Fa-Ha-Shin = became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication
I'd say the primary meaning is "lewdness" but it includes "fornification/adultery".
If the primary meaning of "fahisha" is 'lewdness' which includes "fornication/Adultery" , what is the definition of "fornication" if not prostitution ? Or can we say that a mutually consenting adults in the privacy of their home committing fornication and for that we'd require four witnesses to the act of fornication ? Do you think this action warrants a house confinement until death as a punishment ? My current understanding of "fornication" is that it is similar to Zina or public sex ( or prostitution ) but perform by un-married couple or couples .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
If the primary meaning of "fahisa" is 'lewdness' which includes "fornication/Adultery" , what is the definition of "fornication" if not prostitution ? Or can we say that a mutually consenting adults in the privacy of their home committing fornication and for that we'd require four witnesses to the act of fornication ? Do you think this action warrants a house confinement until death as a punishment ? My current understanding of "fornication" is that it is similar to Zina or public sex ( or prostitution ) but perform by un-married couple or couples .
Peace
almarh0m
Edip-Layth - End Note 6 (415)
The relative pronoun in this verse is allati, which refers to a group of women. It indicates an organized prostitution, which might pose a grave health problem for the society. In a society that accepted the jurisdiction of the Quran, if a woman is proven four times to be involved in promiscuous sexual activity, she is considered a hazard to the society and should be quarantined. Perhaps there is also an implication for our time, where genetic identification helps us to find the real father of a child. Our genes are made of various combinations of four acid molecules Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thiamine. These four molecules, which are made of four different elements, function as witnesses for the identity of individuals to which they belong. The Quran does not necessarily require the witness to be an eyewitness. For instance, we bear witness to the oneness of God via our intelligence. The witness mentioned in 1226-27 is not considered a witness because he was present during the alleged incident. That witness did not say, "I saw with my eyes." The human witness mentioned in that story is proposing the testimony of circumstantial evidence, and logical conclusions based on both inductive and deductive reasoning. In other words, the Quran accepts the testimony of reliable circumstantial evidence just as it accepts the testimony of a reliable eyewitness.Rashad Khalifa - End Note 4 (415)
A woman witnessed by four people in the act of committing adultery on four different occasions, with four different partners, represents a dangerto public health. Such a woman is a depository of germs, and a health quarantineprotects the society from her. A good example of an exit that saves a quarantined woman ismarriage--someone may wish to marry her, and thus protect her and thesociety. -
I find merit in the idea that 4.15 and 4.16 must be read as one and that the "punishment" is the same for both.
I also find merit in the idea that 4.15 refers to prostitution and will go even further and say that 4.16 also refers to prostitution, male prostitution.
Summing up in gros, for amateurs we have zina, for professionals fahisha.
As to the question properly raised by Samia that if you punish just the prostitute what do you do with the client, since the health hazard and moral hazard posed by the latter is even greater, bearing in mind that the prostitute is known and therefore you are warned, but the client may go as a faithful husband and pose a threat of which their closest family, namely wife, is unaware. But as for that, if there are four witnesses for the prostitute, there must also be four witnesses for the client, and therefore he would be a zani.
It is true that in that case we could say she is also zaniya?
Here is where I think that there is a difference between the denomination given in 4.15 as of one of the nisaa' as oposed to the terms of muhsana or zauj or zaniya which are the terms used in aya 24 to deal with zina. Just as we have a special case where if the zauj were to commit fahisha he or she would be punished with half the punishment only, bearing in mind that prostitution is not usually a choice but the only way out for many women, or even when it is a choice is in such social circumstances of social disintegration where the whole society is degraded, the disposition mentioned in the Qur'an seems to human and reasonable. Keep them off the street, at homes (notice that it says buyutihinna, may be because many times they do not have one), not in the street, that is, the home as opposed to the street which is where unfortunate prostitutes are forced to look for their living and very often that of their children. Till death overtakes them or opens another issue, I suppose it means that any alternative, but not prostitution again. Makes a lot of sense to me.
The same would apply to 4.16. It being men, if they mend their ways usually it might be easier for them to reinsert.
As to the meaning of "amsikuhnna fil buyut", I must confess that I always have been at a loss as to why this "buyut" has been understood as jail and presented as such. I do not see any meaning of beit as jail, except that both being usually buildings and talking about women... I suppose it is tempting. But I cannot see the jail meaning anywhere. "Amsikuhunna"... I still remember when I lived among Arab people and I was handed things with the exclamation "amseki" (that is, take hold of it, do not let it fall). So, what can the most glorious and magnanimous Qur'an say but do take hold of those women, give them a proper home and do not let them fall and go back to the street, even if that means keeping them on the treasury till they die, but if they find another way to earn a living or another arrangement, good for them. And the same for the male prostitutes, except that as pointed, they are fewer and being male at least they do not have to fight with those added burdens women do the may not need as much to be "jailed".
Good insight Supernaut. You saw this prostitution possibility long time ago. And good insight too the proper understanding of nisaa' and not always and necessarily women.
Great thread and great contributions.
Salaam
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I find merit in the idea that 4.15 and 4.16 must be read as one and that the "punishment" is the same for both.
I also find merit in the idea that 4.15 refers to prostitution and will go even further and say that 4.16 also refers to prostitution, male prostitution.
Summing up in gros, for amateurs we have zina, for professionals fahisha.
I don't think it is correct if we say fahisha means male and female prostitution . The verse talk about 2 males only doing haram . If we don't see these 2 verses as punishment for lewdness then there won't be any for it when it is condemned in the Quran many times in the story of prophet Lut .
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Thanks huruf )
I agree that 415 isn't about punishing prostitutes and your analysis of the Arabic has reinforced my opinion. I also think that 415 applies only to those women who choose to come under the great reading's jurisdiction ("From among your women". I don't think 416 is about punishment either because it tells you to "annoy the two". Maybe 416 tells us to get in the face of punters and prostitutes and constantly remind them of how low and despicable they are. There's no prerequisite of four witnesses so I think 416 is about annoying people who're open about being punters and prostitutes but have never been witnessed.
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I don't think it is correct if we say fahisha means male and female prostitution . The verse talk about 2 males only doing haram . If we don't see these 2 verses as punishment for lewdness then there won't be any for it when it is condemned in the Quran many times in the story of prophet Lut .
Fahisha covers everything.
I have read the other thread on this question as pointed out by wakas
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597995.0it is worthwhile reading, and, as also stated in my previous post, I think this post by Tlepsh in that thread
"Peace Wakas and all,
In my opinion verse 4.16 is a continuation of verse 4.15. Both verses form one statement and it is about fahisha.
In 415 The women who commit fahisha are 3 or more women (allati) and they are from your women (min nisaikum). It is assured that they are from our women.
In 4.16 Fahisha is committed by two person (Allazani) from among you. (not from among your men) not (min rijalikum) or not (min nisaikum) but it is (minkum).
So this means Allazani are two persons either (two men) or (one man and one woman). If it were only two men then the word (min rijalikum) would be used instead of (minkum).
The punishment in verse 4.16 is the same punishment explained in verse 4.15. The punishment is the same punishment for the same wrong deed for men and women."
merits serious consideration. I think it is right, and as Samia pointed on some occasion, aya numbers are not part of revelation. So indeed, both ayas are part of the same statement, and one thing is the "punishment", which is already stated in 4.15 and another thing is to harass them, to not let it pass with them, but keep impressing on them so that they change their way of living.
Again alladhani includes male and male but also includes male and female, since it is not specifically stated that it is specifically speaking only of males.
Salaam
