4:15 House confinement till death, for what reason?
-
As huruf pointed out, fahisha covers many sins. Why do we just run for illegal sexual behaviour? This has already been dealt with, as well as its punishment. Prostitutes, since it is their profession, would be not be called "nisaa'", just as theirves were not called men or women who steal. Prostitutes can be covered under the term "zaani" which is the pattern for a professional, or someone doing whatever act as a professional. Same with "saariq" which has the same pattern.
Another point is that God spoke of "saariq and saariqa" and "zaaniya and zaaniy", but here we have "nissa'ikum" but no rijaal, not even "rijaalikum".
The address is to the community, men and women. Therefore these nisaa' are not women, but are related to the community, wheres "allthaan" is "minkum", men or women, part of the addressee.I thought thoroughly about this. The need for 4 witnesses is explicitly mentioned in slandour. This would also explain why "nissa'" is only mentioned, since those "remaining behind" have nothing to do but gossip, and thus are kept in their homes so that they have no more access to collect or spread gossips. But the others "among you" who gossip or exchange this harmful rumours should be rebuked. They cannot be confined to homes since they are active people. This, for me, solves the problem of punishment based on gender difference, by changing it to punishment based on convenience; that's activity and role of the doer of this "fahisha".
-
As huruf pointed out, fahisha covers many sins. Why do we just run for illegal sexual behaviour? This has already been dealt with, as well as its punishment.
Well zina is illegal sexual behaviour, but prostitution, although it implies and includes zina, is something else, and apart for the punishment for zina, there is no punishment foreseen for prostitution in the Qur'an is there? and as I pointed out before, is it a punishment what is provided for in 4.15 and 4.16? I do not think it is punishment but a means to fight prostitution, just as there have been means to fight slavery.
Prostitutes, since it is their profession, would be not be called "nisaa'",
I suppose it would be "thanks for the promotion", but if I follow your concept of nisaa' as those left behind, I can hardly think of any more left behind than prostitutes, who on top of everything frequently end up in that situation because that is the only way they have found in time to feed their family, usually their children, sometimes even other dependants. Any more left behind than that I can hardly think of. And to call it a profession I find it derissory. If we are thinking of high standing millionaire mistresses, they look great in films, but real life all along history what has produced is prostitution of poor defenceless women, often lead there by being raped or cheated or seduced by masters, boyfriends or even reltives. So to me, yes, nisaa', 100%. Unless we want to throw them to the garbage alltogether and forget about them because they are perfectly allright.
just as theirves were not called men or women who steal. Prostitutes can be covered under the term "zaani" which is the pattern for a professional, or someone doing whatever act as a professional. Same with "saariq" which has the same pattern.
Another point is that God spoke of "saariq and saariqa" and "zaaniya and zaaniy", but here we have "nissa'ikum" but no rijaal, not even "rijaalikum".So to speak of prostitutes you would have them called "faahishaat"? May be the Qur'an did not want to call them that. Other than that what, according to you, would their fahisa be or in what way does this aleya have a purpose or serves society?
I have another objection to this and it is that a saariq would still be a sariq even if he did steal only once, so that would not be a profession or craft, but an act. In the same way the zaani or zaaniya may be a person who only commits zina once. So I do not think it could be applied to prostitution, and the formulation in 4.15 and 4.16 rather depicts a conduct that is ongoing.
The address is to the community, men and women. Therefore these nisaa' are not women, but are related to the community, whereas "allthaan" is "minkum", men or women, part of the addressee.
Well as I understand it, the nisaa' are nisaa', in one sense or mostly in both senses, women and left behind, whether there are other non women among the nisaa' in this case, fine. Exactly that is the picture of prostitution. There may be all, but the bulk is always women, powerless and exploited and left behind women, with a few other wretches.
I thought thoroughly about this. The need for 4 witnesses is explicitly mentioned in slandour.
They are in the case of zina in An-Nur, and it is so explicitly said. In these ayas, what is written is what we have. If we are talking about prostitutes what is slander? Other than that the four witneses here are not required for punishment, but for putting them the nisaa' at home, and the four witnesses I think, could be understood to show fahisha, but not zina, ongoing fahisha, but not zina. It would be relentless on the nisaa' if the purpose was to scourge them or jail them, but not if the purpose is to take them off the street and house them properly, and that is what the aya provides for.
In this sense, I remark that it says "filbuyut" (in the homes/houses), not "fi buyutihinna" (their homes/houses). What do you make out of it? Could it be to house them like decent, ordinary people are housed, instead of on margins or red lights or whatever?
This would also explain why "nissa'" is only mentioned, since those "remaining behind" have nothing to do but gossip, and thus are kept in their homes so that they have no more access to collect or spread gossips. But the others "among you" who gossip or exchange this harmful rumours should be rebuked. They cannot be confined to homes since they are active people. This, for me, solves the problem of punishment based on gender difference, by changing it to punishment based on convenience; that's activity and role of the doer of this "fahisha".
Now I get what you mean with the slander part. Believe me, I have had to read it over and over and over to make any sense out of it. You mean the the fahisha that is charged on those nisaa' is that they slander other people. Is that it? I do not know. Doesn't convince me much. I think that is already covered in an-Nur, where it talks about those who spread that somebody has commited fahisha, whereas in 4.15 it speaks of those who commit fahisha, not those who spread it. An on the other hand I do not think the fact of being left behind is more prone to gossip than other situations. I suppose technically one could make it fit, but somehow to me the fit is not very satisfying.
Salaam
-
Peace Supernaut,
Sorry for the delayed reply.
I think 415 is about prostitutes because it doesn't specify the number of women and lesbians don't always engage in group sex.
Nor do prostitutes always engage in group sex. The plural here means that it can be one, two or group. This means that the number doesn't matter and it is about this being a public act (four witnesses). I think that it is more likely to be public homosexual intercourse, in other words it is pornography.
I think "Confine them till they die or the god finds another way for them" means that prostitutes who choose to come under the great reading's jurisdiction are supposed to be kept under protective custody till the god makes it safe for them to leave their homes.
I don't think there is a choice here. Pornongraphy is an illegal crime period. The women who engage in homosexual pornography are to be put under indefinite house arrest until they follow the god's way and stop such behavior.
I think alazani (which occurs in 416) refers to two men or to a man and a woman. Perhaps it commands us to annoy the punter and the prostitute who are open about what they do but don't do it publicly enough for it to be witnessed by four people. They could be "annoyed" by being castigatigated and ostracized by the believers. Believers could refuse to do business with them, refuse to let them enter their homes and so on.
I think it refers to two men. Unlike pornography, which is a crime, male homosexuality is a psychological disorder. This is why there is no requirement for four witnesses. You don't need four witnesses to diagnose and treat a psychological disorder.
The method prescribed in 416 is essentially aversion therapy or negative treatment. Aversion therapy pairs the pleasurable but unwanted arousal and an aversive stimulus (for example, bad smell, pain, electric shock, nausea).
I don't know if my understanding of 415-16 is tenable, but it's certainly much more ethical than the traditional understanding that 415-16 are about homosexuals only. I don't believe the god has a problem with homosexuality because there appears to be nothing wrong with homosexuality.
It is us who have problems. The god is showing us the way to align ourselves with his natural order. Homosexuality is a treatable psychological disorder. There are countless examples of male homosexuals who have been cured from this psychological disorder.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
Nor do prostitutes always engage in group sex. The plural here means that it can be one, two or group. This means that the number doesn't matter and it is about this being a public act (four witnesses). I think that it is more likely to be public homosexual intercourse, in other words it is pornography.
Yes, but prostitutes often work in groups. That's why there are whore houses. And why do you think it's more likely to be public homosexual intercourse? How does the Arabic of 415-16 support your understanding?
I don't think there is a choice here. Pornongraphy is an illegal crime period. The women who engage in homosexual pornography are to be put under indefinite house arrest until they follow the god's way and stop such behavior.
I think you're wrong. I think the wording of 415 (I rely on translations and dictionaries, but I think they're good enough) and all other verses in which chastity laws are prescribed make it clear that the great reading's chastity laws apply only to those who choose to come under the great reading's jurisdiction. Also, I believe 542-52 make it clear that different ideological groups can live according to their scriptures/constitutions.
I think it refers to two men. Unlike pornography, which is a crime, male homosexuality is a psychological disorder.
But it's my humble opinion that the Arabic of 416 doesn't really support your understanding. And male homosexuality isn't a psychological disorder. It was once considered one, but it isn't anymore.
This is why there is no requirement for four witnesses. You don't need four witnesses to diagnose and treat a psychological disorder.
Indeed, you don't need four witnesses to diagnose a psychological disorder, but male homosexuality isn't one.
It is us who have problems. The god is showing us the way to align ourselves with his natural order.
Homosexuality is quite natural and let's not appeal to nature because things that are "natural" aren't necessarily good.
Homosexuality is a treatable psychological disorder. There are countless examples of male homosexuals who have been cured from this psychological disorder.
Reparative therapy is likely a myth, homosexuality isn't a disorder and homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.
-
Peace Hadi,
Why do you consider male homosexuality a psychological disorder and not female homosexuality/lesbianism?
I think that female homosexuality/lesbianism is a less severe disorder and is more of a choice and thus can probably be easier controlled. This is why we rarely hear about female lesbians raping young girls while we hear all the time about male homosexuals raping young boys.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Supernaut,
Yes, but prostitutes often work in groups. That's why there are whore houses. And why do you think it's more likely to be public homosexual intercourse? How does the Arabic of 415-16 support your understanding?
In any language, the requirement for four witnesses implies that it is public.
I think you're wrong. I think the wording of 415 (I rely on translations and dictionaries, but I think they're good enough) and all other verses in which chastity laws are prescribed make it clear that the great reading's chastity laws apply only to those who choose to come under the great reading's jurisdiction. Also, I believe 542-52 make it clear that different ideological groups can live according to their scriptures/constitutions.
When WE judge we should judge with the truth (54 and not follow our fantasies. If you or I or anyone here is in a position where they have to issue a judgement then they should judge accordingly. We should also demand the same from our rulers. So, for example, we should strive to ban pornography in our communities and lobby for punishing the ultimate source, the porno professionals (zani and zaniya).
But it's my humble opinion that the Arabic of 416 doesn't really support your understanding. And male homosexuality isn't a psychological disorder. It was once considered one, but it isn't anymore.
Indeed, you don't need four witnesses to diagnose a psychological disorder, but male homosexuality isn't one.But the remedy prescribed in 416 is the same negative treatment prescribed by doctors for treating male homosexuality!
Homosexuality is quite natural and let's not appeal to nature because things that are "natural" aren't necessarily good.
Reparative therapy is likely a myth, homosexuality isn't a disorder and homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.It is not a myth. Until the 1970s, homosexuality was a treatable psychological disorder and it still is. The only difference between now and 1970s is not new medical findings. The only difference are the myths being propagated by the gay rights movement. The gay rights movement, unlike any other mental disabilities rights group is not pushing for a cure but is instead pushing for making the disorder worse.
Peace,
Ayman
-
I'd like to question the authority of ANYONE to be able to place one under house arrest in the first place. Esp if we're talking pornography, adultery, prostitution, or fornication. All of these are acts between two consenting adults. This isn't rape we're talking about.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been
made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in
God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break.
God is Hearer, Knower.Like Supernaut has said, one can choose to NOT fall under the jurisdiction of the Qur'an.
Also, men raping other men doesn't always imply homosexuality. In prisons, it's an act of dominance.
In ancient Greece, (from what I know) men often had sexual brotherly relationships with young boys. These men also had wives.
Also http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacch
-
Peace Ayman,
In any language, the requirement for four witnesses implies that it is public.
Yes, I know the wording of 415 implies a public act, but what makes you think it's public homosexual intercourse? "Your women" and fahisha don't indicate public lesbianism.
When WE judge we should judge with the truth (54 and not follow our fantasies. If you or I or anyone here is in a position where they have to issue a judgement then they should judge accordingly.We should also demand the same from our rulers. So, for example, we should strive to ban pornography in our communities and lobby for punishing the ultimate source, the porno professionals (zani and zaniya).
The truth is, having sex in public and being caught having sex on camera are vastly different. The zani and the zaniya are real people, but a pornographic video or a pornographic image aren't real people. They have no rights, thoughts or feelings. You could destroy a porn video and no one would feel the tiniest amount of physical pain. Furthermore, it's so easy to fabricate videos and pictures of people. To equate pornography with zina leads to a major moral dilemma.
But the remedy prescribed in 416 is the same negative treatment prescribed by doctors for treating male homosexuality!
Again, you seem to be reading homosexuality into 416. Doesn't alazi also refer to a man and a woman? What evidence do you have that it refers exclusively to two men? What evidence do you have that 415-16 are about homosexuals? All you've done thus far is claim 415-16 are about homosexuals, call homosexuality a disorder and equate zina with pornographic images and videos.
It is not a myth. Until the 1970s, homosexuality was a treatable psychological disorder and it still is. The only difference between now and 1970s is not new medical findings. The only difference are the myths being propagated by the gay rights movement. The gay rights movement, unlike any other mental disabilities rights group is not pushing for a cure but is instead pushing for making the disorder worse.
It wasn't the gay rights movement that removed homosexuality from the APA's list of psychological disorders; it was a straight male psychologist. Homosexuality is just about as "treatable" as heterosexuality. I could get any straight man to hate the idea of having sex with women if I subjected him to aversion therapy. And there are new findings with regard to homosexuality! There is plenty of evidence now that homosexuality is the result of the way an unborn baby's brain develops. There's also genetic evidence for homosexuality.
A mental disorder is something that impairs a person's life and causes distress and can lead to further suffering. Homosexuality has been observed in every culture and in no culture has homosexuality been seen to be the root cause of distress and impairment. What causes distress and suffering to homosexuals is a primeval, irrational and bigoted attitude towards homosexuality. Let's for a second assume that the stupid, dishonest and completely unscientific ministries who claim to have a "cure" for homosexuality are right. What then? If homosexuality really is "treatable", why should it be treated? What harm does it cause? What is the rational basis for deeming it immoral? I refuse to believe that the god, who commands us to be rational, would tell us "Homosexuality is wrong because I say so!".
-
I think that female homosexuality/lesbianism is a less severe disorder and is more of a choice and thus can probably be easier controlled. This is why we rarely hear about female lesbians raping young girls while we hear all the time about male homosexuals raping young boys.
Peace,
Ayman
That is such an insidious thing to say! You've implied a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia, whereas there really is none! Fixated pedophiles are attracted to individuals based on their age. The younger a person is, the more attractive a pedophile finds them. It matters not whether the young person's a boy or a girl.
-
I'd like to question the authority of ANYONE to be able to place one under house arrest in the first place. Esp if we're talking pornography, adultery, prostitution, or fornication. All of these are acts between two consenting adults. This isn't rape we're talking about.
Beautifully words! However, I think that anyone who chooses to come under the great reading's jurisdiction can be put under protective custody for prostitution. You see, they're not being confined to their homes against their will. They're allowing people who they regard as their allies (971) to intervene and make things right for them. It's like an alcoholic allowing their friends and family to violate their right to drink themselves to death.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been
made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in
God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break.
God is Hearer, Knower.Like Supernaut has said, one can choose to NOT fall under the jurisdiction of the Qur'an.
Also, men raping other men doesn't always imply homosexuality. In prisons, it's an act of dominance.
Thank you! )
-
I can't see that they are confined at all. They re to be housed till their death or till they have another way of making a living. Please look up the meaning of "sabil" (means, way, possibility). I do not get the picture of women kept inside walls forever, but of women able to move around for normal busines or needs but properly and decently housed out of circuits where they could be pulled to their previous fahisha. So most definitely, as far as I can ascertain, they are not imprisoned, nor jailed nor confined. And it is not a punishment. If it was, what is the use of saying "till God gives them a means or possiblity"? and besides no mention is made of repentance with the possibility of remission? Everybody can repent except them? Again the wording used does not suggest reclusion, but housing and protection from want till they die or till God gives them other ways of making their living. And this is in line with all the other quranic injuctions for the protection of orphans, widows, needy people, summing up, nisaa'.
I still think that 4.16 refers to men prostitutes. Since for men it is not usually so much of a problem for changing their ways is relied on pounding on them the need to change and the repentance. Annoying them and annoying their clients.
I am fairly convinced about 4.15. About 4.16 may be would welcome further discussion.
Salaam
-
What happens is many people read the Medina verses as if its talking to them. The reader of the Koran assumes the verses are talking about him, since he reads it as directed towards him. The Koran talks to Muhammad and his community in Medina. Therefore the reader of the Koran sees it talking to him. "
"Oh you who believe" or "If so and so, then so and so", or "when you so and so then so and so". The verses about Moses or Jesus or Lot and Abraham is presented in the Koran as them. Its talking about them and not talking to them. The problem is that community of the Medina is not present today. So we are still talking about a them. Everytime we try to interpret or understand those verses we are always left to speculate, since that community is not present today.
Hadiths were a way to recreate the them into today. They tried to present that community in a present form. By reliving those days and recreating the events and circumstances and names and faces of that community, hadiths tries to bring a present context to that community. Its an attempt to present the them as us by making us relive that community and make us feel we are among that community. Hadiths portray a presence for us within that community.
But its a fictituous presence. Between us and that community is 1,400 years, a longer time between that community and Jesus(about 700 years). So we are left within these two worlds. The world of the Koran where we speculate about that community and the events that happened and the verses that were brought down regarding, and between the fiction that the clerics and their sources try to reveal to us. Either way its still a them. Its from the "Ghaib", the unseen world.
-
Peace Yuhanna,
I'd like to question the authority of ANYONE to be able to place one under house arrest in the first place. Esp if we're talking pornography, adultery, prostitution, or fornication. All of these are acts between two consenting adults. This isn't rape we're talking about.
Prostitution and fornication between consenting adults in private are not punishable in this low life.
Adultery is punishable only if the spouse doesn't deny the accusation and therefore as Supernaut said "chooses to come under god's jurisdiction".
We are only talking about pornography (public sex). Public sex is illegal in almost all countries. Lesbians who engage in it will not just be placed under house arrest but they will be arrested and certainly go to prison in the US, Europe and most countries. Public sex EVEN if it is between husband and wive is universally illegal. So the "zania" and "zani" being married to each other is irrelevant and this is made clear in the great reading.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been
made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in
God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break.
God is Hearer, Knower.There is no compulsion in our obligation to the god. One can choose to believe whatever he or she wants. This doesn't mean that people can go around committing crimes such as murder and public sex without consequences.
Like Supernaut has said, one can choose to NOT fall under the jurisdiction of the Qur'an.
If someone has public sex in California and they get arrested, they can't use as their defense "I choose to not fall under the law of the state of California".
Also, men raping other men doesn't always imply homosexuality. In prisons, it's an act of dominance.
In ancient Greece, (from what I know) men often had sexual brotherly relationships with young boys. These men also had wives.
Also http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacch?Whatever it is, it is a treatable psychological disorder.
Peace,
Ayman
-
And it is not a punishment. If it was, what is the use of saying "till God gives them a means or possiblity"? and besides no mention is made of repentance with the possibility of remission? Everybody can repent except them?
its a punishment thats why four witnesses are required, and yes they can always repent
3135 And those who when they commit an indecency(ة or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults -- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat3_files/3_135.gif -
its a punishment thats why four witnesses are required, and yes they can always repent
3135 And those who when they commit an indecency(ة or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults -- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat3_files/3_135.gifThe fact that four witnesses are needed how is it a proof that it is a punishment? By four witnesses you prove the fahisha, but you do not prove that it is a punishment. For murder or theft you do not need four witnesses, but still it doesn't mean that there is no punishment.
How does it work that God brings about a means for them. What kind of means is that that they get rid of a punishment, how do whoever is in charge of administering the punishment realise that God has brought about a means for them? And what kind of punishment is that that can last from nothing to the whole life? Isn't that too much of a variation which doesn't depend on the gravity of the crime commited but on how soon orif ever will God procure for them some means?
I don't see there the neceesary characteristics of a fair or equitable punishment.
As to forgiveness and repentance, in 3.135, the same as in 4.17, the forgiveness being mentioned is from Allah, and refers to sins, and no judicial punishment is thereby averted. No forgiveness for crimes seems to be foreseen for what is laid down in 4.15 if what you say is true that it is a punishment.
Salaam
-
Peace Yuhanna,
Prostitution and fornication between consenting adults in private are not punishable in this low life.
do you mean they are allowed when done in private? if not then no crime is punishable until it is noticed and proved.
-
Peace Ayman,
Prostitution and fornication between consenting adults in private are not punishable in this low life.
Adultery is punishable only if the spouse doesn't deny the accusation and therefore as Supernaut said "chooses to come under god's jurisdiction".
Forgive me, but I think you misunderstood me. I think only those who choose to come under the god's jurisdiction can be punished for zina. It is my humble opinion that 242-3 merely tell us how to punish zina and 244 tells us the categories of people who can be convicted of zina ("protected women", which maybe refers to women who choose the protection from immorality that the god's law offers and I think the context in which 244 appears makes it clear that muslim men can also be convicted of zina).
We are only talking about pornography (public sex). Public sex is illegal in almost all countries. Lesbians who engage in it will not just be placed under house arrest but they will be arrested and certainly go to prison in the US, Europe and most countries.
Just because something is illegal in many countries doesn't mean that it's okay to make that thing illegal for everyone. It's probably illegal to express the religious opinions you have in places like Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, the UAE and other godforsaken countries, but that doesn't mean censorship is a morally defensible thing.
So the "zania" and "zani" being married to each other is irrelevant and this is made clear in the great reading.
I agree.
There is no compulsion in our obligation to the god. One can choose to believe whatever he or she wants. This doesn't mean that people can go around committing crimes such as murder and public sex without consequences.
Public sex and murder are fundamentally different. Murdering someone is violating their right to live. Having sex in public is not a violation of any logically defensible right. The argument that public sex is gross is subjective. Some people find other perfectly legal things even worse.
If someone has public sex in California and they get arrested, they can't use as their defense "I choose to not fall under the law of the state of California".
Many American laws aren't based on reason. Many American laws are completely nonsensical.
Whatever it is, it is a treatable psychological disorder.
Simply because you say so? Homosexuality doesn't fit the criteria of a mental disorder so I'm quite sure it isn't. You've not explained why you think homosexuality's a mental disorder.
-
The fact that four witnesses are needed how is it a proof that it is a punishment? By four witnesses you prove the fahisha, but you do not prove that it is a punishment. For murder or theft you do not need four witnesses, but still it doesn't mean that there is no punishment.
How does it work that God brings about a means for them. What kind of means is that that they get rid of a punishment, how do whoever is in charge of administering the punishment realise that God has brought about a means for them? And what kind of punishment is that that can last from nothing to the whole life? Isn't that too much of a variation which doesn't depend on the gravity of the crime commited but on how soon orif ever will God procure for them some means?
I don't see there the neceesary characteristics of a fair or equitable punishment.
As to forgiveness and repentance, in 3.135, the same as in 4.17, the forgiveness being mentioned is from Allah, and refers to sins, and no judicial punishment is thereby averted. No forgiveness for crimes seems to be foreseen for what is laid down in 4.15 if what you say is true that it is a punishment.
Salaam
even spreading fahisha is punishable, how come fahisha itself is not?
2419
Surely, those who love to see Fahisha spread among the believers, shall be punished in this world and in the life to come. For, God knows and you do not know.
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat24_files/24_19.gifrepentance only make someone as respectable in a society as one was before. If after the punishment one doesn't repent and keep repeating crime again will retain the status of a criminal. two crucial words are used there and protection from the adverse effects of wrong actions.