4:15 House confinement till death, for what reason?
-
Everything is "allowed" if it's done in private.
733
-
Rasul, nobody is questioning the badness of fahisha, just as nobody questions the badness of zina, or the badness of slavery, but that does not mean that in order to eradicate it as much a possible, different means are resorted to.
At any rate, a prostitute, as well as anybody else, can be punished as zaniya if four witnesses testify, and can be punished as a slanderer equally if four witnesses testify.
But your contention is that what I say is a means of fighting prostitution, taking th prostitutes off the street to offer them a new way of living, you say is a punishment. I pointed out several reasons and characteristics why I think that it is not a punishment. So what is it that makes it a punishment according to you.
Salaam
-
Salaam,
as the verse 16 says if they repent and amend then leave them, so there is no need for house confinement till death, it is needed when the guilty is not willing to change.
Rasul, nobody is questioning the badness of fahisha, just as nobody questions the badness of zina, or the badness of slavery, but that does not mean that in order to eradicate it as much a possible, different means are resorted to.
At any rate, a prostitute, as well as anybody else, can be punished as zaniya if four witnesses testify, and can be punished as a slanderer equally if four witnesses testify.
But your contention is that what I say is a means of fighting prostitution, taking th prostitutes off the street to offer them a new way of living, you say is a punishment. I pointed out several reasons and characteristics why I think that it is not a punishment. So what is it that makes it a punishment according to you.
Salaam
-
Peace RasulHamza,
do you mean they are allowed when done in private? if not then no crime is punishable until it is noticed and proved.
No it is not allowed just like setting up partners with the god is not allowed. However, just like setting up partners it is allowed and is not punishable by the state in this low life. On the other hand, in the hereafter, it will go on the negative scale and be balanced against any positive things that one has done. If it makes the negative scale tip over then the punishment is eternal hell. So yes, it is definitely punishable in the hereafter but not by the state in this low life.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace RasulHamza,
No it is not allowed just like setting up partners with the god is not allowed. However, just like setting up partners it is allowed and is not punishable by the state in this low life. On the other hand, in the hereafter, it will go on the negative scale and be balanced against any positive things that one has done. If it makes the negative scale tip over then the punishment is eternal hell. So yes, it is definitely punishable in the hereafter but not by the state in this low life.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
for setting up partners with the god, previous nations were punished in this very life. And yes setting up partner with god is punishable by state as well just consider the example god has made fahisha haram and if some one follow ones own desires instead of god's commandment its setting up your desires a partner with god, and fahisha is punishable by the state. so setting up partners with god is punishable by the god in this life and by the state as well.
-
Prostitution and fornication between consenting adults in private are not punishable in this low life.
Not punishable by humans, yes. I'm sure God punishes even the thought of lusts in her own ways.
We are only talking about pornography (public sex). Public sex is illegal in almost all countries.
Like Supernaut said, just because it's officially illegal doesn't make it okay for it to be illegal in the first place. There could be a universal law tomorrow disallowing sex except for the purpose of pro-creation.
Lesbians who engage in it will not just be placed under house arrest but they will be arrested and certainly go to prison in the US, Europe and most countries.
Define the act of "sex."
Using the above definition, explain in detail how two women engage in the act of "sex."
Also, please explain how two females committing such an act are infringing on your life, your liberty, or harming your property.
Public sex EVEN if it is between husband and wive is universally illegal. So the "zania" and "zani" being married to each other is irrelevant and this is made clear in the great reading.
For all we know, there was once a culture where this was the norm.
There is no compulsion in our obligation to the god. One can choose to believe whatever he or she wants. This doesn't mean that people can go around committing crimes such as murder and public sex without consequences.
Are you sure the above verse isn't relating to duress? I.e. implying that no one person has authority to compel another to do ANYTHING.
Public sex isn't murder. It doesn't impede on ANYONE'S right to life or liberty. It might tempt people. But I'm sure people that we as believers are mindful of our eyes and thoughts enough to know to look away when such a situation arises infront of us. Right? Right?
This "corruption of society" excuse is the very similar to the excuse I remember a few "muslim" men using a few years ago. The situation was as follows some or other mosque was allowing men and women to pray in the same room. A few men raised concerns about women in front of them being a distraction. IE. the men couldn't control their thoughts and eyes enough to not be distracted by women infront of them bending over to prostate.
If salat is supposed to be what it is, their mind wasn't where it was supposed to be.
If mentally prostrating to God's laws is supposed to be an everyday thing, those actually following these law wouldn't even twitch no matter if it's a public sex or public orgy.
If someone has public sex in California and they get arrested, they can't use as their defense "I choose to not fall under the law of the state of California".
They should very well be able to.
Whatever it is, it is a treatable psychological disorder.
All humans are actually bisexual. )
Trying to control the populace will be the downfall of every system there is. -
Not punishable by humans, yes. I'm sure God punishes even the thought of lusts in her own ways.
Like Supernaut said, just because it's officially illegal doesn't make it okay for it to be illegal in the first place. There could be a universal law tomorrow disallowing sex except for the purpose of pro-creation.
Peace All
It is the duty of Righteous People when they come in power they have to
1Establish system of "Salaat"
2Establish good deeds (order them)
3revent the Bad acts (Forbid).2241
(2241) Allah will surely help those people who help Him *84 Allah is indeed All-Powerful, All-Mighty. These are the people who, if We give them power in the land, will establish .Salat, pay the Zakat dues, enjoin what is right and forbid what is evil, *85 and the final decision of all affairs is in the hand of Allah.May be Prostituition Promoters may not like the interference of Islamic state to prevent this ugly act.
Regards -
Does "power in the land" imply state authority over the dwellers of an area?
Define salat.
Define zakat.
Is the command to enjoining what is right and forbidding what is evil directed towards the reader, or implying that the reader is responsible to make others do so, by force if necessary?
-
Also, the future members of this so-called "islamic state" should make an effort to be free of temptation themselves before they start enforcing enjoinment of good on the rest.
-
Does "power in the land" imply state authority over the dwellers of an area?
Define salat.
Define zakat.
Is the command to enjoining what is right and forbidding what is evil directed towards the reader, or implying that the reader is responsible to make others do so, by force if necessary?
The argument went back to square one rotfl
-
Salaam,
as the verse 16 says if they repent and amend then leave them, so there is no need for house confinement till death, it is needed when the guilty is not willing to change.
But the change is provided for. If Allah brings about for them other means or possibilities. May be to keep them off the street may be imposed but that does not mean that it is a punishment, because, as I said, a punishment is not elastic. It cannot go from nothing to the whole life for the same crime. In this case society must maintain these women till death if they do not find other means. If it was a punishment why not throw them in jail to start with? I understand that it is putting on the society the burden of keeping these women off the street with a decent living, the only way it can logically pretend that these women do not do it out of need.
Salaam
-
Well, some of us don't think 415 prescribes a punishment. I think the "punishment" for a known punter and a known prostitute are isolation and hostility ("You shall annoy the couple", but if four people witness a punter having sex, then he is to be treated like an adulterer.
-
I asked a question and no one of those who promote that these women are prostitutes answered it. These prostitutes are evidenced by four witnesses. What about their partners? What's their punishment? How does this differ from "zina"?
I thought I had answered that, but anywa, but agree with supernaut if four witnesses testify they committing zina, the prostitute and the client both will be punished.
If there are not four witnesses that a client and a prostitute have commited zina, nothing can be done against them. But that is why I also think that when it says "ya'tina al fahisha" it is referring to a conduct, more than to an act , and also it being a non finished action, means it is ongoing. And there can be four witnesses that they are soliciting or provoking or inviting to zina without them being witnesses of zina. Because that it what it says, witnesses of the fact that they "ya'atina el fahisha", not of zina, and not of one act of fahisa in particular. In fact, the imperative is used and asking to "get four witnesses" of that, not to wait see if some four witnesses come forward, whereas when it is talking about zina an criminalising it, it says nothing can be done without four witnesses, but it does not encourage to do anything about getting them. Why would the Qur'an be specially after women in order to punish them? For me it is precisely because it is not after punishing them, but after ginving them a way out of fahisha that it asks for action.
On the other hand, unless it is here, there is no other part of the Qur'an where prostitution is considered that I can think of now. A book like this, where nothing is missing, where in fact women have been treated as full individuals and their promotion to their full human standing affirmed, it seems to me that it is quite in order that it should touch on prostitution since it is a social ill that eats at them very predominantly, today too. Unless we think it is a small matter and that those women indeed do not matter.
Salaam
-
Salaam huruf, all
Those four witnesses upon whose testimony resides the punishment what are the "witnessing"? Do prostitutes perform in public? If so, then this is zina, and their partners are similarly punished.
If not, four witnesses are not possible.There's another "fahisha" that requires four witnesses slandering. This is why my understanding of "nisaa'" as idle persons, not working. And this is why those who do it among the "rijaal" have different punishment. So, punishment here is not based on gender differences, but of circumstances of the individual, and in a way not to harm this individual in other aspects of their lives, nor the society by deprivation of the activity of the "rijaal"..
-
Peace Samia,
I agree with your understanding. I have a question though that if four witnesses make it a zina/public sex then why are they also not being lashed 100 times? I think these signs are referring to fahisha other than zina because of the remedy prescribed.
-
I think it's illogical to treat slander as a crime because slander doesn't violate an individual's person or property.
How it does not violate a person's life?! It ruins it.
And it is a crime, even per the qur'aan
2423Lo! as for those who accuse the "muhsanaat", cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom
244
And those who accuse the "muhsanaat" but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
-
Peace Samia,
I agree with your understanding. I have a question though that if four witnesses make it a zina/public sex then why are they also not being lashed 100 times? I think these signs are referring to fahisha other than zina because of the remedy prescribed.
Thanks peace
-
I agree that four witnesses are rquired, but to witness soliciting, provoking and inviting to zina, you do not need to perform zina in public. I think that the witnesses witness to that, to those invitations or promptings which are obvious and clear but which are not zina, because then the penalty is already fixed on 100 lashes. For slander the penalty is fixed in 80 lashes. So if it was slander it should not be "confinement" for nisaa' nor annoyance for rijaal, but 80 lashes for both.
I do not see either in what way the need for four witnesses for zina and for slander of xesual mores precludesis an impediment imposing the requisite of four witnesses to determine other matters nor on what basis it is predicated that 4.15 belongs to the domain of the aya on slander. They are independent, as I see. If not, please show how. Slander is already penalsed with 80 lashes. Would it be 80 lashes + "confinement" from 0 to perpetuity + annoyance?
Salaam