Bakkah
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Peace ES818,
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
The Christians oriented their churches' apse with the winter sunrise. This can be seen in early churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene. As can be seen from the article of Saifullah et al., this is also the case for the Fustat mosque in Egypt where the apse is precisely aligned with the winter sunrise and not with Jerusalem or present day Mecca. All one can conclude from the data is that there was no one specific direction.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
People often misunderstand what Hagarism is about. The most important point of Hagarism has nothing to do with Mecca or Qibla. It has to do with the cultural forces affecting the new Islamic empire. In fact, Hagarism inadvertently proves that the great reading dates to a much earlier time than the invention of the town called Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
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Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
Peace
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Peace ES818,
Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
It depends what you mean. Do you mean the so-called Hajj (capital H) or the common "hajj" (lower case). Both predate the Islamic empire.
The primary elements of the sectarian so-called Hajj predate the Islamic empire and goes back to Nabataean times. You find therefore similar stone cubes or rectangular figures in places such as Petra. They symbolize the Nabataean idols, namely the chief goddess Allat. The same goes for the Black Stone, where you find similar black stones in ancient times associated with fertility godesses such as Aphrodite. It is interesting that the Aphrodite legend states that her beauty was kept in a black cube. The practice of putting idols in a black box dates back to the late ancient Egyptian kingdoms. Perhaps by that time people started to realize that the statues of idols were nothing but stones so the priests needed a different approach. So the priests would keep idols such as Horus in a black box with an opening in one of its corners. The common people would then submit their requests to the priest and the priest in turn would whisper their supplication to the idol through the opening. The common people were not allowed to look in the cube. Rituals such as spinning seven times around the idol were described in the fourth century CE by Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis when writing about the cult of the Nabataean.
The earliest post-Islamic document to reference the sectarian Hajj comes not from an Islamic source but from John of Damascus who wrote in the 730s CE of the Arabs still worshipping Aphrodite (the hellenized Allat) and kissing and rubbing a stone that represents her head (Source Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
On the other hand, the common noun "hajj" has nothing to do with the above and was first used by the people of the book to mean "feast". Please see the following discussion on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
So essentially, like Christians who continued their pagan traditions under new Christianized names such as Christmas, Muslims too continued their pagan traditions by borrowing common nouns from the great reading to name their pagan idols and rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Cushan,
This is not accurate. The word that appears is "mecca" (lower case) not "Mecca". It is a common noun that means "destruction". Here is the translation of Yusufali and the corrected version
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
Evidence is required for this translation.
Secondly the word "Makkata" cannot be translated because it is a proper noun.
Regards -
Peace ES818,
The Christians oriented their churches' apse with the winter sunrise. This can be seen in early churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene.
Peace,
Ayman
This is only partly true. Many very early churches were built on the sites of old pagan temples that did face the sunrise, but later ones were built with the alter in the east so the congregation (and Priest when in prayer) would be facing the so-called "Holy Land" where Jesus was born and died. In the west, of course, both the sunrise and the holy land are in almost the same direction. This is also a throw back from western Judaism where Synagogues face east to the site of Salomon's Temple.
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Peace Rev.John,
This is only partly true. Many very early churches were built on the sites of old pagan temples that did face the sunrise, but later ones were built with the alter in the east so the congregation (and Priest when in prayer) would be facing the so-called "Holy Land" where Jesus was born and died. In the west, of course, both the sunrise and the holy land are in almost the same direction. This is also a throw back from western Judaism where Synagogues face east to the site of Salomon's Temple.
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rev.John,
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
whatever
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Dear Ayman
Do not avoid these two questions.
What is your source which says that
Macca = Destruction
Secondly ,it is being used as Diptote in the Quran.What is the reason for this use ?
{I hope this time you know what the diptote is }
Regardswe also hope you use your own brian this time instead of relying on authorities. welcome back welcome
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whatever
I guess you knew that!
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Perhaps it is vague about location because the specific location is irrelevant?
Just a thought.
Peace
So you are of the opinion that Quran is "Vague" about location ?
Very strange statement about the book which claims to be "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"
Mecca is on the surface of the earth ,a historical city. If you do not know it does not mean the Quran is vague.Regards
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QS,
Does The Quran tell us how to brush our teeth? If you answer no, can I then say this is strange for a book that calls itself "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"? Of course, any person capable of using their logic will know The Quran saying it is clear or distinguishing/detailed means almost nothing unless we know with regard to what. Once we know with regard to what, then we can contemplate on your point to see if it has any relevance. So tell us QS, if The Quran says it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun", what is it with regard to?
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QS,
Does The Quran tell us how to brush our teeth? If you answer no, can I then say this is strange for a book that calls itself "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"? Of course, any person capable of using their logic will know The Quran saying it is clear or distinguishing/detailed means almost nothing unless we know with regard to what. Once we know with regard to what, then we can contemplate on your point to see if it has any relevance. So tell us QS, if The Quran says it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun", what is it with regard to?
Peace Brother
Wrong /absolutely Wrong example.
Did Quran mention about brushing of teeth ?
But Quran has definitely talked about Mecca ?
How can you compare" mentioned " and "unmentioned " facts .It is just like comparing mangoes with Horses.
Mecca is a well known historical city.Quran did not need to tell its location.It is not a book of Geography.
"9/11 terrorism occured in USA ." Does this statement need to tell where and what USA is ?
The Al-Quran is not vague but our minds which are vague.But we put the blame of our lack of understanding on the Quran.
Unfortunately common sense is very uncommon.
Regards -
Ahh, it seems that according to you everything it mentions it details is this your position?
So if it mentions slaughtering of animals, it provides all the how and what with etc? If you answer no, then is your position it provides extra info to the extent that is necessary to fulfil the goal/objective?
Thus, I'd assume you would argue Mecca (as in the place), since it allegedly mentions it, that is enough to fulfil all that is involved with it?
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Ahh, it seems that according to you everything it mentions it details is this your position?
So if it mentions slaughtering of animals, it provides all the how and what with etc? If you answer no, then is your position it provides extra info to the extent that is necessary to fulfil the goal/objective?
Thus, I'd assume you would argue Mecca (as in the place), since it allegedly mentions it, that is enough to fulfil all that is involved with it?
Peace Brother
Instead of putting question first decide "Is Mecca not existant on the surface of the Earth ?
Do not circumvent the basic issue please
Regards -
Ahh, so it is I who is circumventing?
For sake of argument, let me answer your question yes, there exists a place called Mecca on the surface of the earth.
So, now answer my question, when Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?
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Ahh, so it is I who is circumventing?
For sake of argument, let me answer your question yes, there exists a place called Mecca on the surface of the earth.
So, now answer my question, when Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?
Peace
You admitted that Mecca exists on the surface of the Earth.It means Quran is not Vague as you are claiming.
And it is the answer to your Question.Its lack of vagueness is "Tibyaanun li kulli Shain".
So please stop blaming the Quran.
Regards -
QS statement 1 You admitted that Mecca exists on the surface of the Earth.
QS statement 2 It means Quran is not Vague as you are claiming.Statement 1 is not necessarily related to statement 2. Please establish the connection first before drawing a conclusion.
And you did not answer my question, which I will re-quote
When Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?My question is relatively simple, yet you avoid it. If you do not answer, I will assume you have no answer.
