Quran only?
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peace hope4, all,
I gave my take on "hikma" here if interested
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.msg135168#msg135168Thanks for that Wakas,
I suppose the examples from the Great Reading at first will sound like a collection of stories with no real relevence, but as time goes on the examples will somehow be linked to your life and thus help you make right choices in life. Am I on the right track by saying that?
Peace
Hope
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hikma/wisdom/judgement can be extracted from the stories, yes.
Thankyou,
One more question, if we look for hikma/wisdom/judgement in other books besides the Quran this will not be relevent as this is someone elses intepretation and may or may not reflect or be a good example for ones own life, an example will be that a teacher can teach a subject to many students but ultimately the students that gain the top grades are those who have made the correct connections to help them understand what is being taught. Would you say thats the way the Quran works?
Peace
Hope
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and Yes Bukhari may Allah reward him for all his efforts and sacrifices
Bukhari called Abu Hanifa - the founder of the Sunni Hanafi school of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) - an "unreliable person". The truth is that Abu Hanifa was a much more knowledgeable person than Bukhari. Why should we consider Bukhari himself as "reliable" ?
These are the words of Islamic scholar "Yasar Nuri Ozturk".
Also, Abu Hanifa considered only 17 hadiths as authentic.
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Really only 17? i wonder what he accepted
I'm not sure what you mean here, I read this in an article (by prominent Turkish Islamic scholar Yasar Nuri Ozturk). He says only 17 hadiths were accepted as authentic by Abu Hanifa, a.k.a imam-e-azam. This deserves a separate thread IMHO.
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quote author=Wakas link=topic=9598888.msg218439#msg218439 date=1251323938]
Baseless assumption. Once again, shows you cannot prove the "hikma" discussed in The Quran is the Traditional Hadith.What else you got?
As I said, hikma/wisdom/judgement is not exclusive to The Quran. I shall leave you with such a wisdom
When reason is against a man, the man will soon be against reason - Hume
Thanks for pointing out that hikma/wisdom.. is not exclusive to the quran, you know what, God himself has explained that he provided Muhamed wisdom in addition to the Quran to deliver to the people. If you agree this far, we are done. Hadith are recordings or collections of what he said. This man that has been provided hikma from God but you reject his sayings? or are you denying that he recieved hikma from God other than the Quran?
THere are far too many ayats in the Quran that state the Quran and hikma separately, offcourse the Quran has hikma, and as one person earlier stated the Quran can be called the hikma but as you have stated yourself and others in this forum, there is other hikma which is why Allah states that muhamad instructed in the book and the hikma
"a Messenger of their own , who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'an) and Al-hikmah""reciting to you Our Verses (the Qur'an) and purifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Qur'an) and the hikmah "
Reasoning without patience is dangerous as i have provided my own favorite saying below, why. because as a human you have limited scope and resources to uncover truths, in patiently you can make hasty decision based on available evidence as are done every day in hospitals, courtrooms and academia that are later disproven because one or two factors were overlooked. One great thinker from the past (socrates) stated to his students, after decades of learning and teaching, 'there is one thing that i know for sure, is that i know nothing' this is a true hikma.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing-Pope
I dedicate this to all those who feal more or as competent/knowledgeable or having hikmah as the prophet God himself has appointed to do the work of explaining his book.Salaamun Alaykum
The Quran is also called Ash-Shifaa (1782) .. where is this Shifaa? Do we recite some hadiths to get our health back?
The Quran is also called Az-Zikraa many times... where is this Zikraa(rememberance)? Do we recite some hadiths to remind us of Allah?
The Quran is also called Haq(362)... Where is this Haq(truth)? We know hadiths is full of false reports...Sorry but your point does not stand... If you take hikmah to mean hadiths... then you SHOULD take all the other names/attributes of the Quran to mean to hadiths as well.... Why would you act unjustly towards the other names/attributes of this Quran?
What you fail to realize... You sunnis, everytime I talk to you guys, you use the same outdated and illogical discourse with me... that following the Quran alone is a new age religion... Why do you say stuff which you yourself does not know... were you a witness? The Messenger and his companions were only following the Quran... And the idea of following the Quran alone is also present in hadiths... but portrayed in a negative way of course because hadith writers had no reason to put a hadith in their book which says we should be following the Quran alone...
I remember one of the talks of Br.Ahmed Deedat which I watched a few days ago.. where he says.... Moses on the day of Judgement will deny Judaism, Isa will deny christianity... because it was not the deen which the brought... And of course, Muhammad will deny these hadiths... And will tell... Why has his UMMAH forsaken the Quran which he brought(2530)...
Now what you think regarding these hadiths?
Sahih Bukhary; and Sahih Muslim, both reported that same Hadith
The messenger of God, talking to his companions, said, "On the Day of Judgment, some of my Umma (community) will be taken to the left, and I will say; "to where ?". I will be told "to the Hell fire" I will say; "God, these were my (Sahaba) companions." I will be told that "You do not know what they invented after you. They turn back on their heel since you left them." I will say' " To destruction, destruction to those who changed things after me"
Sahih Bukhary
Al-Aala Ibn Al Musayeb said his father said, "I met Al Baraa Ibn Azib and told him, "Good for you that you accompanied the Prophet and declared allegiance to him under the tree." He said, "Listen, the son of my brother, You do not know what we invented after him."
Sahih Muslim
Huthyfa said the Prophet said, " Among my companions twelve hypocrites, of these, eight will not enter paradise until the camel pass through the eye of a needle."
Bukhary
Saeed Ibn Al Musayeb said his father said, the Prophet said, "Some of my companions (Sahaba) will go to a river in Paradise, but they will be taken away, so I will call on God, "My companions (Sahaba)," but I will be told, "You do not know what they did after you. They turned back on their heel"
The same Hadith was given few more times with different narrators.
While these hadiths DO NOTHING to prove that the words of God in the Quran are correct, the sects who cherish hadiths more than the word of God would be looking for them. It is interesting that they will never learn from it as God will block them from knowing the truth since they rejected the words of the Quran to start with. We are only listring them to give them no excuse, using their own language.
You also said somewhere that we need to look for qualifications... you are more interested in papers and clergy that real words directly from the Quran... But you know what.. Muhammad did not come to his people with any qualifications at all.. Those who chose to believe, believed him and did not ask for qualifications... But as for those who kept denying... they kept accussing the messenger of forgery... Check out this verse please where Muhammad is saying that he came with nothing... He has nothing to back his words except what was being revealed to him... Muhammad came to them empty handed... he was neither a monk, nor an angel.
Say, "I DO NOT say to you that I possess the treasures of GOD. NOR DO I KNOW THE FUTURE. NOR do I say to you that I am an angel. I simply FOLLOW WHAT IS REVEALED TO ME (The Holy Qu'ran) ." Say, "Is the blind the same as the seer? Do you not reflect?" - The Holy Qu'ran ~ Livestock ~ 650
You guys you seem to be so sure about history... You talk as if you witnessed them and all those events unrolled before your eyes... But what you again fail to realise is, history will always be doubtful and only Allah know the truth about it as HE IS A WITNESS ... This verse establishes the FACTS regarding the unreliability of history and hearsay/reports of the people.
Some would say, "They were three; their dog being the fourth," while others would say, "Five; the sixth being their dog," as they guessed. Others said, "Seven," and the eighth was their dog. Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. Therefore, do not argue with them; just go along with them. You need not consult anyone about this. The Holy Qu'ran ~ The Cave ~ 1822
I wish to hear back.
Wassalaam
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I'm not sure what you mean here, I read this in an article (by prominent Turkish Islamic scholar Yasar Nuri Ozturk). He says only 17 hadiths were accepted as authentic by Abu Hanifa, a.k.a imam-e-azam. This deserves a separate thread IMHO.
So why not start one, i'll tell you what i mean there.
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peace hope4, all,
I gave my take on "hikma" here if interested
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.msg135168#msg135168Wakas No one I dont think from any of the islamic sect is denying that hikma is in the Quran, its the words of Allah, the hadith confirm this by going above and beyong your understanding that the knowledge in the Quran is deep to the extent that writing it would require more ink than the volume of water in the ocean or something to this effect (again rough translation not exact quote, then again you guys can take this and run with it saying all hadiths are not accurate)
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Salaamun Alaykum
I wish to hear back.
Wassalaam
I have a long weekend, i may not get back to you but inshallah I look forward to discussing your post as soon as I get a chance.
Please take the poll i have posted to see where Quran onliers stand with regards to hadith (i tried to capture as much of the variant positions as possible). -
I have no problem with hadiths that don't contradict the Qur'an.
From appendix 19 of Quran The Final Testament
Which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? 456
The Quran is not fabricated Hadith; ...It details everything. 12111
Some people uphold vain Hadith to divert others from the path of God 316
The Only Sunna to follow shall be God's Sunna
The Quran informs us that some enemies of the Prophet, described as"human and jinn devils," will fabricate lies and attribute them to the Prophet (6112, 2531).This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations because they defy the divine assertions that the Quran is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and shall be the only source of religious guidance (619, 638, 6114 & 456-7), blaspheme against the Prophet and depict him as a vicious tyrant who did not uphold the Quran, and create false doctrines based on superstition, ignorance, and indefensible nonsensical traditions. The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (6938-4.
Some Muslims compromise "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is"complete, perfect and fully detailed." The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 631). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (1857).
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From appendix 19 of Quran The Final Testament
Which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe? 456
The Quran is not fabricated Hadith; ...It details everything. 12111
Some people uphold vain Hadith to divert others from the path of God 316
The Only Sunna to follow shall be God's Sunna
The Quran informs us that some enemies of the Prophet, described as"human and jinn devils," will fabricate lies and attribute them to the Prophet (6112, 2531).This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations because they defy the divine assertions that the Quran is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and shall be the only source of religious guidance (619, 638, 6114 & 456-7), blaspheme against the Prophet and depict him as a vicious tyrant who did not uphold the Quran, and create false doctrines based on superstition, ignorance, and indefensible nonsensical traditions. The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (6938-4.
Some Muslims compromise "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is"complete, perfect and fully detailed." The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 631). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (1857).
I don't wanna turn this into an RK thread, nor am I trying to bash him, but he's not being consistent.
RK didn't follow his own advice when he based his understanding of 9/128-29 from the hadeeth. Also, hadeeth quranically means a story/tale/narration/fact etc...
When the quran uses the word 'hadeeth' It's not strictly talking about the hadeeth of muhammad, but all hadeeth/stories.
Look at 20/9 for example,
"The hadeeth/story of Moosa", definitely not used in a negative light. As his hadeeth/story is mentioned throughout.
And 4/140,
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Book, that if you hear the signs/ayats of God being rejected and mocked, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different story/hadeeth; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.
Rejecting all 'hadeeth' is an impossibility. This would mean we can't read/hear a single story.
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I don't wanna turn this into an RK thread, nor am I trying to bash him, but he's not being consistent.
RK didn't follow his own advice when he based his understanding of 9/128-29 from the hadeeth. Also, hadeeth quranically means a story/tale/narration/fact etc...
When the quran uses the word 'hadeeth' It's not strictly talking about the hadeeth of muhammad, but all hadeeth/stories.
Look at 20/9 for example,
"The hadeeth/story of Moosa", definitely not used in a negative light. As his hadeeth/story is mentioned throughout.
And 4/140,
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Book, that if you hear the signs/ayats of God being rejected and mocked, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different story/hadeeth; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.
Rejecting all 'hadeeth' is an impossibility. This would mean we can't read/hear a single story.
Another example of your amazing way of thinking. Why are you always so nitpicky? How do you know that RK meant only the Hadiths that are attributed to Muhammad? You should inform yourself before making such comments as you have done above. RK condemned following anything beside the Quran as the source of one's religion (Islam).
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Peace
I have a question for the forum hope you can help. I have a translation of the Quran in Turkish, which divides the Quran into 30 sections called 'Cuz' pronounced 'jooz'. It also has references to sura and ayet numbers. I have been told by members of my family that when you read the Quran you must read a whole Cuz (section) at a time as this is the way. What sect does this come from? Has anyone heard of the Quran being divided into 30 Cuz? Can anyone please explain more? I think my turkish brothers and sisters will probably be more helpful here as this seems to be widely accepted by the turks. Thank you in advance for your help.
God bless
Hope
