WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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SALAAMUN TO ALL
MODERATORS Please do not send to JINN Section, thanks.
2533 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best the explanation.
75.19 Again on Us is the explaining of it.
I like to start out with these two ayats, just to put into people's mind that, Al-Qur'an, is not a book on Philosophical Relativism, that is, it decides the questions/arguements which are brought to it.
On the recent thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...it became abundantly clear that Iblis, was not one of the malaika. Now, the question becomes, what was he? Was he a fire creature, a homo sapien sapien, a hot wind, an extraterrestrial being, what? It is my opinion that Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien, as were all of the JINN.
The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an". The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.
The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .
1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban
1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.
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Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin
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They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!
726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqan
- 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.
24 37 Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratun wala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi waiqami alssalati waeetai alzzakati yakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waalabsaru
2437 By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of Allah, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new),-
9108 La taqum feehi abadan lamasjidun ossisa AAala alttaqwa min awwali yawmin ahaqqu an taqooma feehi feehi rijalun yuhibboona an yatatahharoo waAllahu yuhibbu almuttahhireena
9108 Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
4631 Ya qawmana ajeeboo daAAiya Allahi waaminoo bihi yaghfir lakum min thunoobikum wayujirkum min AAathabin aleemin
4631 O people of our nation, embrace the invitation of the one who is inviting towards All?h and bring Faith in him, All?h will forgive you your sins and will save you from painful torment?.
511 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith hamma qawmun an yabsutoo ilaykum aydiyahum fakaffa aydiyahum AAankum waittaqoo Allaha waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almuminoona
511 O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.
Main Entry OFFSPRING the progeny of an animal or plant 1850
Main Entry PROGENY DESCENDANTS, CHILDREN b offspring of animals or plants a body of followers, disciples, or successors
Main Entry CHILD/CHILDREN an unborn or recently born person a young person especially between infancy and youth b a son or daughter of human parents b DESCENDANT
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Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
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He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"
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((Allah)) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.
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"Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.
2355 Do they think that by what We aid them with of wealth and children.
Main Entry ID the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives --
2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?
Main Entry PASSION emotion <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural the emotions as distinguished from reason b intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c an outbreak of anger means intense emotion compelling action applies to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable .
Main Entry FIRE the phenomenon of combustion manifested in light, flame, and heat burning passion ARDOR (2) liveliness of imagination INSPIRATION.
For me, then, "fire free of smoke", is a metaphor for undisciplined human passion. Was Iblis not wroth with Allah and Adam? Did he not check/discipline himself emotionally?
Given the above evidence, I think I've made the case that, Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien. We definitely know that Iblis, doesn't fit the description of an angel, but, does appear to be a homo sapien sapien in every respect.
What are you thoughts?
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PEACE Vencentia and YD
It seems Dhul failed to consider this fact when he formulated his latest theory. It will be interesting to see what his next modified version of HIS THEORY will look like. Unless he wants to keep with his current theory and contradict many verses in the quran.
I cannot speak for dhul , but I too believe Al-Shaitan, the title of Iblis, was human. Of course being human, Shaitan, died many many centuries ago, however, and, once again, I must agree with dhul that, Shaitan/Satan, as the term is being used since the death of Iblis, is referring to a philosophy/mindset/"spirit" and not some kind of spooky/etherial sentient being flying around with hordes of demons possessing people and causing havoc. For example, Martin Luther King, the civil rights champion is long dead, however, his spirit, i.e., his philosophy of non-violence and brotherhood. What Iblis, began many centuries ago continues to be with us today...the philosphy/spirit of rebellion and non-restraint.
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PEACE YD and ALL
There is a separate entity for the communitites of Jinns and that of men. Wow I am impress what an eye can do for me I can start quoting my arguments now. Gosh its amazing.
"The Gentiles are the Non-Jews, a name given by the Hebrews to all those who had not received the law of Moses...Hebrew Goyim signified the nations, the surrounding nations, foreigners, as opposed to Israel. A Goy was a foreign nation; hence a Gentile."
http//www.latter-rain.com/Israel/gentile.htm
"The jinn mentioned in the Holy Quran are certainly not the genii of fairy tales or what people usually imagine them to be. This word indicates "something hidden from view", and is used in the Quran with several different meanings referring to people or beings who are remote and not seen. It is applied to leaders, as contrasted with the ordinary public, and to people of foreign lands. For instance, the Quran says
"O assembly of jinn and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you. . ." (6131).
As messengers from God only came to human beings, the jinn here are also humans, and the address "jinn and men" is to the leaders and the ordinary people. Similarly, the Quran twice mentions some jinn as accepting its teachings (4629; 721). In the first case, a tribe of Jews is meant, and in the second some Christians are meant, being called jinn because of their remoteness".
http//www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/zahidaziz/introductionislam/appendixjinn.shtml
From the above two passages, it is interesting how similar in both sound and meaning Jinn and Gentile are. It appears then that, Jinn and men, while both being human beings, do represent different communities, relative, to whether or not they a Law from Allah. The Last Messenger, as spoken of in ayat 7157, appears to have been of the Jinn himself
- Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel. He enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and prohibits for them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were on them. So those who believe in him and honour him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him ? these are the successful.
"Some have, however, argued that ummi and "unlettered" should not be taken to mean illiterate, but rather scriptureless. This would mean that when Muhammad is described as ummi, it means that he is not one of the Jews (a people "of the Book") or simply that he is not a member of a group which has yet received a revelation from God - at least, not until he received the Qur'an. Such a translation seems more likely to many because Muhammad is also described as having been a merchant, and it is unlikely that a completely illiterate person could have functioned as a merchant".
http//atheism.about.com/library/glossary/islam/bldef_ummi.htm
Another interesting article on the JINN
http//tariq.bitshop.com/simplyIslam/jinn.htm
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PB,
I cannot speak for dhul though I think he is totally correct on this matter], but I too believe Al-Shaitan, the title of Iblis, was human. Of course being human, Shaitan, died many many centuries ago, however, and, once again, I must agree with dhul that, Shaitan/Satan,
This may sound spooky to some. lol
055.050
YUSUFALI In them (each) will be two Springs flowing (free);
PICKTHAL Wherein are two fountains flowing.
SHAKIR In both of them are two fountains flowing.
KHALIFA Two springs are in them, flowing.055.051
YUSUFALI Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
PICKTHAL Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
KHALIFA Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?055.052
YUSUFALI In them will be Fruits of every kind, two and two.
PICKTHAL Wherein is every kind of fruit in pairs.
SHAKIR In both of them are two pairs of every fruit.
KHALIFA Of every fruit in them, two kinds.This Sura ,I understand it to mean 2 different characteristics.The reward of hereafter are also in pairs for the two of them,including two gardens.Any elaboration on this?
One more question are the verses that deals with people of the scripture include the Arabs now that they are no longer UMMI's.My race did not get the book yet.
cheers.
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PEACE YD
One more question are the verses that deals with people of the scripture include the Arabs now that they are no longer UMMI's.My race did not get the book yet.
Good question, but it would seem so.
Btw, what race are you?
Are you Muslim?
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PEACE TO ALL
I've concluded, anyway, that, Iblis was of the Jinn and not the Malaika and would now like to explore what he and the Jinn actually are. I agree in total with the arguement set forth by Dhulqarnain
2533 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best the explanation.
75.19 Again on Us is the explaining of it.
I like to start out with these two ayats, just to put into people's mind that, Al-Qur'an, is not a book on Philosophical Relativism, that is, it decides the questions/arguements which are brought to it.
On the recent thread...WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...it became abundantly clear that Iblis, was not one of the malaika. Now, the question becomes, what was he? Was he a fire creature, a homo sapien sapien, a hot wind, an extraterrestrial being, what? It is my opinion that Iblis, was a homo sapien sapien, as were all of the JINN.
The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an". The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.
The following ayats describe both Jinn and men as people .
1815 Haolai qawmuna ittakhathoo min doonihi alihatan lawla yatoona AAalayhim bisultanin bayyinin faman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban
1815 "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah.
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Qaloo ya qawmana inna samiAAna kitaban onzila min baAAdi moosa musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi yahdee ila alhaqqi wa-ila tareeqin mustaqeemin
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They said, "O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it it guides to the Truth and to a Straight Path.
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened. They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!
726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqan
- 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths.
24 37 Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratun wala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi waiqami alssalati waeetai alzzakati yakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waalabsaru
2437 By men whom neither traffic nor merchandise can divert from the Remembrance of Allah, nor from regular Prayer, nor from the practice of regular Charity Their (only) fear is for the Day when hearts and eyes will be transformed (in a world wholly new),-
9108 La taqum feehi abadan lamasjidun ossisa AAala alttaqwa min awwali yawmin ahaqqu an taqooma feehi feehi rijalun yuhibboona an yatatahharoo waAllahu yuhibbu almuttahhireena
9108 Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
4631 Ya qawmana ajeeboo daAAiya Allahi waaminoo bihi yaghfir lakum min thunoobikum wayujirkum min AAathabin aleemin
4631 O people of our nation, embrace the invitation of the one who is inviting towards All?h and bring Faith in him, All?h will forgive you your sins and will save you from painful torment.
511 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo othkuroo niAAmata Allahi AAalaykum ith hamma qawmun an yabsutoo ilaykum aydiyahum fakaffa aydiyahum AAankum waittaqoo Allaha waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almuminoona
511 O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.
Main Entry OFFSPRING the progeny of an animal or plant 1850
Main Entry PROGENY DESCENDANTS, CHILDREN b offspring of animals or plants a body of followers, disciples, or successors
Main Entry CHILD/CHILDREN an unborn or recently born person a young person especially between infancy and youth b a son or daughter of human parents b DESCENDANT
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Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
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He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"
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((Allah)) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.
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"Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.
2355 Do they think that by what We aid them with of wealth and children.
Main Entry ID the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives --
2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?
Main Entry PASSION emotion <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural the emotions as distinguished from reason b intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c an outbreak of anger means intense emotion compelling action applies to an emotion that is deeply stirring or ungovernable .
Main Entry FIRE the phenomenon of combustion manifested in light, flame, and heat burning passion ARDOR (2) liveliness of imagination INSPIRATION.
For me, then, "fire free of smoke", is a metaphor for undisciplined human passion. Was Iblis not wroth with Allah and Adam? Did he not check/discipline himself emotionally?
Another important aspect in all of this ayat 2185 and 1795.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men...
1795 Say Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an messenger.
Both of these ayats make it clear, or appears to anyway that, Al-Quran and messengers were sent to homo sapien sapiens, hence, if the Jinn weren't homo sapien sapiens as well, then, the above ayats wouldn't make sense.
In addition
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a GUIDANCE to MEN
5156 And I have not created the JINN and the men except that they should serve Me.
Main Entry SERVE to comply with the commands or demands of.
Main Entry SERVANT one that serves others one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer.
Allah, is served when His commands/laws/guidance are followed. Allahs commands/laws/guidance are contained in His Quran. Hence, if Jinn are to serve Allah, where then, do they derive their guidance as to how to serve Allah, given the fact that, Al-Quran, was sent for the guidance of men?
Given that, Allah sent Al-Quran as guidance to men, in order that man may serve Him, then, the Jinn, likewise, must be human beings as well, because Al-Quran and its guidance wasnt sent to any other creature other than man .
6128 And on the day when He shall gather them all together O assembly of Jinn! you took away a great part of mankind. And their friends from among the men shall say Our Lord! some of us profited by others and we have reached our appointed term which Thou didst appoint for us. He shall say The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.
6129 the iniquitous to befriend others on account of what they earned.
6130 O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you Messengers from among you, relating to you My ayats and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.
5533 O assembly of the jinn and the men!
Main Entry ASSEMBLY a company of persons gathered for deliberation and legislation, worship, or entertainment.
If the Jinn, were other than human beings, then how could they and human beings assemble? Where, in the recorded history of human beings, do we find men assembling with beings other than other men?
QAUMUN people, nation, group.
RIJALUN man male human being.
The Gentiles are the Non-Jews, a name given by the Hebrews to all those who had not received the law of Moses...Hebrew Goyim signified the nations, the surrounding nations, foreigners, as opposed to Israel. A Goy was a foreign nation; hence a Gentile."
http//www.latter-rain.com/Israel/gentile.htm
"The jinn mentioned in the Holy Quran are certainly not the genii of fairy tales or what people usually imagine them to be. This word indicates "something hidden from view", and is used in the Quran with several different meanings referring to people or beings who are remote and not seen. It is applied to leaders, as contrasted with the ordinary public, and to people of foreign lands. For instance, the Quran says
"O assembly of jinn and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you. . ." (6131).
As messengers from God only came to human beings, the jinn here are also humans, and the address "jinn and men" is to the leaders and the ordinary people. Similarly, the Quran twice mentions some jinn as accepting its teachings (4629; 721). In the first case, a tribe of Jews is meant, and in the second some Christians are meant, being called jinn because of their remoteness".
http//www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/zahidaziz/introductionislam/appendixjinn.shtml
From the above two passages, it is interesting how similar in both sound and meaning Jinn and Gentile are. It appears then that, Jinn and men, while both being human beings, do represent different communities, relative, to whether or not they a Law from Allah. The Last Messenger, as spoken of in ayat 7157, appears to have been of the Jinn himself
- Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel. He enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and prohibits for them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were on them. So those who believe in him and honour him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him these are the successful.
"Some have, however, argued that ummi and "unlettered" should not be taken to mean illiterate, but rather scriptureless. This would mean that when Muhammad is described as ummi, it means that he is not one of the Jews (a people "of the Book") or simply that he is not a member of a group which has yet received a revelation from God - at least, not until he received the Qur'an. Such a translation seems more likely to many because Muhammad is also described as having been a merchant, and it is unlikely that a completely illiterate person could have functioned as a merchant".
http//atheism.about.com/library/glossary/islam/bldef_ummi.htm
Another interesting article on the JINN
http//tariq.bitshop.com/simplyIslam/jinn.htm
What are you thoughts?
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Peace be upon you,
Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN
(7211) 'And that we from us (are) the correct/righteous, and from us (are) other than that...
So are ther fiery humans who don't live by a codified law from the God who are both righteous and wicked?
If the JINN, were made of fire, they would not be invisible, but highly visible and readly felt.
Would you burn yourself if you touched them?
If the JINN, were made of fire, they would have to give off smoke, because fire in this world, where they lived/live, does not burn without giving off waste/smoke.
Do the Humans who are made of clay and water leave puddles wherever they go? Can you twist your "clay" head all the way around like playdough?
If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).
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PEACE IDOL
Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN.
(7211) 'And that we from us (are) the correct/righteous, and from us (are) other than that...
So are ther fiery humans who don't live by a codified law from the God who are both righteous and wicked?
Would you please re-phrase your sentance, it doesn't quite make sense to me, thanks.
If the JINN, were made of fire, they would not be invisible, but highly visible and readly felt.
Would you burn yourself if you touched them?
Certainly, if they are, in fact, as some believe, made of fire.
If the JINN, were made of fire, they would have to give off smoke, because fire in this world, where they lived/live, does not burn without giving off waste/smoke.
Do the Humans who are made of clay and water leave puddles wherever they go? Can you twist your "clay" head all the way around like playdough?
Exactly my point. "Fire" and "clay" are obviously metaphors for human mindsets/dispositions. Fire, as with clay, must be referring to a human being, especially, given that, fire is not literal in regard to the Jinn. So if "clay" is a metaphor for human being, then, likewise, it follows that "fire" is a metaphor for human beings.
If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).
So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
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Peace be upon you PB,
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So are ther fiery humans who don't live by a codified law from the God who are both righteous and wicked?Would you please re-phrase your sentance, it doesn't quite make sense to me, thanks.
Certainly, you have stated your definition of "jinn". Yu stated that they are humans who have a fiery disposition and don't live by a codified law from the God. But 7211 states that jinn are both righteous and wicked, can you explain how that statement fits in your line of reasoning?
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Would you burn yourself if you touched them?Certainly, if they are, in fact, as some believe, made of fire.
Do you believe that? That there are beings who will burn your skin if you touch them because they are made of fire?
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Do the Humans who are made of clay and water leave puddles wherever they go? Can you twist your "clay" head all the way around like playdough?Exactly my point. "Fire" and "clay" are obviously metaphors for human mindsets/dispositions.
I agree
Fire, as with clay, must be referring to a human being, especially, given that, fire is not literal in regard to the Jinn. So if "clay" is a metaphor for human being, then, likewise, it follows that "fire" is a metaphor for human beings.
I agree. And lets not forget about "water" which is likened to revelation. Water will put out the fire and water causes the clay to CHANGE its form.
If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
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By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".
Nothing in life is really seperate from anything else, it is the illusion of this world that makes things seem seperate. But in order to study , we have to seperate the WHOLE into parts, in order to understand, then we put it all back together. So the "jinn/thoughts" are not part of "YOU" because yo can sit back and "control" them if you choose to do, so they are seperate, but when the WHOLE is considered, nothing is seperate.
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PEACE IDOL
Certainly, you have stated your definition of "jinn". Yu stated that they are humans who have a fiery disposition and don't live by a codified law from the God. But 7211 states that jinn are both righteous and wicked, can you explain how that statement fits in your line of reasoning?
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.
PB Exactly my point. "Fire" and "clay" are obviously metaphors for human mindsets/dispositions.
I agree
Good deal.
PB Fire, as with clay, must be referring to a human being, especially, given that, fire is not literal in regard to the Jinn. So if "clay" is a metaphor for human being, then, likewise, it follows that "fire" is a metaphor for human beings.
I agree. And lets not forget about "water" which is likened to revelation. Water will put out the fire and water causes the clay to CHANGE its form.
Yes, I agree.
PB If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).
I'm not sure what you mean here.
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".
Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
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Peace be upon you brother PB,
Regarding 7211
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?
Also, this reading(quran) states that no matter what TITLE you give yourself, if you have faith inthe God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
I ommitted the parts we agree on***
PB If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
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By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).I'm not sure what you mean here.
When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
Quote
No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.
They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
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PEACE IDOL
Regarding 7211
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?
I think that much of unrighteousness is due to to misinformation, hence, as with the Christiandom, while they certainly behave righteously at times, their entire belief system is the epitome of unrighteousness.
Also, by example, when I think of Jinn, the American Indian comes to mind, in that, they had knowledge of the One God/Great Spirit in the Sky, however, they had no codified law/scripture from Allah that I know of. Hence, while being fiery they still lived by a rudimnetary moral code. Do you see my point?
When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.
Well, here, anyway, you appear to be defining Jinn as corporeal/human beings, am I correct in this assumption?
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
IDOL No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".
PB Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts" 1. emanate from the human brain? OR 2. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings
I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.
They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
You are beginning to muddy the waters/confuse the issue again with the bringing in of malaika and shaitans. Leave those things out of this. If you need to discuss the malaika, then, by all means, re-open the discussion on the "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" thread and I will be happy to discuss it. However, for now, I simply want you to choose between these two ideas
Yes, but are you saying these JINN "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
-
Peace be upon you PB,
Quote
I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?I think that much of unrighteousness is due to to misinformation, hence, as with the Christiandom, while they certainly behave righteously at times, their entire belief system is the epitome of unrighteousness.
Also, by example, when I think of Jinn, the American Indian comes to mind, in that, they had knowledge of the One God/Great Spirit in the Sky, however, they had no codified law/scripture from Allah that I know of. Hence, while being fiery they still lived by a rudimnetary moral code. Do you see my point?
Respectfully I do not, please elaborate. Keep inmind that the God says ANYONE who has faith in the God (many christians do), has faith in the ending time(many christains do), and live righteous will have thier reward(many christains do). So what is missing? Regarding jinn, I was completely lost by the example of the Indian, please elaborate.
Quote
When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.Well, here, anyway, you appear to be defining Jinn as corporeal/human beings, am I correct in this assumption?
No, I consistently am speaking of jinn as being thoughts/emotions in the unseen world within. The God is our protector, he send malaika to guide us, and then in turn we are to use emotions(energy in motion) to manifest "heaven on earth". But most peole have it backwards, they take the jinn as protectors and allow thier emotions (since they are now in the ruling position) todirect them, and that is failure.
Quote
I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
You are beginning to muddy the waters/confuse the issue again with the bringing in of malaika and shaitans. Leave those things out of this.
I cannot do that.
If you need to discuss the malaika, then, by all means, re-open the discussion on the "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" thread and I will be happy to discuss it. However, for now, I simply want you to choose between these two ideas
Yes, but are you saying these JINN "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
The righteous thoughts emanate from the God, they are meant to guide us, control our paths, just as they did when we were a seed, then a leech like clot, etc. But as we grow , the illusory life of this world starts to wear on us and we start to see things as being seperate. That is when our MINDS start to create rejecting thoughts that oppose the righteous thoughts of ONENESS and try to bring about further seperation (races/religion/gender).
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PEACE IDOL
Do this, because I don't know what you are talking yet. Of the two positions listed below, which one, A or B, best represents your position? For now, just post A or B, thanks.
These JINN "thoughts", do they
A. emanate from the human brain?
OR
B. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
-
PEACE IDOL
I'm still waiting for your reply to this question; important that you respond, thanks.
Do this, because I don't know what you are talking yet. Of the two positions listed below, which one, A or B, best represents your position? For now, just post A or B, thanks.
These JINN "thoughts", do they
A. emanate from the human brain?
OR
B. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
-
Peace be upon you,
My answer would be "B", because the righteus thoughts emanate from the God, the unrighteous thoughts are products of the Mind(nafs) that has developed an ego and sees itself as seperate.
Also, keep in mind that when I say MIND, I am not talking about the Human brain.
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The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an". The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.
Salam PB,
Could you quote the lexicons where you found that jinn can mean "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah" ?
Thanks
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Peace be upon you,
My answer would be "B", because the righteus thoughts emanate from the God, the unrighteous thoughts are products of the Mind(nafs) that has developed an ego and sees itself as seperate. Also, keep in mind that when I say MIND, I am not talking about the Human brain.
Then, for you, the Jinn are not living beings, but unrighteous thoughts which emanate from MIND, but this "mind" is not human. This mind, then, exists independently of both Allah and humans, is this correct? Yes or No?
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PEACE TO ALL
In my continuing efforts to despook/demystify the Jinn, as anything but human beings, I think the following supports this effort.
SERVICE
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a GUIDANCE to MEN
5156 And I have not created the JINN and the men except that they should serve Me.Main Entry SERVE to comply with the commands or demands of.
Main Entry SERVANT one that serves others one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer.
Allah, is served when His commands/laws/guidance are followed. Allahs commands/laws/guidance are contained in His Quran. Hence, if Jinn are to serve Allah, where then, do they derive their guidance as to how to serve Allah, given the fact that, Al-Quran, was sent for the guidance of men?
Given that, Allah sent guidance to men, in order that man may serve Him, then, the Jinn, likewise, must be human beings as well, because Al-Quran/guidance wasnt sent to any other creature . other than man
The following terms are alos associated with the Jinn
QAUMUN people, nation, group.
RIJALUN man male human being.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Then, for you, the Jinn are not living beings, but unrighteous thoughts which emanate from MIND, but this "mind" is not human. This mind, then, exists independently of both Allah and humans, is this correct? Yes or No?
The "mind' is part of the true self, as well as the "ruh" that the God blew into us. The "ruh" brings us the malaiaka, the mind , when corrupted, bring us the shaytaan.
(917-10) tell us that those who purifythe mind succeed and those that corrupt it fail