WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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PEACE SOMEONE
Let me join the others in praising Allah for your baby and happiness! and...may they be many more to follow D.
"ins" comes from the root/verb "anessa" which translates as "be friendly , be sociable". "jinn" comes from the root/verb "janna" which translates as "envelop , enshroud , cover , curtain , cloak , conceal , blind , cache , screen , hide".
Yes, I have read the same thing about "ins" and "jinn", however, some of the other definitions for Janna are, to be mad with joy or anger; madness, diabolical fury, and passion. The term "nar/fire" , similar to the above definitions, can mean irritate, vex, provoke, war. These definitions, like the definitions of "ins", suggest a social psychology/mindset of homo sapien sapiens.
I'm not convinced of the introvert vs extrovert theory at this time.
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PEACE MARIE
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
This position cannot be supported by Quran. Quran, at 1850, defines Iblis one if the Jinn and not of the malaika
1850 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
1850 Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa liththalimeena badala
To refer to Iblis as being other than a Jinn, is to not take Allah's statement/ayat seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
***Indirectly because the prophet Mohammad received this Reading through Gabriel (297-98 ) ***
Your position does not hold water, because Allah makes it clear that He chooses only rajalun and malaika as messengers and, that to Jinn and men, came messengers. To proffer that an angel lead the Jinns would not be consistent with Allah stating that, had angels inhabited the earth, He would have sent an angel as a Messenger. Indeed, the Jinn could say to Allah that, "how can we follow an angel when we are Jinn, how can we be held to the standard of an angel, we are Jinn?". No, if an angel went to the Jinns, it would have been to bring Allah's Message to a particular, who, then, would deliver it to his people. In addition, we know of no angel leading men, although, angels have been used to carry the wahy.
I'm sorry, Marie, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey with the ayats you presented. Perhaps you could explain how you were using them relative to our discussion.
Only the God knows How they helped Solomon.
And He has told us in His Quran, how the Jinn were able Solomon.
2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to you but We reveal to you the truth and the best explanation (thereof).
The above ayat tells us that Allah, has answered our question as to who the Jinn are...homo sapien sapiens. The following is what history says about Solomon and his builders, and is consistent with all of the accounts about how he came to build his many edifices
"King Hiram was friendly to Solomon and sent him workers to help build the temple, and cedar wood. How would they carry the great logs so far from Mount Lebanon to Jerusalem? Hiram's servants took them down to the sea and made them into rafts and floated them down to Joppa. You must take your map and follow along the coast and see how they went. At Joppa they drew the logs ashore and Solomon's servants carried them up to Jerusalem.
There were a great many people at work. Besides Hiram's servants, there were many more whom Solomon gathered from the different tribes and from the native people of the land. So the timber was brought for the building. The stone was got in quarries near by, and it was cut to the right size and shape in the quarry, so that there was no tool of iron heard upon the stone while the temple was building."
http//64.233.187.104/search?q=cacheyThUlZIvSDkJwww.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/sower/jj12/1king51.htm+who+helped+Solomon+build+the+Temple&hl=en
I've found no historical account remotely suggesting that, "fiery invisible beings" helping to build his projects. It defies human intelligence to think that, fiery beings, could dive in the water for pearls and coral. Think of it, wouldn't history have recorded it if "invisible beings" were moving things around? Just imagine huge rocks floating by and nothing moving them? What an event!
I can ask the same question for the hoopoe...
I hope to address this later.
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Or maybe Jinn just means two different things.
From Ahmed Ali's translation of the Quran.
Jinn means to hide, used both for invisble forces and beings , as in 26210 and 37158, and nomadic tribes as in 6130. Ins is also used for settled tribes, as in 260.
Words having more than one meaning, like naml, hud-hud, and tair have been used metonymically to stand for something quite different from what they generally mean... Naml, for instance, means ants, but was also the name of a tribe in Syria, and Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir identifies namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Ban Shisan. Similarly, hud hud means hoopoe, but was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tibes as well as birds. Tair is commonly used for birds, but is also applied to winged beings, yet tayyar means fleet-footed horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching impetuously to jihad. When King Solomon says that they had been taught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for human speech, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds being called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn, cannot be disregarded, and is further discusseed in the note on p.386, the Surah Sad, like Sheba, Surah 34, being largely parabolical in style and narration. Knowledge of language of tair implies that Tair were a conquered tribe or race and David and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Similarly jinns implies nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by king of Tyre for Solomon( Bible, Kings 1,5). If take as 'knowledge of language of birds,' it would belong to the realm of 'Faerie.' But the Quran is speaking metonymically, using the name of one thing for another related to it. The role of Hud-hud in this Surah (27) is significant, and could not have been performed by a bird. In fact, it is known that the name of a prince of Midian in the days of King Solomon himself was Hud-hud; and according to Arab traditions the name of the Queen's brother or father was also Hud-hud (See Ard al-Qur'an by Saiyyad Sulaiman Nadvi, Dar al-Musannifin, Azamgarh). It was by the hand of Hud-hud that the letter demanding the Queen's surrender was sent by Solomon; and it was Hud-hud who brought her throne, he alone having possessed knowledge of the letter, which verse 40 of this Surah mentions. At the time, the metaphorical meaning of 'throne'(power, kingship) should be noted, as also the fact of teh Queen's utter confusion on entering the court whose floor seemed a sheet of water to her eyes bewildered by the greatness of Solomon and the splendour of his court.
If Jinn are Humans, then what would you make of the verse that says Jinns are repelled by shooting balls of fire when they try to listen to the Angels? Sorry I don't know the verse number for this so I just paraphrased it.
If Jinn are Men, then how could Iblis have existed before Adam who was the first man?
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IMHO, the jinn are the leaders/notables among humans.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !"ibleesa kana mina aljinni"can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.
Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".
Peace
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
PEACE MARIE
According to my understanding, Iblees is a rebellious angel from Jinn.The messenger amongst Jinn is no more than an angel from Jinn.
This position cannot be supported by Quran. Quran, at 1850, defines Iblis one of the Jinn and not of the malaika
1850 Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
1850 Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa liththalimeena badala
To refer to Iblis as being other than a Jinn, is to not take Allah's statement/ayat seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
I respect you view but I don't share it because you don't consider all the verses about Iblees
- And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay.?
- ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.?
- Thus, all of the Angels submitted.
- Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who submitted.
From the verses above, we can deduce two informations, Iblis exists before Adam and all the Angels submitted except Iblees.
For the moment I keep my position about Iblees which as an angel from Jinn who refused to be with those who submitted.
I cannot continue this discussion.
Thanks for your debate.
Peace
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Dear Marie ,
Peace,
Why not Ibis (originally from Jin) was pretending to be an angle?
You Lord and through our creation willed to reveal his true self among all angels ! "2118 "See the rest of the story in here ?
http//19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=15163&rid=0&S=8fcb06def1fb554d47ba2f0b2c544458#msg_15163
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Peace be upon you all.
"And they ALL prostrated EXCEPT iblis"
It all comes back down to this simple knowledge of a sentence, the subject is "malaika"(controlling forces/faculties within the universe, man included)
The God's command was to the malaika, not anyone/anything else.
To refer to Iblis as being other than a "hidden(jinn) controlling force(malaika)", is to not take The God's statement seriously and that can only lead to non-beneficial conjecturing.
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Salaams,
This is what i think!
From another site
Aristotle took the ability to reason as the characteristic that distinguishes humans from other animals. Modern philosophers, including Descartes, Locke, Leibniz, also regarded the human capacity to reason as qualitatively different from the capacities of nonhuman animals. Descartes thought that animals' inability to reason is demonstrated by their inability to use LANGUAGE and he took this to show that animals are not sentient. However Locke and Leibniz, although they both maintained that animals are incapable of reason, both thought that animal perception is accompanied by some degree of consciousness. Hume thought that much human behavior required a degree of reasoning that could be matched by animals and he seemed to regard the sentience of animals as plainly evident.
1528 using lanes.
Behold! Thy Lord said to the Malaikaat "I am about to create a man, (from) who will speak, of a protective mode of life (law abider);233
He said "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"Basically we where (All) I think Malaikaat before this so obeyed Allah via our Sub-Conscious totally, But on Getting the Conscious we became law abiders ?with our concsious,so the fighters/jinn in this case Ibliss didn?t want to submit to Adam and Law as he found it easier to get what he wants other ways.
Allah's Blessings on us.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
I am not sure I understood the entire post, but I do agree with the relationship of the malaikat to the sub conscious. And I also agree that human being comes from sub conscious to conscious and will return again to subconscious.
Subconscious is just another word for "SPIRIT/SOUL"
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PEACE, Idol, Marie, /JM/, Noor, MZ357 and All
It remains a true mystery to me that, some here will continue to define Iblis as malaika when Allah clearly defines him of those created of a scorching wind--1527 and 1850. To define Iblis as malaika, is to undermine the credibility of Allah's Words. Allah, says that,--if we were to take all of the oceans, double them and turn them into ink and take all of the forests, double them and turn them into pens, we could not exhaust His Words. With this in mind then, why is it so difficult to to accept that Allah knows exactly what He is talking about when He chose the word Jinn to define Iblis? Did Allah err and you, who maintain that Iblis was a malaika, have corrected Him? Nowhere does Allah explicitly/definitively, refer to Iblis as malaika, however, He does explicitly/definitively, refer to him as one of the Jinns. In effect, to define Iblis contrary to how Allah has defined him, is to change Allah's Words.
Anyway, I discussed the following on a previous post and no one has yet put forth a credible response
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from menfor Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
Now, if an angel went to the Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a particular Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to the Jinns and not just angel as a bearer of revelation.
If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they have helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices? An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun . You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.
I want to now pursue the ayats mentioning Solomon and the Jinn
2717 Soloman's troops, made up of jinn and men and birds, were assembled for him, paraded in tight ranks.
The key words, for me at least are
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troops/junooduhu= body of soldiers/troops, collected body of men prepared for war.
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Jinn=people of different far flung countries living detached from other civilized peopled; beings who remain aloof from other people, hence, making them inaccessible to view i.e. powerful people.
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birds/ttayri= cavalry, swift animals, company of men.
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ranks/yoozaAAoona= they were arranged in separate well-disciplined columns.
The ayat begins with defining what Solomon's hosts were--junooduhu, hence, what follows cannot be an aggregate of invisible fiery beings/jinn, human beings, and feathered creatures/birds. This makes no sense at all nor does history support any such fantastic notions.
The idea of "birds" symbolizing men is not new. Alexander Hislop, in his book, The Two Babylons writes
When we look at such figures as those which are here presented to the reader, with their great extent of expanded wing, as symbolising an Assyrian king, what a vividness and force does it give to the inspired language of the prophet! And how clear is it, also, that the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS, that was to "fill the breadth of Immanuel's land," has that very symbolic meaning to which I have referred--viz., the overspreading of the land by his "mighty ones," or hosts of armed men, that the king of Babylon was to bring with him in his overflowing invasion! ...Now, the understanding of this equivocal sense of "Baal-aberin" can alone explain the remarkable statement of Aristophanes, that at the beginning of the world "the birds" were first created, and then after their creation, came the "race of the blessed immortal gods." This has been regarded as either an atheistical or nonsensical utterance on the part of the poet, but, with the true key applied to the language, it is found to contain an important historical fact. Let it only be borne in mind that "the birds"--that is, the "winged ones"--symbolised "the Lords of the mighty ones," and then the meaning is clear, viz., that men first "began to be mighty on the earth"; and then, that the "Lords" or Leaders of "these mighty ones" were deified.
There leaves no doubt that, "birds", can only be referring to Solomon's cavalry of swift moving men, either on foot or horse or both.
Turning to the bible, 1Kings 513-17
Main Entry LEVY the enlistment or conscription of men for military service.
13] And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men.
And he sent them to Lebanon ten thousand a month by courses a month they were in Lebanon, and two months at home and Adoniram was over the levy.
And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;
Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.
And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.
2Chrons. 217-18
Main Entry ALIEN a person of another family, race, or nation
17 Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600.
18 He assigned 70,000 of them to be carriers and 80,000 to be stonecutters in the hills, with 3,600 foremen over them to keep the people working.
The strangers/aliens mentioned in verse 17, describes exactly one of the main definitions of Jinn--people from other lands.
Allah, in Al-Quran states
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And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Once again turning to the bible the following verses support the above ayats
1Kings 513 King Solomon conscripted laborers from all Israel-thirty thousand men. 14 He sent them off to Lebanon in shifts of ten thousand a month, so that they spent one month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the forced labor. 15 Solomon had seventy thousand carriers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hills, 16 as well as thirty-three hundred foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen. 17 At the king's command they removed from the quarry large blocks of quality stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.
1Kings 7 13_15
13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,
14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.
15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17
2Chron. 46 He then made ten basins for washing and placed five on the south side and five on the north. In them the things to be used for the burnt offerings were rinsed, but the Sea was to be used by the priests for washing.
In conclusion, if the Jinn were other than homo sapien sapiens, then why is there no description of these...other than human creatures of fire or invisible fire, to be found in the bible concerning the building of Solomon's temple? Why is there no mention of these...other than human creatures mentioned anywhere in the historical records? On the contrary, the bible accounts are very close to the Quranic accounts concerning Solomon's building projects and no one worked on those projects other than...homo sapien sapiens...Jinn included.
Main Entry GENTILE Pronunciation 'jen-"tIl Etymology Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-,GENS-nation a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew HEATHEN, PAGAN
When I look at the word gentile-GENS , I cannot help but notice how close it resembles JINNS-GENS. Just a coincidence?...I don't think so. What better defines/describes the gentile world/peoples, than...fire free of smoke?
Looking forward to any critical analysis which would contradict these findings.
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Peace be upon you PB and all,
YOur post was long so my response will be long, I ask everyone to be patinet and carefully read this response to see where the errors lie in PB's understanding. I hope that this careful response will put an end to this line of statements.
It remains a true mystery to me that, some here will continue to define Iblis as malaika when Allah clearly defines him of those created of a scorching wind--1527 and 1850. To define Iblis as malaika, is to undermine the credibility of Allah's Words. Allah, says that,--if we were to take all of the oceans, double them and turn them into ink and take all of the forests, double them and turn them into pens, we could not exhaust His Words. With this in mind then, why is it so difficult to to accept that Allah knows exactly what He is talking about when He chose the word Jinn to define Iblis? Did Allah err and you, who maintain that Iblis was a malaika, have corrected Him? Nowhere does Allah explicitly/definitively, refer to Iblis as malaika, however, He does explicitly/definitively, refer to him as one of the Jinns. In effect, to define Iblis contrary to how Allah has defined him, is to change Allah's Words.
Your error is one that is VERY simple, and you will continue to make this error as long as you refrain from TRANSLATING arabic words. The word "jinn" means covered. It is a DESCRIPTIVE WORD which described the condition of the controlling forces properly expressed(malaika) and the perverse forces (shayteen) which are controlling forces that are not properly expressed. These forces are COVERED from sight, just as another verse in this reading uses the root for "jinn" to describe the darkness that covers...
(676) So when the night covered(janna) on him...
So yes, Iblis is DESCRIBED as "jinn" , something covered, because ALL MALAIKA and SHAYTEEN are "jinn"(covered). This is the simple solution to your understanding, and it further does not contradict the clear fact that the God was addressing the MALAIKA when he told them to prostrate to Adam, the God does not punish innocent bystanders nor expect another suppossed group to know a command was for them also when the God only said "Malaika".
Anyway, I discussed the following on a previous post and no one has yet put forth a credible response
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
The statement "assembly of jinn and men" indicates to us that we have a physical part to us and a metaphysical(mental) part to us. The physical world is where we see human bodies, the metaphysical realm is where the controlling forces which are COVERED/HIDDEN reside. All physical realities come from thoughts and forces within.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from menfor Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
Yes, inpsiration comes from WITHIN, from the forces of control from the God, and inspired MEN share this message EXTERNALLY with each other. Therefore there are messengers from within(mailaika) and from the outer realm(men). This is all part of the same Being.
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
YOur error stems from not understanding that "jinn' DESCIBES "malaika", the forces of control are COVERED/HIDDEN, they are not a seperate Being.
Now, if an angel went to the Jinn, it would have only been to give a Message/wahy to a particular Jinn to give to other Jinns. Clearly the Jinn inhabit the earth, hence, if they were other than homo sapien sapiens, Allah would have had to send a Jinn as Messenger to the Jinns and not just angel as a bearer of revelation.
Again, this is cleared up CLEARLY by understanding that "jinn" describes Malaika. No further explanation is required.
If the Jinn didn't inhabit the earth and they weren't homo sapien sapiens, how then, could they have helped Solomon build his many and prodigious edifices?
Because "jinn" (hidden ones) are describing the FORCES of CONTROL which include THOUGHTS. YOu cant do anything without the proper IDEA(thoughts) + Energy to carry out the thought. Idea + Energy = Emotions(Energy in motion). This is the secret of Solomon that we are being taught, either you use your emotions or they use YOU.
An angel could not have been their prophet/Messenger example. What Message did a Jinn bring to other Jinns? Allah, makes it clear that, he only chose angels and men as Messsengers and He sent men to men--rijalun . You still have not reconciled 6130 and 2275.
I have reconciled it clearly, the question is will you accept the truth?
I want to now pursue the ayats mentioning Solomon and the Jinn
2717 Soloman's troops, made up of jinn and men and birds, were assembled for him, paraded in tight ranks.
Yes, jinn(hidden forces), men, and birds(high spiritual discipline)
The key words, for me at least are
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troops/junooduhu= body of soldiers/troops, collected body of men prepared for war.
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Jinn=people of different far flung countries living detached from other civilized peopled; beings who remain aloof from other people, hence, making them inaccessible to view i.e. powerful people.
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birds/ttayri= cavalry, swift animals, company of men.
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ranks/yoozaAAoona= they were arranged in separate well-disciplined columns.
These are definitions that are conjured based on the wrong ideas and are not consistent throughout he reading(quran) which is proof of thier incorrectness.
The ayat begins with defining what Solomon's hosts were--junooduhu, hence, what follows cannot be an aggregate of invisible fiery beings/jinn, human beings, and feathered creatures/birds. This makes no sense at all nor does history support any such fantastic notions.
History does not support any sticks turning to snakes , nor dead being brought to life, nor seas being split. SO in the same manner, we must first understand the METAPHOR. I am using my "troops" right now to destroy an incorrect argument. WHat better troops than correct thoughts achieved by spiritual discipline? And other men and women to back up the correct position?
The idea of "birds" symbolizing men is not new. Alexander Hislop, in his book, The Two Babylons writes
When we look at such figures as those which are here presented to the reader, with their great extent of expanded wing, as symbolising an Assyrian king, what a vividness and force does it give to the inspired language of the prophet! And how clear is it, also, that the stretching forth of the Assyrian monarch's WINGS, that was to "fill the breadth of Immanuel's land," has that very symbolic meaning to which I have referred--viz., the overspreading of the land by his "mighty ones," or hosts of armed men, that the king of Babylon was to bring with him in his overflowing invasion! ...Now, the understanding of this equivocal sense of "Baal-aberin" can alone explain the remarkable statement of Aristophanes, that at the beginning of the world "the birds" were first created, and then after their creation, came the "race of the blessed immortal gods." This has been regarded as either an atheistical or nonsensical utterance on the part of the poet, but, with the true key applied to the language, it is found to contain an important historical fact. Let it only be borne in mind that "the birds"--that is, the "winged ones"--symbolised "the Lords of the mighty ones," and then the meaning is clear, viz., that men first "began to be mighty on the earth"; and then, that the "Lords" or Leaders of "these mighty ones" were deified.
There leaves no doubt that, "birds", can only be referring to Solomon's cavalry of swift moving men, either on foot or horse or both.
Alexander should have studied a little more and he would have understood better the symbolism of "birds". The bird symbolized the awakened WILL of man, the ability to SEE/PERCIEVE correctly, the understanding that BREATH(birds have strong lungs) is the gateway to the Spirit(the realm of jinn), thus we have reSPIRation/Spirit/InSPIRation, etc. WHen one is emotional(not at peace) the breath is shallow and restricted to the chest area, when we focus on the breath and slow it down and make it deep and from the stomach, we regain our peace. There is MUCH more to be said about that but that is for another discussion.
Turning to the bible, 1Kings 513-17
Main Entry LEVY the enlistment or conscription of men for military service.
13] And king Solomon raised a levy out of all Israel; and the levy was thirty thousand men.
And he sent them to Lebanon ten thousand a month by courses a month they were in Lebanon, and two months at home and Adoniram was over the levy.
And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains;
Beside the chief of Solomon's officers which were over the work, three thousand and three hundred, which ruled over the people that wrought in the work.
And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.
2Chrons. 217-18
Main Entry ALIEN a person of another family, race, or nation
17 Solomon took a census of all the aliens who were in Israel, after the census his father David had taken; and they were found to be 153,600.
18 He assigned 70,000 of them to be carriers and 80,000 to be stonecutters in the hills, with 3,600 foremen over them to keep the people working.
The strangers/aliens mentioned in verse 17, describes exactly one of the main definitions of Jinn--people from other lands.
The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.
Allah, in Al-Quran states
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And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Once again turning to the bible the following verses support the above ayats
1Kings 513 King Solomon conscripted laborers from all Israel-thirty thousand men. 14 He sent them off to Lebanon in shifts of ten thousand a month, so that they spent one month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the forced labor. 15 Solomon had seventy thousand carriers and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hills, 16 as well as thirty-three hundred foremen who supervised the project and directed the workmen. 17 At the king's command they removed from the quarry large blocks of quality stone to provide a foundation of dressed stone for the temple.
1Kings 7 13_15
13 King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram,
14 whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.
15 He cast two bronze pillars, each eighteen cubits high and twelve cubits around, by line. 16 He also made two capitals of cast bronze to set on the tops of the pillars; each capital was five cubits high. 17
2Chron. 46 He then made ten basins for washing and placed five on the south side and five on the north. In them the things to be used for the burnt offerings were rinsed, but the Sea was to be used by the priests for washing.
In conclusion, if the Jinn were other than homo sapien sapiens, then why is there no description of these...other than human creatures of fire or invisible fire, to be found in the bible concerning the building of Solomon's temple? Why is there no mention of these...other than human creatures mentioned anywhere in the historical records? On the contrary, the bible accounts are very close to the Quranic accounts concerning Solomon's building projects and no one worked on those projects other than...homo sapien sapiens...Jinn included.
Since the word "jinn" is a DESCRIPTION of the forces of control which are HIDDEN, there will not be any PHYSICAL mention of something that does not exsist as a being. "Jinn" are describing the malaika and shayteen which are WITHIN MEN and the physical world. They are the MOVING FORCES of the CREATION. SO one would only SEE human beings who are POSSESSED/INSPIRED by these forces, thats all. D
Main Entry GENTILE Pronunciation 'jen-"tIl Etymology Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-,GENS-nation a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew HEATHEN, PAGAN
When I look at the word gentile-GENS , I cannot help but notice how close it resembles JINNS-GENS. Just a coincidence?...I don't think so. What better defines/describes the gentile world/peoples, than...fire free of smoke?
I see no connection at all.
Looking forward to any critical analysis which would contradict these findings.
I have answered all of your questions with a clear and incontradictory understanding. We are back where we started, your theory still contradicts while the truth remains clear from falsehood. The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?
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PEACE, IDOL
Your theories make precious little sense. You've defining things as you wish and not as Allah has defined them and, have simply ignored both secular and scriptural historical corroboration altogehter. At this point it would be helpful if you would name the sources of your "theories" so that I can examine what they are saying. If you cannot provide authoritative corroboration for your position, then you are simply proferring metaphysical/theosophical mysticisms as Quranic truths and that is not acceptable. You must now ground your theories in concrete evidence, otherwise, you must concede that you do not know what you are talking about and that all you have been doing to this point is aggressively conjecturing.
The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?
How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka? Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.
The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.
Of course it confirms my understanding of the Jinn. One of the MAIN definitions of Jinn is..."foreign people". If one is foreign, then one is hidden, that is, inaccessible to view until coming into view. Show me some authority where it states jinn and malaika are not different beings, thanks.
Your ideas remind me of book I read many years ago--"The Mysteries of Genesis", ever hear of it? A good deal of what the authored proffered I can agree with. He uses the "metaphorical" in a more grounded way than you, but you are close. What I mean is he takes the literal and sees the metaphorical at the same time, if that is clear to you.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Your theories make precious little sense. You've defining things as you wish and not as Allah has defined them and, have simply ignored both secular and scriptural historical corroboration altogehter. At this point it would be helpful if you would name the sources of your "theories" so that I can examine what they are saying. If you cannot provide authoritative corroboration for your position, then you are simply proferring metaphysical/theosophical mysticisms as Quranic truths and that is not acceptable. You must now ground your theories in concrete evidence, otherwise, you must concede that you do not know what you are talking about and that all you have been doing to this point is aggressively conjecturing.
I do not understand what it is you are looking for. You have to really be looking for the answer to get what I am saying. I think you might be so stuck on your theory that you are unwilling to make the connections that you must make to understand this. It does not take long to sit back and monitor the thoughts in your head. Just take some time tonight and do that. Think about why the God says in one verse "When you are alone with your shayteen you say -We are really with you..."
These are the forces of control not expressed correctly, while the proper thoughts would have been described as malaika. And all of these faculties are hidden(jinn).
There's not going to be too much concreteness in something that is clearly described as COVERED/HIDDEN. What you fail to realize is that if human beings were "jinn" then that means that NO ONE could see them. I am sure that they are not HIDDEN to thier own families. Is the God's guidance not for thier families as well? Or are they invisible even to thier own families?
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The God does not punish the innocent. "jinn" and "malaika" are not different beings, jinn describes malaika. Very Simple, will you submit?How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka?
That is just the question that you need to ask yourself, WHY doesn't the God address tha nature of malaika? Becuase malaika and shayteen are both parts of the group "jinn" (hidden ones), which has been described.
Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.
Again, I do not understand what concrete evidence you want from that which is HIDDEN. I do not have the power to change the God's design in order to convince you. You have to take the responsibility of convincing your own person.
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The reading states that Men were part of Solomon's army, foreign men are still men. This does not confrim in any way your theory.Of course it confirms my understanding of the Jinn. One of the MAIN definitions of Jinn is..."foreign people". If one is foreign, then one is hidden, that is, inaccessible to view until coming into view. Show me some authority where it states jinn and malaika are not different beings, thanks.
Again, a human cannot be foriegn to everyone, so it is not a consistent description and therefore fails. This message is for EVERYONE, there is no one "foriegn" enough to be left out and merely created so you can call them "jinn".
I would like to know how you understand the story of Adam. Adam is symbolizing mankind, so are you saying that a "foreigner" refused to prostrate to mankind? A "foriegner" who is somehow outside of mankind(adam)? I do not think that you properly thought this through.
Your ideas remind me of book I read many years ago--"The Mysteries of Genesis", ever hear of it? A good deal of what the authored proffered I can agree with. He uses the "metaphorical" in a more grounded way than you, but you are close. What I mean is he takes the literal and sees the metaphorical at the same time, if that is clear to you.
I am not sure what it is the bothers you about me and my reasoning process, but lets stick to the facts. I have given you the literal, all you have to do is be aware of your thoughts, literally.
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PEACE IDOL
Thank you for your response. Let's continue.
I do not understand what it is you are looking for. You have to really be looking for the answer to get what I am saying. I think you might be so stuck on your theory that you are unwilling to make the connections that you must make to understand this. It does not take long to sit back and monitor the thoughts in your head. Just take some time tonight and do that. Think about why the God says in one verse "When you are alone with your shayteen you say -We are really with you..." These are the forces of control not expressed correctly, while the proper thoughts would have been described as malaika.
I don't have any problem with you or the author of "The Mysteries of Genesis, extrapolating from the literal to the metaphorical, however, the difference between the author/myself and you is, you deny that the jinn are referring to homo sapien sapiens but are disembodied thoughts. I'm proffering that the Jinn, being made of fire free of smoke, is referring to a particular aggregate of thoughts which give them their character/mindset apart from men and malaika. It is the same with man being "created of haste". Does not man exist as a created being? so "haste", as with "fire free of smoke", are metaphors/Quranic expressions for mindsets/characters. Hence, the Jinn as with man must also exist as objective sentient entities i.e. homo sapien sapiens.
There's not going to be too much concreteness in something that is clearly described as COVERED/HIDDEN.
What I still need from you, which you are reluctant to give me is, some corroborative sources for your theory. Without some authoritative corroborative evidence/support, your theory can only be regarded as nothing more that you own conjecture.
What you fail to realize is that if human beings were "jinn" then that means that NO ONE could see them.
Exactly where we depart on the issue of Jinn! I do not regard them as invisible by nature that is Arabian Nights stuff. I maintain the Jinn, that is, this nature called Jinn, is a particular mindset/character. Of course, people can disguise their natures sometimes making their nature invisible, however, as a people, the Jinn must share a mindset in common. For me that nature/mindset/character is predominantly "passion/sense/physical oriented".
PRIEST How can you conclude that Jinn and malaika are not different beings, when Allah does not address the nature of the maliaka?
That is just the question that you need to ask yourself, WHY doesn't the God address tha nature of malaika? Becuase malaika and shayteen are both parts of the group "jinn" (hidden ones), which has been described.
Well, if this is the case, then you need to bring your borhan/corrobative evidence to bear out your assumption. Just your stating this does not make your theory valid. We don't know why Allah didn't describe the natures of the malaika, however, He does tell us, unlike Jinns and men, they do not disobey Him. That speaks volumes to me, in that, if malaika and jinn were all the same thing, then the ayat where Allah says the malaika don't disobey or show pride, would not be true. I don't expect you to accept ayat 1649-50 anymore than you accept that 1850 defines Iblis as a Jinn and not a malaika. In fact, your theory hinges on denial of ayats 1649-50 and 1850.
PRIEST Are the malika, then, created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide any concrete evidence to support your notion.
Again, I do not understand what concrete evidence you want from that which is HIDDEN. I do not have the power to change the God's design in order to convince you. You have to take the responsibility of convincing your own person.
No, you must take responsibility for Quranically defending your theory. You must provide corroborative evidence for your assumptions. You can make an assumption you wish, but you must prove it not me. I'm not here to prove your theory, that is your task. So, I ask you once again
If the malika and Jinn and not different beings, then, is it your position that they too were created of a scorching wind, is this your position? Please provide ayats from Al-Quran as evidence to support your notion.
Again, a human cannot be foriegn to everyone, so it is not a consistent description and therefore fails. This message is for EVERYONE, there is no one "foriegn" enough to be left out and merely created so you can call them "jinn".
"Foreign", in this sense, is referring more on spiritual level than a physical one, meaning, the Jinn who worked for Solomon, were either not living by Allah's Law either by ignorance of the Law or rejection of it. Lands/peoples foreign to Solomon would therefore be Jinns.
I would like to know how you understand the story of Adam. Adam is symbolizing mankind, so are you saying that a "foreigner" refused to prostrate to mankind? A "foriegner" who is somehow outside of mankind(adam)? I do not think that you properly thought this through.
Metaphorically, speaking
The Jinn represent the id/drives/appetites/passions/"fire"-nar, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature.
The Malaika represent the conscience/drive for perfection/internal punisher, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature.
Adam represents the ego/balance between the Jinn nature and Malaika nature, inherent in homo sapien sapien nature.
The Tree represents a people and their worldview/philosophy, specifically, the Iblis lead Jinn people, who are astray either because of ignorance or design.
The Jinn, therefore, as a people before Adam, were more id/drive/passion dominated. The Jinn nature given it orientation, could not be in charge of the earth because they would cause more damage than not, hence, the need for a Khalifa/Successor--Adam , one who would come to bring balance and an orientation toward submission to a Divine Law, in other words--a "cooler being".
Of course this theory needs work, but it is much more coherent and in alignment with Al-Quran than your own.
I am not sure what it is the bothers you about me and my reasoning process, but lets stick to the facts. I have given you the literal, all you have to do is be aware of your thoughts, literally.
What bothers me is that you have yet to provide any corrobative evidence for your theory, hence, it is no more than just flowery discourse and conjecture.
I don't have any problem with being aware of my thoughts LOL!, after all, isn't that why Allah sent the Prophets, Messengers and Books in the first place? No, our discussion/issue is...are the Jinn representative of a particular mindset/character/ of homo sapien sapiens or...something else independent of homo sapien sapiens.
Bring some authoritative/corroborative evidence in next your next response or simply concede that your position is not Quranically sound.
Looking forward to your comments, peace.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Please realize as you try to put make jinn into one type of character, that there is a verse that states of the jinn "there are some that are righteous and some that follow a different path".
The Jinn represent the id/drives/appetites/passions/"fire"-nar, inherent in the homo sapien sapien nature
I thought you said they were foriegners?
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PEACE, IDOL
Please realize as you try to put make jinn into one type of character, that there is a verse that states of the jinn "there are some that are righteous and some that follow a different path".
Their overall character/nature is given to their passions/desires. This, in and of itself , is not bad or evil, but if the homo sapien sapien were to remain on that level, this nature would incline more and more towards
evil/rebellion/nonsubmision. This is why Adam and the prophets/messengers/books were/are necessary. The Jinn, in my view, who would follow the law of Allah...would become..."human", meaning, divinely oriented, submissive, cool of nature, balanced. The Jinn who would not follow Allah's Laws, in my view, are represented by the "tree"The Tree represents a people and their worldview/philosophy, specifically, the Iblis lead Jinn people, who are astray either because of ignorance or design.
I thought you said they were foriegners?
Once again, you didn't take time to read/think about my post. Don't be hasty. This is what I said regarding foriegners
"Foreign", in this sense, is referring more on spiritual level than a physical one, meaning, the Jinn who worked for Solomon, were either not living by Allah's Law, either by ignorance of the Law or rejection of it. Lands/peoples foreign to Solomon would therefore be Jinns.
I'm still awaiting your corroborative evidence for your theory/assumptions...is it soon forthcoming?
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salam PRIEST_BOKMEI.
WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
Given your analysis of messenger, how does your analysis take into account the following analysis by me. Please pay special attention to ayats 6130 and 2275
Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings
12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?
1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things)....
...Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them.
2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .
1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them
was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to
be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind .
in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states .
thats my opinion.My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.
what "homo sapien sapiens" ?
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PEACE, SALADIN
2275 doesnt say that God doesnt send anyone except men and angels as rasools. while 6130 states that humans and jinns recieved their own rasools .
1794-95 What kept men back from Belief when Guidance came to them was nothing but this they said "Has Allah sent a man like us) to be (His) Apostle?" Say "If there were settled on earth angels walking about in peace and quiet We should certainly have sent them down from
the heavens an angel for an apostle.1795 is stating that had angels been living on earth , God would have sent angels to them . but God only send men(as NABIs) to mankind . in the same way , only a jinn would be sent to the jinns , just like 6130 states . thats my opinion.
Thank you for your reply.
This is what I am trying to flesh out. In that, Allah says that He chooses messengers from angels and me, nowhere does He say that He chooses Jinn as messengers. If Jinn, had their own species specific messengers, then Allah would have had to have said..."I choose angels, jinn and men as rasuls", otherwise, a discrepancy occurs between 2275 and 6130. Given that the Jinn are on earth , ayat 1795 reinforces 2275 that the Jinn are not a non-human species, otherwise, they would have to have their own species specific messengers. I'm not asking you to engage me in debate over this, I just wanted your view on messengership and to make me aware of any holes in my analysis of the identity of the Jinn.
Homo sapien sapiens, is the scientific name for anatomically modern man dating back some 200,000 years or more. I use this in contrast to human being because I think that human being speaks to a certain spiritual/moral development within the homo sapien sapien. In other words, in my estimation, all human beings are homo sapien sapien, but not all homo sapien sapiens are human beings, do you see my point?
Thank you for your comments and I won't ask you to respond beyond what you have already unless you have the mind to of course. Don't worry, I'm not looking for a debate, I just wanted your view on messengership, and to make me aware of anything which you may perceive as holes in my analysis. Would appreciate any ideas.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.
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PEACE IDOL
Peace be upon you PB,
I will not respond any further as we are at the same position we were at last year. My evidence has been given, even though you desire something else. SO at this point, I will let you continue "fleshing out" your understanding. When you have figured it all out, then we can enter into discussion and see which understanding holds up.
I'm sorry that you will not continue to participate in the discussion. My request of you, which I'm disappointed you did not honor, was to bring some corroborative evidence for your theory. You must understand that to simply say "something is this" or "something is that" and then to ask people to accept it without supporting authoritative corroboration, is asking a great deal. Even Allah commands us not to follow His Words without seeking corroboration from His creation--am I correct?. Unless you can provide some meaningful corroboration for your theory, it cannot even be considered an opinion, but rather, just your impressions.
Can you or can you not provide corroboration for your theory? That really is a yes or no answer. If yes, then please provide it, thanks.
Peace, bro.