WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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Salaams Gourself,
Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amannabiAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wamahum bimu/mineena
Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
Ma yawaddu allatheena kafaroomin ahli alkitabi wala almushrikeena an yunazzalaAAalaykum min khayrin min rabbikum waAllahu yakhtassubirahmatihi man yashao waAllahu thooalfadli alAAatheemi
It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.
In the first its some=man.
In the second man=whom.WaAllahu khalaqa kulla dabbatinmin ma-in faminhum man yamshee AAala batnihiwaminhum man yamshee AAala rijlayni waminhum man yamsheeAAala arbaAAin yakhluqu Allahu ma yashaoinna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun
And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
Try.
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
But no boubt , may be i am wrong!
Salaams.
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Peace.
And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
The "man" in this case is a conjunctive pronoun, eg., he, they. The translator has just not included it. "...and some that (they=man) walk on two legs."
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Salaams Gourself,
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.If ?man?-arabic ,does mean ?all? (as you say) then why does this one ayah say everybody submits and then the same ayah says ?only some of mankind?
I don?t get it!
Salaam Gourself.
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Peace Mz,
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.If ?man?-arabic ,does mean ?all? (as you say) then why does this one ayah say everybody submits and then the same ayah says ?only some of mankind?
I don?t get it!
It's one of those days for you. lol I have them too. S-J-D submit, some men do and some men don't. Note the willingly and unwillingly is not here. Those two words make the other statement all inclusive. Note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.
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Salaams Grourself,someone,
so are you sugesting that the following statement doesn't mean every thing and "man" in this case doesn't mean "all"?as you said earlier?
"Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth-------"
Gods Blessings.
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Peace Mz
Salaams Grourself,someone,
so are you sugesting that the following statement doesn't mean every thing and "man" in this case doesn't mean "all"?as you said earlier?
"Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth-------"
Gods Blessings.
I didn?t say ?man? meant ?all?. Man doesn?t mean all, it means he, she, they, both of them, whosoever. It is left out of the English in some verses. Insert it without changing anything else in the verse and it will be clear. I hope
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Salaams Grourself,
Okay now why isn't the following possible?
Ma = some qd p524
Man = reasonables qd p542See/compare the following two ayah?s to see what are the malaikaat.
1649
And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
God Blesses.
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I don't agree with you on this point. We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe. You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun. But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.
I'm not certain what you disagree with. I agree the malaika carry out Allah's Will, and, this being the case, they cannot disobey Him. I not only acknowledge that the maliaka are behind the biological forces, the wind and sun, but, the biological forces, the wind and sun, might also be malaika in their own right .
I fear you did not pay attention to my claim, that is Malaika are behind the biological/psychological forces that move living beings in their lives.
So, when God address the malaika, after he has created Adam, the biological/psychological forces that move Adam are present among the malaika.
And the one that refuse to prostrate (Iblis) is the malaika that move people to be overproud / selfish. Since this force has rebelled, she gets banned, and is no longer called malaika.He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?
He said ?Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.?
He said ?Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected??
He said ?You are granted.?
He said ?For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path.?
?Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative.?
He said ?Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!?Before he rebelled, Iblis was a malaika. So he had to avoid arrogance. When he rebelled and became arrogant, he got banned and disgraced.
For example, 1850, is explicit and definitive, regarding why Iblis diosbeyed Allah's command...he was of the Jinn.
Again, you are not taking heed of what I have explained you before, id est Iblis is not a jinn.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918PRIEST Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.
But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell. Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.I don't know what translation you used, but it cannot possibly be correct
917-8 And the soul and Him Who made it perfect, Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
I used FM's transaltion.
But could you explain me how Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha becomes Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong ? Where do the words I have underlined in your translation come from ?
Allah, being ALL GOOD, cannot created evil for that would constitute a discrepancy in His Character. It is homo sapien sapiens, who, by their limited-free will, choose to misuse the both internal and external malaika. Allah, has taught the homo s.s to understand what constitutes evil and how to guard against it by having taqwa . The ayat you posted is not a good translation.
You are saying God cannot have created evil. So, who have created Iblis/Shaytan ? Is Iblis/Shaytan self-created ?
Are you sure you are not a Zoroastrian ? or an Manichaeist ?Maybe you should ponder the following verses...
God is the Creator of all things, and He is Guardian over all things.
He said ?O Satan, what prevented you from submitting to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted??
He said ?I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay.?You cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.
God did not give Iblis the choice between good and evil. Iblis has no free will. But God caused/allowed him to rebel, and to become the devil.
He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?
He said ?Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.?
He said ?Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected??
He said ?You are granted.?
He said ?For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path.?
?Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative.?
He said ?Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!?If Iblis had no choice and was simply created to do evil because that is his created nature, then why does Allah question his actions?
712 He said What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said I am better than he Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
1532 He said O Iblis! what excuse have you that you are not with those who make obeisance?
3875 He said O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
If, as you claim, Iblis had no choice, then why did Allah ask him why he disobeyed? If he were created to do just that, rebel and be evil, then there would be no need for Allah to ask why, it would be a dumb question. The question doesn't appear to be rhetorical, because Iblis gives a response
Main EntryRHETORICAL QUESTION A question asked without expecting an answer but for the sake of emphasis or effect. The expected answer is usually ?yes? or ?no.?; a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something.
And on the Day when We gather them together with what they served besides God; then He will Say ?Did you misguide My servants here, or did they stray from the path??
They said ?Glory be to You, it was not for us to take besides You any allies; indeed You gave them and their fathers luxury until they forgot the remembrance, and they were a lost people.?Do you really think God needs to ask the people this question, in order to know what they have done ? I don't, because
He is the Knower of what is inside the chests.
However, God asks them a question, and they answer him.God knows everything, so there is no doubt he knows what Iblis will answer... Iblis is not outside his control.
He said ?My Lord, for that which I have been misled by, I will make the Earth appear beautiful for them, and I will mislead them all.?
?Except for Your servants who are devoted.?
He said ?This shall be a Straight Path to Me.?
?For My servants, you shall have no authority over them, except those who are misled and follow you.?
?And Hell, for all of those, shall be the appointed place.?That's why I agree with Asad when he says
Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God. Satan fulfils a definite function in God's plan he is the eternal tempter who enables man to exercise his God-given freedom of choice between good and evil and, thus, to become a being endowed with moral free will.Peace
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Salaams all,
if you have the time check out the following topic please and send some response
It contains information from a number of peoples -
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3508
it has been changed from before.
Its Good-i would say. Salaams.
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From PRL
Quote
= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folkI remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.
As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL)
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Peace be upon you all,
Can I get an update of the position everyon holds regarding jinn? Especially PB. I assume you have done some fleshing out of your position by now. I would like to get back in the debate.
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As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL)
.Peace all
I have found in a sunni source an interesting grammatical point about the structure kana ... fa ...
He writes "The conjunction fa' in the Arabic text "kana min al-jinn fa-fasaqa 'an amri Rabbihi" is indicative of the reason, as in the Arabic phrase saraqa fa quti'at yaduhu which means, "he stole, so his hand was cut off", i.e., that was because he stole; or the phrase saha fa sajada which means, "he forgot so he prostrated", i.e., that was because he forgot." To this we add what he refrains from mentioning that in lughat al-fushah the connection of a cause by the use of fa- is the apparent grammatical meaning when the verb expressing the cause is immediately followed by the verb explaining the consequence preceded fa-. In association with the infinitive "kana", however, the consequence with fa- also stands for a consequence of status, i.e. "in quality of", i.e. This is the kind of meaning those who abide by a Wahhabi conjectural tafsir are veiled, meaning "He was one of the jinn; AND AS SUCH HE DISOBEYED the Command of his Lord". The implied allusion is that he became wicked as a jinn, since this was impossible for him as one of the Angels who do not disobey because of the nature of light.
http//groups.yahoo.com/group/islaminst/message/3095Can someone confirm it is right ?
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PEACE, /JM/,
These remain my stuck points.
Before he rebelled, Iblis was a malaika. So he had to avoid arrogance. When he rebelled and became arrogant, he got banned and disgraced.
You, Idol, and some others, continue to make the above claim, however, you have to produce an explicit ayat where Allah identifies Iblis as one of the malaika. Ayat, 234, at best, remains open-ended/allusory, and is not definitive of your position/argument. If Iblis was a malaika, then ayats 1649-50 and 234, are in stark contadiction, because ayats 1649-50 state that, both the dabbatin and the malaika do not disobey...they have no free-will.
God did not give Iblis the choice between good and evil. Iblis has no free will. But God caused/allowed him to rebel, and to become the devil.
Your above statement is contradictory. Did Allah cause or allow? If Allah caused Iblis to rebel, then, Iblis, had no choice in his actions, hence, how can he be sent to Hell for doing what he was created to do? Where is the mercy, justice, or logic in that? If Allah allowed him to rebel, then, Iblis, had a chioce. If Iblis had no free-will, as you claim, then how was he able to all of sudden choose to cease being obedient and become arrogant and rebellious?
You are saying God cannot have created evil. So, who have created Iblis/Shaytan ? Is Iblis/Shaytan self-created ? Are you sure you are not a Zoroastrian ? or an Manichaeist ?
I am a Muslim. Still, you did not answer my question...did Allah create something evil by nature? If Iblis/Shaitan, had no choice, then, Allah, created something from the beginning which was evil by nature, hence, the entire rhetorical question to Iblis from Allah, "why did you not prostrate etc...", is vain. If Allah created him to be evil and rebellious, then why the rhetorical question, it makes no sense? Iblis, from all accounts, was not created evil, because accoording to your argument, at one time, he was one of the malaika. Are you now saying some malaika were created evil and others weren't?
That's why I agree with Asad when he says
Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God. Satan fulfils a definite function in God's plan he is the eternal tempter who enables man to exercise his God-given freedom of choice between good and evil and, thus, to become a being endowed with moral free will.I have some problems with some of his statements. 1. he is assuming that Iblis was created evil, yet, Al-Quran makes no such claim. 2. Only Allah is eternal not Shaytan.
Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the senses, then how are men influenced by them/how are they detected?
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you all,
Can I get an update of the position everyon holds regarding jinn? Especially PB. I assume you have done some fleshing out of your position by now. I would like to get back in the debate.
You are encouraged to re-enter the debate.
See my post to Post to /JM/, Sat May 14, 2005 559 am, for my stuck points.
Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the sense, then how are men influenced by them?
Looking forward to your response.
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Salaams PB,All,
I think you honestly believe in the fairy type of Angels?
But i think/to me they are humans who are subservient to Allah.
So can you show where it says that Malaikaat always obey Allah or thats what they are made for - to obey him only or something like this ,if you still hold to your previous views that is.
Peace.
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PEACE. MZ357
I think you honestly believe in the fairy type of Angels?
On the contrary, I am a coldly rational person and that is why I insist on cold facts and not assumptions/allusions.
But i think/to me they are humans who are subservient to Allah.
You maybe correct. Can you now bring substantiation for your conjecture?
So can you show where it says that Malaikaat always obey Allah or thats what they are made for - to obey him only or something like this ,if you still hold to your previous views that is.
1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
"Do what they are commanded", according to this ayat, is unqualified and explicit. Do you have an ayat where it explicitly states that the malaika can choose to disobey?
Peace.
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Salaams PB,
You said
"1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded. "
This translation is somewhat wrong if i may say so.
- "whatever creature" doesn't accur in the ayah.
show us where the creature part especially is coming in from.
The "MA" ACCORDING TO qd = some/a certain (p524)
I think in this case the ?MA? is being used as a noun denoting objects in the heavens and the earth ,and according to QD its meaning is ?some? in such a case.
Here to me is a much better trans
1649
And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.And here is its replica in another part of the quran
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
Gods Blessings.
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PEACE, MZ357
PRIEST "1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded. "
This translation is somewhat wrong if i may say so.
- "whatever creature" doesn't accur in the ayah.
show us where the creature part especially is coming in from.
1649 And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
1649 Walillahi yasjudu ma fee assamawati wama fee alardi min dabbatin walmalaikatu wahum la yastakbiroon
The "MA" ACCORDING TO qd = some/a certain (p524)
I think in this case the ?MA? is being used as a noun denoting objects in the heavens and the earth ,and according to QD its meaning is ?some? in such a case.
Here to me is a much better trans
1649 And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.
This makes some sense, in that, of the dabbatin, man does not always/consistently submit. I will think about your trans.
And here is its replica in another part of the quran
2218 Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.
From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
Injecting malaikaat into ayat 2218, is very uncomfortable for me. I cannot, at this time anyway, accept your reasoning.
Please give me translation of the following in bold. This ayat, for me anyway, establishes that the Jinn are homo sapien sapiens.
726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona bi
rijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqa
