Jews not following Torah are like donkeys with Books

Fawzia

This is what the Quran says about Jews who were given the Torah laws but simultaneously didn't apply those.

062.005
YUSUFALI The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah and Allah guides not people who do wrong.
PICKTHAL The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books. Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.
FREE MINDS The example of those who were given the Torah, but then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey that is carrying a cargo of books. Miserable indeed is the example of the people who denied the revelations of God. And God does not guide the wicked people.

These are some of the Torah laws, which have fortunately been done away with by the Jewish rabbis via creative re interpretations

Killing of apostates unmercifully

"If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship other gods" you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely KILL them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and then the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God." (Deut 136-10)

Killing the rebellious child

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. ? (Deuteronomy 2118-21)

(225)Women cannot wear men's clothing and vice versa -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord."
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

(2211) No Garment of two materials together
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."

(2213-21) When a man hates his new wife who doesn't bleed on her wedding night, her parents have to produce bloody sheets or she'll be stoned
"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her ... and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel ... Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die."

(2223-24)Man(married or unmarried) & married woman having sex shall both die"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die."

Isn't it fortunate that Jews had the intelligence & the foresight to abandon such laws around 2 millennia back?

That they don't kill their children who apostatize, don't kill adulteresses, don't kill non bleeding newly wed women etc?

This flexibility of Jewish laws & their brilliant ability to adjust with modernity is one of the best aspects of Judaism.

Israel doesn't have laws prohibiting women from wearing men's clothes & vice versa, while Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist & even Conservative Jews have done away with even much of the Jewish lifestyle requirements, even Haredi Jews don't kill their apostate kids or stone adulteresses,homosexuals & non bleeding newlyweds.

The Torah lets daughters inherit only if they don't have brothers, yet Israel & most Jews give women equal inheritance with men. Jews often break the Sabbath, financial requirements may force Jews to work, however, they aren't jailed for this.

That doesn't mean that they all become bad people, most lead good, moral lives.

Why was Muhammad being such a hard headed literalist regarding the Torah which had so impressed him?

Isn't it natural that Muslims would take after him & fail to incorporate the changes with modernity?

And why insult so many Jews without valid reason? The majority of Jews in the world are Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Humanist, even Modern Orthodox do not uphold all Jewish laws-they wear clothes made of two fibres, women wear jeans & shorts, don't they have the right to lead their lives as they please?

Fawzia

My boyfriend is a Reconstructionist Jew, identifies himself as a Jew, but doesn't believe in God\s, his sister who also identifies herself as Jewish, has a Japanese American Buddhist boyfriend, she's attended Buddhist idolatrous meditation sessions,my boyfriend once took up a job that required him to work on Sabbath days, he did, they don't uphold all that the Torah requires, they simply follow modern ethical principles-and like the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants, they're good, morally righteous people.They don't steal, lie, cheat etc but such behavior is taught amongst most religious & even non religious ethical systems.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

Such characterizations are very offensive to these non practice, non orthodox Jews.

herbman

Peace,

so why did you try coranism , you should have try Reconstructionism.

Shalom

imfromjakarta

Peace Fawzia,

This is what the Quran says about Jews who were given the Torah laws but simultaneously didn't apply those.

FREE MINDS The example of those who were given the Torah, but then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey that is carrying a cargo of books. Miserable indeed is the example of the people who denied the revelations of God. And God does not guide the wicked people.

Instead of upholding the law in Torah, they prefer to uphold other books such as

Mishna the collection of oral laws compiled about a.d. 200 by Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi and forming the basic part of the Talmud.

Gemara the section of the Talmud consisting essentially of commentary on the Mishnah

both of them called Talmud the collection of Jewish law and tradition consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara and being either the edition produced in Palestine a.d. c400 or the larger, more important one produced in Babylonia a.d. c500)

so they prefer to use The Torah and Talmud.

The similar fate also happens to people that called them self 'muslim'. Instead of upholding the law in al-Qur'an, they prefer to use hadith compiled by Bukhari and co, ijma of Islamic scholars etc along with al-Qur'an.

Fawzia

Peace,

so why did you try coranism , you should have try Reconstructionism.

Shalom

I should've, mistake I made. I didn't want to quit my Muslim heritage, I too would get very angry if someone pointed out the explicitly discriminatory & violent stuff in the Quran to me, like members do here-try to get them to stop in anyway I could.

However, I have finally found the courage to face the truth & leave.

abdalquran

Fawzia the 10-month Quranist doesn't know that tauraat ISN'T torah, lol.

Fawzia, prove to me that when Quran says 'tauraat', its referring to the 'Torah'. I await your evidence (but i wont hold my breath).

Fawzia

Peace Fawzia,

Instead of upholding the law in Torah, they prefer to uphold other books such as

Mishna the collection of oral laws compiled about a.d. 200 by Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi and forming the basic part of the Talmud.

Gemara the section of the Talmud consisting essentially of commentary on the Mishnah

both of them called Talmud the collection of Jewish law and tradition consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara and being either the edition produced in Palestine a.d. c400 or the larger, more important one produced in Babylonia a.d. c500)

so they prefer to use The Torah and Talmud.

The similar fate also happens to people that called them self 'muslim'. Instead of upholding the law in al-Qur'an, they prefer to use hadith compiled by Bukhari and co, ijma of Islamic scholars etc along with al-Qur'an.

So would it have been preferable, imfromjakarta, had they stuck exactly to the Torah?

Are these laws pleasant? Do they sound good & applicable to your ears?

Killing of apostates unmercifully

"If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship other gods" you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely KILL them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and then the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God." (Deut 136-10)

Killing the rebellious child

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. ? (Deuteronomy 2118-21)

(225)Women cannot wear men's clothing and vice versa -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord."
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

(2211) No Garment of two materials together
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."

(2213-21) When a man hates his new wife who doesn't bleed on her wedding night, her parents have to produce bloody sheets or she'll be stoned
"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her ... and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel ... Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die."

(2223-24)Man(married or unmarried) & married woman having sex shall both die"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die."

Would it be good to you if Jews killed their children who became apostates? Or stoned a newlywed who did not bleed on her wedding night & her husband complained? Would it be right to stone her on her father's doorstep? Or stoned every man(married or unmarried) who had sex with a married woman?

Its to the credit of Jews that they have been able to supercede such barbaric practices 2000 years ago via creative reinterpretations of Rabbis, & that Jews like Reform & Reconstructionist are constantly doing this.

Although the Torah gives the capital punishment for multiple offences, Israel has had only 2 executions all these years for massive war crimes, thanks to the reinterpretation of Jewish laws.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Israel

Jews who don't uphold the laws of the Torah are, by managing to do away with such barbarism two millennia ago, creating a more humane society,sure they follow the modern ethical principles of not stealing, not killing etc, but so do plenty of atheists & members of non Abrahamic faiths.

Or do you prefer rampant stonings of adulteresses, apostates & non bleeding newlyweds? ???

Fawzia

Fawzia the 10-month Quranist doesn't know that tauraat ISN'T torah, lol.

Fawzia, prove to me that when Quran says 'tauraat', its referring to the 'Torah'. I await your evidence (but i wont hold my breath).

I realise & deeply sympathise with your frustrations & your attempts to disable criticisms by attempting to claim that others lack knowledge of facts or Arabic, it happens due to Muslim insecurity, Quranist or otherwise.

Thats why whenever a non Arab Muslim joins, they're not asked to bone up on Arabic or do more research, yet apostates are blamed with lack of knowledge!

Tauraat according to the Quran is some "original Torah," which has supposedly been corrupted, & so Muhammad declared that he's been sent to straighten out & restore the original Torah & Injeel, ie the original OT & NT to how they were supposed to be.

This was simply Muhammad's attempt to legitimize his claims to be the Seal of the Prophets, ie say that the previous books were corrupted so he has to put them right.

Anyone can make such a claim, that doesn't make it true, since Muhammad died, two people, Bahaullah from Iran(founder of the Bahai faith) & Mirza Ghulam Ahmed from the sub continent have claimed to be Prophets or Messiahs!

So according to Muhammad, whatever he claims about the Torah in his Quran-ie whatever garbled reproduction of OT & NT stories he made in the Quran was the original Torah, but why should Jews be obliged to accept that?

Just like why should Muslims accept Bahaullah as their Prophet?

Fortunately,Jews have stuck to their religion, & made their religion into something beautiful & applicable in modern times,without any assistance from Mr Muhammad or joining Muhammad's faith.

So they accept that their holy book remains their Torah, which contains all the stories they started & Muhammad plagiarized,but done away with barbarisms like stonings.

No, unlike the Quran, they don't even lash adulterers now!

Pray, why should they obey Muhammad's laws & lash adulteresses?

They didn't fall en masse into Muhammad's net, they did away with unpleasant stuff in the Torah, formulated new principles via the Talmud etc.

abdalquran

Spare me your rantings. You're a person who can't argue to save your life but must actually use so-called psychological tactics (which by the way is laughable).

So you think taurat is torah, eh? Very good.

Quran says

Tauraat contains the promise that those who believe will sell their lives and wealth for the sake of Allah and will die in the cause fighting (9/111). Produce this statement from the Torah.
Tauraat says a sign of those WITH MUHAMMAD is that they will bow and prostrate seeking God's preference and goodwill.(48/29) . Produce this statement from te Torah.
Produce any statement from the Quran saying MOSES recieved tauraat.
Explain why Jesus is said to be given THE BOOK as well as wisdom, tauraat and injeel.

I await your answers, Fawzia.

Fawzia

Hi abdulquran!

Thanks for the many laughs, you really made my day! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Spare me your rantings. You're a person who can't argue to save your life but must actually use so-called psychological tactics (which by the way is laughable).

So you think taurat is torah, eh? Very good.

Your frustration at encountering an apostate is laughable indeed! AND chastising that apostate for not bothering to learn Arabic first? laugh

Please tell every convert you encounter to learn Arabic first too at least.

Did I say I believe Taurat is the Torah?

Taurat is Muhammad's garbled reproduction of Judeo Christian myths plus his own hallucinatory claims, like the one you narrated.Thats what I said.

Muhammad was impressed with Judeo Christianity, like some kids are impressed with Superman & Spiderman, immediately he saw himself as a Prophet & after repeating garbled versions of the OT\NT stories with his own alterations, he made some other claims.

He expected Jews to follow those & accept him as Prophet, thanfully they had the wishdom to repulse this imposter! ;D

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Tauraat says a sign of those WITH MUHAMMAD is that they will bow and prostrate seeking God's preference and goodwill.(48/29) . Produce this statement from te Torah.

"...Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of submitting. Such is their likeness in the Torah...." (4829)

abdalquran

Hi abdulquran!

Thanks for the many laughs, you really made my day! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Good indication of your social life.

Your frustration at encountering an apostate is laughable indeed! AND chastising that apostate for not bothering to learn Arabic first? laugh

Please tell every convert you encounter to learn Arabic first too at least.

With you, a prerequite to learning any language is learning some logical skills.

Did I say I believe Taurat is the Torah?

Sigh...I seriously cannot believe even THIS is beyond you.

Let me spell it out for you

You quoted 62/5, sayin that Jews are being faulted for not applying the 'Torah'.
62/5 doesn't mention the 'torah', it mentions at-tauraat.
However, by your reasoning (sic), the torah must be the tauraat because 'torah' is never mentioned in the Quran.
I now ask you for proof (please look it up, what 'proof' means) that torah is tauraat.
I gave you 4 points which points to the CONTRARY of this.

I await your answers (rhetorically, because I know they'll never come).

Fawzia

This is a beautiful article on the Taurat

http//www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Taurat

I never claimed that the Taurat is the Torah again, only its Muhammad's garbled reproduction of the Torah plus stuff he's added onto it to make himself look authentic & justify his claims of being the Seal of the Prophets by saying that all these were supposedly originally there but got corrupted yada, yada so he had to arrive on the scene to put things striaght! ;D

Spare me your rantings. You're a person who can't argue to save your life but must actually use so-called psychological tactics (which by the way is laughable).

So you think taurat is torah, eh? Very good.

Quran says

Tauraat contains the promise that those who believe will sell their lives and wealth for the sake of Allah and will die in the cause fighting (9/111). Produce this statement from the Torah.
Tauraat says a sign of those WITH MUHAMMAD is that they will bow and prostrate seeking God's preference and goodwill.(48/29) . Produce this statement from te Torah.

Obviously he needed to add stuff to the Quranic Taurat apart from the Torah, if he was simply reproducing, how would he justify his claims of being the restorer of original Scriptures? ;D

Why will MUHAMMAD be mentioned in the Torah? How could they know that this imposter would crop up 1000's of years later?Muhammad needed to make people believe he's the last prophet,so he liberally twisted the stories, made claims etc.

Such stuff will naturally be added in by Muhammad to show that he's indeed the restorer, thankfully Jews didn't fall for his claims & stuck to their beliefs!

abdalquran

I never claimed that the Taurat is the Torah again, only its Muhammad's garbled reproduction of the Torah plus stuff he's added onto it to make himself look authentic & justify his claims of being the Seal of the Prophets by saying that all these were supposedly originally there but got corrupted yada, yada so he had to arrive on the scene to put things striaght! ;D

Obviously he needed to add stuff to the Quranic Taurat apart from the Torah, if he was simply reproducing, how would he justify his claims of being the restorer of original Scriptures? ;D

LOL very good, thank you. I love the 'apart from the Torah' eh? Good try there, Fawzia.

Where is your EVIDENCE of this? If Quran says 'tauraat' contains the things I mentioned and Torah simply doesn't, then you'll need evidence to link the two.

Remember, you want to attack the Quran. You don't need hadith, right? Well show us how you link Torah in anyway to Quran. Quran never allows ANY OTHER source of information. Do I need to tell you, ex-Quranist? LOL.

Fawzia

Good indication of your social life.
With you, a prerequite to learning any language is learning some logical skills.

I have a fantastic social life, thank you! Unfortunately, not meeting that many Muslims of your variety, I don't get to laugh at this sort of stupidity often!

I have sufficient logical skills, you need to learn that while many gullible non Arabic speakers are going to enter your religion, many will bother to read translations & quit as well, & not work yourself up into a frenzy.
;D

Jews are being faulted for not applying the Taurat, but why should they apply Muhammad made Taurat?

They're capable of coming up with better stuff that what Muhammad can produce, thank you!

They don't need stonings, not even Muhammad's lashings-& they don't need to accept Muhammad's plagiarized re telling of their stories.

You don't need to give me points, just explain what I asked

Why should Muhammad plagiarize Jewish Scriptures, add his own two cents to those-then chastise the Jews for being like "donkeys with books" when they don't follow?

Jews won't & don't follow Muhammad's laws, they're fine with their Torah & whatever innovations to that they have come up with?

Why should Muhammad insult them, calling them "donkeys with books?"

Would you like it if someone plagiarized a story you wrote, added weird characters & incidents onto it, then claimed that this is the original story & you better follow it or be called a donkey or ass with books? ;D

This is offensive hate speech by Muhammad.

abdalquran

Yawn...

Once again EVIDENCE PLEASE

Where is proof that tauraat is an addition to the TORAH. Quran asserts COMPLETENESS over its ideology. It never refers its reader to another book.

Where is your EVIDENCE that Quran is faulting jews for not adhering literally to the 'torah' (which you quoted from).

I have a fantastic social life, thank you! Unfortunately, not meeting that many Muslims of your variety, I don't get to laugh at this sort of stupidity often!

I have sufficient logical skills, you need to learn that while many gullible non Arabic speakers are going to enter your religion, many will bother to read translations & quit as well, & not work yourself up into a frenzy.
;D

Jews are being faulted for not applying the Taurat, but why should they apply Muhammad made Taurat?

They're capable of coming up with better stuff that what Muhammad can produce, thank you!

They don't need stonings, not even Muhammad's lashings-& they don't need to accept Muhammad's plagiarized re telling of their stories.

You don't need to give me points, just explain what I asked

Why should Muhammad plagiarize Jewish Scriptures, add his own two cents to those-then chastise the Jews for being like "donkeys with books" when they don't follow?

Jews won't & don't follow Muhammad's laws, they're fine with their Torah & whatever innovations to that they have come up with?

Why should Muhammad insult them, calling them "donkeys with books?"

Would you like it if someone plagiarized a story you wrote, added weird characters & incidents onto it, then claimed that this is the original story & you better follow it or be called a donkey or ass with books? ;D

This is offensive hate speech by Muhammad.

Fawzia

Yawn...

Once again EVIDENCE PLEASE

Where is proof that tauraat is an addition to the TORAH. Quran asserts COMPLETENESS over its ideology. It never refers its reader to another book.

When did I say Tauraat is an addition in the sense of readers being required to read the Torah first?Sure it needed to assert COMPLETENESS & create a complete story. Otherwise, Muhammad again ran the risk of losing his importance.

Tauraat is not addition in the sense of being required to read the old books first, its an addition in the sense of Muhammad first plagiarizing from the Torah stories & then adding his own stuff onto it.

Plagiarisms simply try to pass themselves off as the true thing, obviously they won't refer people to the original first.

Please cool down first abdulquran, I realise its emotionally frustrating when someone leaves Islam brickwall, which makes you want to lash out at the person, but your anger won't achieve much.

Tauraat is plagiarism from Torah plus addition of Muhammad's creations which is presented in the Quran(no one is required to study Torah first) & Jews are required to accept Muhammad's plagiarism as their true scriptures or be called "donkeys"! D

Muhammad thought he could coerce Jews into accepting his versions & thus the Quran gradually, fortunately they didn't.

abdalquran

LOL, no proof eh? It's not atypical with you.

Here's your reasoning once again

You quote 62/5 which chastises the jews for not CARRYING (yahmiloo) the tauraat
According to you, this means that Quran wants them to follow the TORAH (from which you quoted from laws).

Is this correct or wrong? Upon your answer, we will proceed.

No running away this time, Fawzia.

When did I say Tauraat is an addition in the sense of readers being required to read the Torah first?Sure it needed to assert COMPLETENESS & create a complete story. Otherwise, Muhammad again ran the risk of losing his importance.

Tauraat is not addition in the sense of being required to read the old books first, its an addition in the sense of Muhammad first plagiarizing from the Torah stories & then adding his own stuff onto it.

Plagiarisms simply try to pass themselves off as the true thing, obviously they won't refer people to the original first.

Please cool down first abdulquran, I realise its emotionally frustrating when someone leaves Islam brickwall, which makes you want to lash out at the person, but your anger won't achieve much.

Tauraat is plagiarism from Torah plus addition of Muhammad's creations which is presented in the Quran(no one is required to study Torah first) & Jews are required to accept Muhammad's plagiarism as their true scriptures or be called "donkeys"! D

Muhammad thought he could coerce Jews into accepting his versions & thus the Quran gradually, fortunately they didn't.

Fawzia

No running away this time, Fawzia.

Where will we proceed abdul quran? Have you cooled down your frustrations at the apostate first?

Is it right to call people donkeys with books? ???

Is it right to insult a community in this way? ???

You've tried to show I'm a racist plenty of times, that was your earliest attempts to silence the apostate, with charges of racism.Then there were charges of ignorance of Arabic, etc, etc.I've seen a similar attitude from plenty of Muslims( however, in their double standards, they're delighted with the most ignorant of converts)

There are millions of Jews in the world.Isn't it racist of Muhammad or his Allah to call people "asses with books?"

Did I call any community asses & donkeys?

Why should Muhammad be allowed this sort of hate speech?

abdalquran

Why are you so afraid to answer, Fawzia? Worried that your b.s. will finally be exposed?

I repeat (and will keep repeating)

You quote 62/5 which chastises the jews for not CARRYING (yahmiloo) the tauraat
According to you, this means that Quran wants them to follow the TORAH (from which you quoted from laws).

Is this correct or wrong? Upon your answer, we will proceed