Why does the Quran matter?
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You still don't get it do you? There are different branches of Islam. You got Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Wahhabi, Sufi, Quranic etc. etc.
We on this forum are the peaceful kind - because the Quran tells us of peace and tolerance - it's right there, dude, in black and white. And we're followers of only the Quran.
If you revert your attention to the hadith though, you'll find all the things you've been criticizing. But the hadith is not the Quran and not everyone follows the hadith. I hope you get my point, if you don't, then I'm wondering what your purpose here really is. So you got your answer - you're preaching to the wrong choir.Please see below verses and tell me whether this is consistent with peace and tolerance.
Which actions are you referring to specifically. I know what you're going to answer - well figure out who is behind the actions of the specific occurrences you just thought about and look up what their faith is. Not just Islam. Nobody is just Muslim. Find out their specific beliefs, then find a forum full of people who believe in the same thing.
Your face should be red by now - because you're bitching IN THE WRONG FORUM. D
Look at the following examples of you`re quranic verses. To be fair, I have managed to find peace and tolerance in each verse, so maybe you are right. Is this what you believe in?
The Qur'an
Qur'an (2191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter ...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
By fighting until persecution is no more and religion is for Allah, there will definately be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (356) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Then they will be peaceful and tolerant.
Qur'an (474) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers and peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (489) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they) But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Seize and slay in the name of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (495) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. But of course it`s also about peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (533) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Obviously is you murder, crucify, cut off legs and imprison people, there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (812) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. It is obviously in the interest of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (815) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
More peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (839) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
And when such is achieved, there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (859-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Dismayed by peacefull and tolerant.
Qur'an (95) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. This is the best way to create more peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (914) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
Disgracefully peacefull and tolerance.
Qur'an (929) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
And once they are subdued there will be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (930) - "And the Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (938-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell. This is how you create peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (973) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith. But its ok because it`s a religion of peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (9123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
That way, when they are all dead or converted, there can be peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (2552) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against"
Definately peaceful and tolerant.
Qur'an (474) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
How are you going to make the prisoners once you smite their necks? Oh, its their wives and daughters you want as sex slaves, not them. Peace and tolerance.
Qur'an (4817) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."
I
m not sick or blind or lame so I guess youre religion is not going to be peaceful or tolerant to me is it?Qur'an (4829) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
Peace and tolerance towards Kafir?
I mean seriously you
re intelligent enough to use the internet, dont you feel its a bit wierd how a book of peace and tolerance has so much hatred and condones war so much? This is the real Quran which you believe in and not one with all the bad things, I suppose. Do you really believe that this is the word of God which calls for killing, hatred and conversion? If god wanted as all to be muslims, dont you think we would be? the answer is he doesnt, because god is silent. He let`s us live our lives the way we wish and we are only answerable when we face him. The quran does not preach this, it preaches the verses as seen above.Anyway, I don`t expect you to welcome me to the forum welcome After all
?O you who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?? (4144 )
Religion of peace and tolerance? yeah
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Humanist
Not everyone is born in a muslim family. Also if that be the case in any household you have no choice but to accept what you're parents feed you until your independent. That would make all parents mafias muslim background or not.
Islam isnt the mafia, if you leave you get killed according to who? Sunnis? Shias? Some innovated sect claiming to be muslim?
The reality of the world is there is no country following Islamic law. Just because in some countries people are subjugated doesnt mean it is Islamic. Also how do they know if youre muslim or not?
Only God can decide that, when you die and face him. No mad mullah or iman quoting a dubious book can give you that answer.
Great, I was looking for your answer because you asked what was wrong with a person who is virtuous and worships God to his understanding etc. if you cant define it then how can there be right or wrong, how can you think of morals? We will definitely be requited by God for the consequences of our deeds good or bad.
Your right. It
s probably better for the man to be given a light sentence and for the woman to be stoned to death or given 00s of lashes for being alone with a man/men who are not relatives . Surely that is logic, fairness and justice.Stoning to death isnt Islamic. Light sentence to man is crap talk. You should correct your erroneous understanding of islam.
The law is not perfect, nothing created by man, especially the koran, could possibly be perfect. That is why we have judicial reviews, elections and debates between reasonable men so that the law can be changed if it is discovered to be wrong. Today slavery is illegal where it wasn`t so 100 years ago. Slavery is wrong, completely at odds with human rights, yet the koran allows it, in whatever limited form you wish to argue, it is allowed, Therefore the koran is wrong and needs to be changed. So why would anybody live their lives by something which is obviously wrong yet cannot be changed? But why?
Why especially Quran why single it out.. Does Quran say slavery is allowed? if so please show me because obviously youre onto something so enlighten me.
And isn
t it great that people have the right to challenge and question these decisions? Isnt it great that people can protest the war and change the goverment in elections?You have the right to question and challenge islam now. I mean what is it youre doing right now? Arguing for the fun of it? Has the world formed humanists into sadists? Id like to think youre challenging the Quran but unfortunately your Quranic knowledge seems tainted with sectarian opinions.
I
m guessing you probably live in the land of the kafir and there are no islamic laws in place. Lucky you!! In reality, any muslim country in the world will restrict and limit the ability of its muslim people to do as they wish, within the laws as agreed by mankind, not imposed by an outdated book. So you cannot just perform an action if it is your choice because the crazies who run your religion, as guided by the book, won`t allow you too. In Muslim countries, you have no right except for what the uneducated and narrow minded nutcases who run the religion, as guided by the book, say you have. Try visiting a real muslim country, Pakistan for example and see for yourself what Islam really stands for.Where are you living?
What makes Pakistan so Islamic? Btw their laws arent guided by the book
I think you and most people on this website are looking at an ideal type of Islam and are not looking at the reality. Billions of people are living their lives in ignorance, fear and in a state of semi slavery because of this religion. Think of how women in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are taught to believe that they are less then men, less than humans and their minds are broken to believe this. How is your religion any different from communism or nazism?
Oh seriously this is pathetic. Billions of westerners are told you women are liberated They wanna get educated they can, want a career they can though theyre pay isnt = to men, want to be mothers they can. Women in the west are expected to be wonder women and do everything and this is the so called liberation? Oh then we have the other extreme of Saudis and some Afghans/Pakistanis who apparently teach women are less then men.
Do yourself a favour and work out the difference between islam and what isnt islam, islam doesnt teach this. Just because some bozos introduced ideologies and tried to indoctrinate people with it, it doesnt mean it is true nor islamic. every country in schools are indoctrinating children with ideologies. Does it mean theyre all ignorant/knowledgeable? Does it mean theyre all evil/good oh wait is this liberation? How could it be! indoctrinating children!
Youre telling me or rather implying to me islam is Pakistan, islam is Afghanistan islam is Saudi Arabia. Clearly you dunno what islam is. The truth of the matter is life isnt about idealism, life isnt about how great one country is and how crap another is.
Im not looking at an ideal type of islam, I am TELLING you what islam says about itself, not some idealist approach not some sugar coated version. The truth of the scripture not some ulema, scholar or whatever have you opinion/ doctrine.
If you knew islam, you wouldnt be questioning some so called likelihood with some oppressive regimes.
This site might be useful for you
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/but maybe you won't even look at it.. probably because you don't want to challenge your own thoughts of what you think islam is. i guess that's your choice. Some people say ignorance is bliss but who knows.
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Humanist
Not everyone is born in a muslim family. Also if that be the case in any household you have no choice but to accept what you're parents feed you until your independent. That would make all parents mafia?s muslim background or not.
Islam isn?t the mafia, if you leave you get killed according to who? Sunnis? Shias? Some innovated sect claiming to be muslim?
The reality of the world is there is no country following Islamic law. Just because in some countries people are subjugated doesn?t mean it is Islamic. Also how do they know if you?re muslim or not?
I think you need to get out and see the world a little bit. What you believe and how the muslim world actually is are 2 different things. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of muslims over 1500 year render your words silent.
Great, I was looking for your answer because you asked what was wrong with a person who is virtuous and worships God to his understanding etc. if you can?t define it then how can there be right or wrong, how can you think of morals? We will definitely be requited by God for the consequences of our deeds good or bad.
Its the madmen who run your religion who say what is right or wrong for it
s followers, in the real world of course. Which country do you live in? it might help a bit to know. Your "true Islam" which you preach here..if it was widely followed and believed, would end up like the Sunni and Shia sects which you look down on, because your religion is made to allow for abuse. Its like alcohol, you drink enough of it, your going to get drunk. You dont want to blame the alcohol which makes your drunk, instead blaming the poor human who cant help abusing it like its meant to be abused. Why?Stoning to death isn?t Islamic. Light sentence to man is crap talk. You should correct your erroneous understanding of islam.
Why especially Quran why single it out.. Does Quran say ?slavery is allowed?? if so please show me because obviously you?re onto something so enlighten me.I mean really. in the age of the internet you still can`t find it for yourself? Maybe this will help unwind the brainwash a little bit
Qur'an (3350) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
Qur'an (235-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."
Qur'an (424) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
Qur'an (869) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."
Qur'an (2432) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."
Qur'an (217 - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female."
Qur'an (1675) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah."
I think after the slavery quote, maybe it is you who needs to understand true Islam a little bit?
You have the right to question and challenge islam now. I mean what is it you?re doing right now? Arguing for the fun of it? Has the world formed humanists into sadists? I?d like to think you?re challenging the Quran but unfortunately your Quranic knowledge seems tainted with sectarian opinions.
Again I am challenging it because this is the internet and none of you are able to strike my head off and make me a youtube sensation. the freedom and liberty which we enjoy on the internet has nothing to do with Islam at all.
Oh seriously this is pathetic. Billions of westerners are told ?you women are liberated? They wanna get educated they can, want a career they can though they?re pay isn?t = to men, want to be mothers they can. Women in the west are expected to be wonder women and do everything and this is the so called liberation? Oh then we have the other extreme of Saudi?s and some Afghans/Pakistani?s who apparently teach women are less then men.
They have a choice. You don`t appreciate the choice because you take it for granted, unlike the millions of muslim women in the world who are unable to speak out for themselves.
Do yourself a favour and work out the difference between islam and what isn?t islam, islam doesn?t teach this. Just because some bozo?s introduced ideologies and tried to indoctrinate people with it, it doesn?t mean it is true nor islamic. every country in schools are indoctrinating children with ideologies. Does it mean they?re all ignorant/knowledgeable? Does it mean they?re all evil/good oh wait is this liberation? How could it be! indoctrinating children!
You?re telling me or rather implying to me islam is Pakistan, islam is Afghanistan islam is Saudi Arabia. Clearly you dunno what islam is. The truth of the matter is life isn?t about idealism, life isn?t about how great one country is and how crap another is.
I?m not looking at an ideal type of islam, I am TELLING you what islam says about itself, not some idealist approach not some sugar coated version. The truth of the scripture not some ulema, scholar or whatever have you opinion/ doctrine.
If you knew islam, you wouldn?t be questioning some so called likelihood with some oppressive regimes.
This site might be useful for you
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/but maybe you won't even look at it.. probably because you don't want to challenge your own thoughts of what you think islam is. i guess that's your choice. Some people say ignorance is bliss but who knows.
Actually I have looked at it but it still makes no sense in light of the verses I have quoted on this page and the last. Maybe you could help to reconcile these differences for me?
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The Qur'an
Qur'an (2191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter ...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
By fighting until persecution is no more and religion is for Allah, there will definately be peace and tolerance.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0252.gif
and engage in war with them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out from the place from where they had driven you out. And spreading irritation/disturbance/disquiet/intellectual deflections/ dismembering unity and harmony/liquefying the community is far greater/serious matter than individual murder. And you avoid war in the precincts of Sacred Mosque unless they attack you within it. For reason of attack, therefore you fight back. This is the response/return for disbelievers.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.192.gif
As a sequel to your retaliation, if they desist , you ignore
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.192.gif
since Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving/overlooking faults, the Merciful.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.193a.gif
And you fight with them conclusively till tumult no more remains there and the system prevails exclusively for Allah. For reason if they desist/end hostility, therefore/in consequence, no unrestrained attitude is allowed except upon those who are mischievous/distorters. -
Maybe your religion is not in sync with the Quran. Then why not end the religion because it
s obviously not working..its an abomination before God.This is the most astute thing you've said on this forum, agreed. The 'religion' as practiced by the masses is not in sync with the Quran. Many of us here are actively striving to 'end the religion' as you put it cause we agree with you that it is an 'abomination before God.' Bravo for your insight. It's a pity it had to be sandwiched in between volumes of misplaced vitriol and ad hominem attacks.
Peace.
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Humanist
I think you need to get out and see the world a little bit. What you believe and how the muslim world actually is are 2 different things Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of muslims over 1500 year render your words silent.
what the Muslim world is, isn?t what the ?muslim? world is. The Muslims today are not a true reflection of islam. Know that today what Muslims are, are basically upholding their socio-cultural context mixing it with religion and saying this is islam, over the 1500 years muslims/Muslims have done good. Maybe you only like to pick and choose historical bits.
Yeh actions speak louder than words, but the actions of Muslims doesn?t mean it is islam. So if a person is a sinner and claims to be muslim must that mean this is islam? Maybe you should reconsider reading the Quran and asking yourself what is islam and what isn?t.
Its the madmen who run your religion who say what is right or wrong for it
s followers, in the real world of course. Which country do you live in? it might help a bit to know. Your "true Islam" which you preach here..if it was widely followed and believed, would end up like the Sunni and Shia sects which you look down on, because your religion is made to allow for abuse. Its like alcohol, you drink enough of it, your going to get drunk. You dont want to blame the alcohol which makes your drunk, instead blaming the poor human who cant help abusing it like its meant to be abused. Why?Your analogy don?t make sense. The madmen are upheld by sheep not thinkers. What difference does it make what country I live in? I live in Australia, where do you live?
No it won?t end up like Sunni and Shia sect why would it? Made to allow for abuse? Can you be specific in such claims.
The human who is abusing the alcohol is at fault. Why blame alcohol? It?s your choice to consume it. Even with alcohol there is benefit in it, over consumption can cause drunkenness and that?s when human error/desire/wish/want whatever comes in. if they can?t help abusing it, it means they need help. A person who really is concerned for humanity would help.
Where?s the abuse in my thought?
The verses of ?slavery? you mentioned
3350, 235-6, 424, 869, 2432, 2178, 1675Because you?re so smart and apparently understand Quran which word in 3350, 236, 424 means slavery?
Oh no 2178 recognised ?slavery? existed.
And 1675 is a parable, but wait you said ?slavery is allowed? I didn?t see any verses alluding to what you said.
So maybe you should reconsider what the true islam is.
Again I am challenging it because this is the internet and none of you are able to strike my head off and make me a youtube sensation. the freedom and liberty which we enjoy on the internet has nothing to do with Islam at all.
Ok maybe you?re living in some country that subjugates how you live. So maybe you were raised Muslim you seem to give that implication. Tell me where it says ?strike the head of someone who apostates from islam?. If people do things in the name of Islam it doesn?t mean it is islam. Read the scripture and you will know their acts have nothing to do with islam. But you don?t want to read the scripture you want to pick and choose what you think you know islam is.
They have a choice. You don`t appreciate the choice because you take it for granted, unlike the millions of muslim women in the world who are unable to speak out for themselves.
They have choice yet they are suffering from a system. Muslim women around the world have choices. Some have better opportunities than others due to the socio-economic status of their country or their homes. In life everyone has different opportunities.
Actually I have looked at it but it still makes no sense in light of the verses I have quoted on this page and the last. Maybe you could help to reconcile these differences for me?
How about you show me what part of the site doesn?t make sense with the topics of verses you have quoted. Then we can discuss.
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Dear Humanist thanks for trying to wake up deep sleepers of their long slumber. However, despite all effort to show them with examples from Quran; that there is fundamental misunderstanding, misconception and wrong translations. I am yet unable to wake a single one up from his/her slumber. It is just like playing a flute in front of a black buffalo.
May Rabb still bless us?
Badar
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Sura (855) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Sura (4829) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
Sura (930) - And the Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!
Sura (812) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness
Sura (533) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement
As for your OS analogy, terrible. Just terrible. maybe you better stick to the scripture. You can prove that you need an OS because you won`t be able to turn on the PC. There is no way you can prove that humans need your religion. After all, humans have been around for 100,000 years and only 1,500 of them with this corruption on them.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6113-114
"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 668
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing
Quran on Justice
"We sent aforetime our messengers with clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance, that men may stand forth in Justice." .
"O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."
"O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just that is next to Piety and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."
"Allah doth command you to render back your Trusts to those to whom they are due; and when ye judge between man and man, that ye judge with justice verily how excellent is the teaching which He gives you! For Allah is He Who hears and sees all things."
O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into races and tribes, so that you may identify one another. Surely the noblest of you, in Allah?s sight, is the one who is most pious of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Hujurat) 49-13
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (569).
- If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them. (4124)
As far as verse 5.33 its talking about the crime of murder and before it it says
5.27-34 Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong." The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets- On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
I think most people think waging war here means fighting. I have said before the Quran does not use the term "harb" as a verb for fighting, it uses "qital". here war could mean war on poverty or war on drugs, meaning those who oppose what the prophets teached and commit murder. It also says "banishment from community" as a form of punishment for the first crime of mankind, the crime of murder, which i interpreted as a form of life imprisonment.
I have wrote an article about this when I said the Quran does not oppose abolishing the death penalty for murder crimes. It looks to me you pick up some selected verses. The Quran never said to fight those who are disbelievers it said
As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 608-9
Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, Our Lord is God. 2239-40
As far as why God punishes the disbelievers in Him, thats not the Quran's job to ask that question. Neither is it our job. We didn't choose to exist, we exist because God created us and He determines whats acceptable or not. Anyways the Quran says
18.49. And the Book will be placed, and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" They will find all that they did, placed before them And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.
2.281. And fear the Day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.
And then says
99.6-8 On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out, to be shown the deeds that they (had done). Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
You need to understand the Quran from those who take it as their deen and not those who take their deen from somewhere else(Sunni/Shia) or those who want to distort its meaning for their own agenda(Islam bashers).
Quran is peace!
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Looks like Bigmo just answered your questions, Humanist.
No he hasn
t. All he has done is quote verses which are contrary to the verses which I quoted, without addressing the central issue. Why do some verses preach war, hatred and violence while some show peace and co existance with the kafir? Why does one part contradict the other? Has this thought ever crossed your mind when reading the quran? Why is it so inconsistent and contradictory? Hes trying to prove the authenticity and integrity of verses by contradicting my verses with his verses and you think he`s given an answer? The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!This book has such contradictions because it was written by a man from his own delusions and thoughts. Whether the verses spoke of war or peace depended on what side of the bed the writer woke up on or how good the slave girl was the previous night. You believe that the quran contains the words of God? This is madness! Was God confused as to what his actual message would be? There is no message from God in this book. Of course there are some verses which speak of peace and tolerance, probably plagarised from the Torah and the Bible. Or probably written after the Kafir had been conquered and most of the population had been converted, therefore there was less need for preaching conquest. Again, all this proves is that the Quran is based on the circumstances of the time, when the prophet needed peace or war, the quran was written accordingly. Without doubt this is the work of man for if God was truly to give a message, it would be a message for the ages and not just for that particular epoch. Of course once the religion had taken hold it was never going to let go and todate there hasn
t been a force powerful enough to remove it. Read some Marx for a better understanding of how your religion like any other ideology of power would never give up its position without sufficient force to remove it. It`s time to call and end to this madness and accept that man has enough geniune knowledge to carry on without false teachings to mislead us. -
The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!
I would agree with the above line, and I will explain why.
I see where the humanist is coming from as I was getting to the same point when I looked at the pathetic conditions of the world caused by the religious fanatism of all religions, no matter which religion you look at. Every so called religious group has caused havoc on the earth, whenever, they had a chance. The question then is whether the God is teaching them the tyranny (with few good things in between) or whether the tyranny is the creation of human mind to become the most powerful over all other.When I read Qur'Aan, ( things written under the Arabic text ) I did not see as to how it could create a difference for the humanity. But then I realized that so called Muslims, for the first few hundred years had done more for human rights, scientific developments, education and tolerance that even the Jews and other oppressed would seek Muslims for peace and sanctuary from the tyranny of any one. It was giving the message of human liberty.
Then some thing changed. And it remains changed. The same verses were being interpreted as teaching intolerance, war, and killing of all those who would not give into the doctrines of the powerful. This clearly was a shift. This has been brought to attention by many a scholars, but the powerful have prevailed in their interpretation, of not only the Qur'Aan, but have added and continue to add their thought process, claiming it either as the words of the Prophet, or claiming it as otherwise well thought out Ijtihad. When we look at the text of the Qur'Aan we do not find most of it, although, it has become as important as Qur'Aan itself.
Recent internet explosion of knowledge, has given us a tool, to go back into the time, and to try to analyze, as to what may have been said by the people of the past. We can even interpret, thousands of year old languages now, but we refuse to analyzy the words of Qur'Aan. We rather like to stay on the "interpretation" alone, which could be anything. Because of this insistence on "interpretation" alone, even the Quranist movements have failed to have an impact on the human minds, except for those who want to believe in it.
Recent attempts to utilize all tools of decoding the words, although in its infancy, is showing a tremendous message, irrespective of the belief, whether it was dictated by our Creator or whether it was intuition to the mind of the Messanger from our Creator. I recently read the translation on this forum for Chapter 114 (Al Naas) and also at www.servantofthelight.com, where other translations, ( or so to say decoding of the Arabic script) are being attempted, and it is clear to see as to what the confusion is all about.
Instead of arguing as to who is right or wrong, or arguing as to how this Book came into being, can we join hands as a team such as those attempting to decode everything on the linguistic basis, without our own prejudices, to see as to what it was that created the biggest humanity charter, and scintific development then. Can it be just an exploratory attempt, rather than insisting on one own's undersanding as being correct. The purpose is not to prove or disprove anything. It is to arrive at the most correct decoding, so people can choose their own path intelligently, rather than being forced like today, into blind belief, and being penalised for not believing, like every religion insists or insisted on in the past. This is what our Creator wants us to do as well. Those who will choose the correct path will have a blissful life and those who dont, will be doomed for ever.
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Humanist
what the Muslim world is, isn?t what the ?muslim? world is. The Muslims today are not a true reflection of islam. Know that today what Muslims are, are basically upholding their socio-cultural context mixing it with religion and saying this is islam, over the 1500 years muslims/Muslims have done good. Maybe you only like to pick and choose historical bits.
Really, does that make any sense? Islam itself is derived from Arabic socio-cultural elements, because it`s inventor was also steeped in the culture. Clearly, this is the work of man, not God. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Only religions like Islam and ideologies like communism and nazism (Islam is clearly in good company) are capable of making good people do bad things.
They have choice yet they are suffering from a system. Muslim women around the world have choices. Some have better opportunities than others due to the socio-economic status of their country or their homes. In life everyone has different opportunities.
Seriously, you need to see the world a bit more. Socio economic status has nothing to do with how Saudi women live. Why don`t you take a trip down to Saudi Arabia wearing a skirt and blouse like you are allowed to wear now and see how it goes? Lets see what your choices are then.
I understand now what this website is all about. With all that has happened especially since 9/11 and with heavy scrutiny by the media, Islam is under pressure worldwide. You can say what you want about unfair or biased media coverage, the reality is that Islam is being shown up as the intolerant, backward and shallow ideology that it is. There is a worldwide reaction against Islam by the world, for the acts of the followers of Islam is driven by the fact that Islam is an extremist religion. It is extremist because it allows no compromise, no debate, no respect for those who do not follow its ways, and no freedom for those that do. You can say what you want about real Islam, what the world sees in every country which has muslims is the reality. You live in Australia, and the average Australian doesn`t want you there because of what you represent. To them, you spending time on this website is driving you closer to the day when you will blow up an Australian school or airliner. This is the reality of what is happening in the world. All this talk of true Islam cannot change what is true to the victims of 9/11 and their families, or the millions around the world who are under threat from Islamic extremism. Islam brings nothing to countries and societies in the modern world, nothing. Name me one moderate Islamic country and I will point out the problems which Islam causes. Islam involves the implementation of Shariah law, which is rejected by all right thinking humans (we hate it and all it stands for) yet the Muslims have no concern for what us non Muslims want. Islam is a selfish and arrogant religion as can be seen from the Quran. You read it before, now read it again. Why is the Quran so concerned about the unbelievers and spends so much time talking about them? there seems to be an awful lot of scripture related to unbelievers compared to the Bible.
I digress. Back to the first part. You have seen Islam being demonised around the world and desperately search for answers to defend your religion. You feel the eyes of the world on you with disdain, fear and disgust and you feel the world just doesn
t understand it. If they did, surely they would not behave in such a way. From Australia to China to the USA, there is a universal rejection of Islam and all it stands for. You believe that this is unfair and you search for ways to defend it. Unlike others of your race (you must be either an immigrant or descended of immigrants from muslim countries) who have rejected the religion to fit in better to secular australian society, you have stronger roots in your culture and Islam is a strong part of your culture (notice Islam is part of your culture, not the other way around as culture predates Islam). You feel there is a certain level of animosity towards your religion and therefore you from secular australians who want nothing to do with your religion and want it out of Australia immediately. Why do they hate your religion and not the Indian hindhus, chinese/vietnamese buddhists, black rastas? If they do hate them, its for their skin color and not their religion, unlike yours. You now spend your time finding ways to prove that your religion and therefore you have been misrepresented by hijackers who have taken over the religion and its ideals. You want to prove that your religion and therefore you are actually peaceful and tolerant. Using the logical mind you possess (only because you were fortunate enough to grow up in a western secular society which allows and encourages women to think for themselves) you believe that you can educate other muslims to think like you, to be like you. If all muslims were like you, surely the worlds muslim population would be saved and better able to integrate. Which would allow you to settle in better to australian society.What you fail to understand is that you are unique in Islam. You are a muslim yet you are brought up in a secular, modern society which owes its status to science, modernity, logic, reason, compromise and freedom which could never exist under Islam they way it does in Australia. The society which you are brought up in owes nothing to Islam and indeed defends it
s freedom from Islam every day. These ideals mentioned earlier may exist in a reduced form under Islam, but the degree to which you enjoy these ideals as an Australian is unheard of under Islam and has never been enjoyed by any muslim living in any muslim country, EVER since the days of the prophet. You believe that people have the right to choose and the freedom to do as they please as this is the right which you enjoy currently, not realising that these ideals are purely Australian and have nothing to do with Islam. You see Islam as being free and beautiful as you live in a free and beautiful society where all are able to enjoy this, even muslims. You have mistaken the joys of your life as given by the freedoms of living in a 1st world secular society as being attributable to Islam, not knowing that under Islam you could never have this. As you enjoy the freedoms of Australia, remember that the quran wants to convert the country which shelters you and allows you to be who you wish to be. And with that conversion will come the end of reason, freedom and tolerance beyond what is allowed by the quran and the crazies who draw their power from it, like the cockroaches who rule Saudi, Pakistan, Syria and all the other muslim countries around the world.All of you see the chaos, murder and hatred brought by muslims around the world over the ages and seek to distance yourself from this by arguing that your religion is different to this. You try to justify Islam
s existance as you have progressed too far, intellectually you are too developed to just believe that what the madmen are doing is right like the rest of the muslims around the world do. So you try and search for reasons how this could happen and desperate as you are, attempt to justify it as being due to the religion being hijacked and the quran not being translated properly. I see list upon list of misconceptions of Islam, progressive Islam etc. All seeking to push the blame elsewhere which is of course the human thing to do. Blame someone/something else! Yet how can it be misinterpreted after 1500 years? During this time man has been to the highest mountains, created miracles of science the likes of which were unimaginable 1500 years ago, mapped the human genome, discovered the secrets of evolution, walked on the moon and discovered algorithms which power computers. How can mankind not be able to interpret a book written 1500 years ago? Think about it. Its not rocket science after all its just...well verses. Lines and lines of rambling put into writing. What is that compared to understanding DNA? Compared to plotting a route to the moon for a rocket? Astrophysics? Why is the quran misinterpreted hmm While everything else is interpreted properly? could it be that its not possible to make sense out of it in any way? The bible has been properly interpreted, so too the torah, the writings of buddha, hindhu holy manuscripts, confucianism, all of which predate islam face no such problems. Why does your lag behind? Is it because its the worst one of all? By the way, this is what the whole world(not the brainwashed part) believes.So why hold on to the religion, why do you still believe? It`s because it has such a hold on you that you feel that you would suffocate without it. like the bubble boy, you believe that leaving the bubble will kill you , when in reality you have no reason to fear it as you can and will live better without it. How can it be a religion of peace when it was spread by the sword? There is no misconception, no wrong interpretation. We the citizens of the world have rejected this religion while affirming the freedom of all humans to believe in whatever they choose. What will you do?
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No one can wipe out religion from the minds of humans. It is how it has been for ever. Bowing to the powerful is how it started and it is how it is continued.
So the attempt to talk people out of religion is almost an implossible task.So please read my post again, the one posted just above the last post here by the humanist. The only way to show them light would be then to show them light, as I have eluded to above, rather than trying to talk the whole world out of it. Even Prophets could not talk people out of anything , except to show them the light. Qur'Aan is all about it, as is being shown by the decoding in process as eluded in my post above. If in the end it shows no light, then just leave it. But if it shows light, as it did centuries ago, by creating biggest human liberty charter, and quest for scientific knowledge, then the magic is on its way again.
So go ahead and read my post again and see what you all think.
Peace
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Humanist
Really, does that make any sense? Islam itself is derived from Arabic socio-cultural elements, because it`s inventor was also steeped in the culture. Clearly, this is the work of man, not God. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Only religions like Islam and ideologies like communism and nazism (Islam is clearly in good company) are capable of making good people do bad things.
If you read the Quran you would know Abraham is a ?muslim? today we have many Muslims. It?s a noun a descriptive noun, whereas the Arabic word muslim describes much more than that.
So what it means basically is a Muslim is someone, who says they follow Quran, who also attaches cultural baggage and interpretations and embeds it with islam. A muslim is different, a muslim is like Ibrahim one who submits to God, that doesn't put cultural baggage interpretations above.
Clearly you feel islam is so terrible.. so tell me, what are we doing that are bad things? Obviously you know otherwise you wouldn?t make a claim. So do share.
Seriously, you need to see the world a bit more. Socio economic status has nothing to do with how Saudi women live. Why don`t you take a trip down to Saudi Arabia wearing a skirt and blouse like you are allowed to wear now and see how it goes? Lets see what your choices are then.
Who said Saudi was Islamic? Go look up the name Saudi and its origin then tell me this crap. Just because their country follows rules that are not Islamic while claiming to be Islamic, doesn?t mean they are.
I understand now what this website is all about. With all that has happened especially since 9/11 and with heavy scrutiny by the media, Islam is under pressure worldwide. You can say what you want about unfair or biased media coverage, the reality is that Islam is being shown up as the intolerant, backward and shallow ideology that it is. There is a worldwide reaction against Islam by the world, for the acts of the followers of Islam is driven by the fact that Islam is an extremist religion. It is extremist because it allows no compromise, no debate, no respect for those who do not follow its ways, and no freedom for those that do.
No actually you don?t understand, 9/11 has nothing to do with our belief. it existed way before you were born. I don?t care about media coverage. Go read world history and see who is unfair who is intolerant, who is backward. What is so shallow in our ideology. Seriously you accept things you don?t even know are facts!
You can say what you want about real Islam, what the world sees in every country which has muslims is the reality. You live in Australia, and the average Australian doesn`t want you there because of what you represent. To them, you spending time on this website is driving you closer to the day when you will blow up an Australian school or airliner. This is the reality of what is happening in the world. All this talk of true Islam cannot change what is true to the victims of 9/11 and their families, or the millions around the world who are under threat from Islamic extremism.
Oh sorry you know reality, some mental lunatics who claim to be muslims who do things against islam simply because they have a beard shout some Arabic words ?Oh no!! look at islam!!?
I?m a human who likes to live, why the hell would I want to blow myself up? that's not even islamic! You?re ideologies is what is demented, intolerant and backward. I?ll tell you why because you don?t consider what is true all you consider is minority extremists.. oh wait that must mean they are muslim! And that must mean they are islam!!
You don?t even read facts, you don?t read the text. And when you do you make errors and you don?t even think about it. You know why, you have no interests in it. You just have a biased, stereotypical image of what you think a muslim is and you can?t fathom the fact that you have it wrong. It?s like how can it be wrong nah. Just ignore the info she says and argue another point which is also weak in it?s claim.
Islam brings nothing to countries and societies in the modern world, nothing. Name me one moderate Islamic country and I will point out the problems which Islam causes. Islam involves the implementation of Shariah law, which is rejected by all right thinking humans (we hate it and all it stands for) yet the Muslims have no concern for what us non Muslims want. Islam is a selfish and arrogant religion as can be seen from the Quran. You read it before, now read it again. Why is the Quran so concerned about the unbelievers and spends so much time talking about them? there seems to be an awful lot of scripture related to unbelievers compared to the Bible.
After you name me one ?Islamic? country that follows islam to the truth I?ll give you your answer. If you know Islamic history you?d know islam brought a lot to society today. You can choose to be ignorant and blatantly hateful. It just further shows your arrogance and ignorance.
Islam involves the implementation of shariah law? Do show me where it says that? Also what is the shariah law, do you even know what it says?
What do you non muslims want? To eradicate muslims kill them and their origins? Some great tolerance you have.
Did you know the Quran talks about ?disbelief? to the believers, as in the believers be mindful of their deeds. While you might think the content is all about you for being non muslims, the word used isn?t simply translated as ?unbelievers? the word kufr is much more than disbelief and muslims need to be aware of it because even the prophets were inspired to be aware of it, such as Solomon. You can be grateful or ungrateful, and ungratefulness is a form of kufr. But obviously you think it?s all about you!
So obviously you take the text and think $#@E! why the hell is this talking to me? How this! and how that! Yet you haven?t even grasped what the book is saying. You?re so narrow minded that you just stick to your bias understanding. Quran spends much more time about doing good, maybe you should re-read it with an open mind.
I digress. Back to the first part. You have seen Islam being demonised around the world and desperately search for answers to defend your religion. You feel the eyes of the world on you with disdain, fear and disgust and you feel the world just doesn`t understand it. If they did, surely they would not behave in such a way. From Australia to China to the USA, there is a universal rejection of Islam and all it stands for.
There has been universal acceptance also. People dunno what islam stands for, but wait you do? So tell me.
Every single person has a certain bias, even prejudice. It?s when they fail to recognise what is truth from falsehood they make big error. People don?t automatically hate me. Islam is a choice, just like people have choice to be Hindu?s, Christians, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists etc. That?s every human given right.
I?m not trying to prove my religion, why should I? Islam has been misrepresented and you seem to only follow the misrepresented view. You said
Using the logical mind you possess (only because you were fortunate enough to grow up in a western secular society which allows and encourages women to think for themselves) you believe that you can educate other muslims to think like you, to be like you. If all muslims were like you, surely the world`s muslim population would be saved and better able to integrate. Which would allow you to settle in better to australian society.
Logic doesn?t come inherited because of being in a western society. So if Muslims were like me you?re saying I?m not so bad as a muslim? If that be the case why the big prejudice?
Also integration? We?re all integrated but to force assimilation is wrong. You make out as if muslims or so backward that they can?t even be in a society.
What you fail to understand is that you are unique in Islam. You are a muslim yet you are brought up in a secular, modern society which owes its status to science, modernity, logic, reason, compromise and freedom which could never exist under Islam they way it does in Australia.
No you fail to understand what islam is and my beliefs are not dominant in my country in a "secular modern society'. Science, logic etc existed way before. Look you?re so arrogant I can?t believe how much you have delved in your arrogance just go look at your number system; base ten then tell me muslims have no influence to society today. You are clearly so hateful you can?t see beyond your own mind.
The ideas I have are not purely Australian, what a stupid thing to say. You fail to recognise how women were treated in western societies a 100 years ago. For some people change happens quicker than others. Islamic ideologies existed before the Quran. Muslims accept and recognise that God sent scriptures before. Quran is confirming the truth of what the unmindful have forgotten, what makes it unique is that it is protected. Islam existed before Quran but you fail to comprehend what islam is! You jus keep going on about religion.
The joys and freedom area human given right Quran recognises this you don?t because you have some comprehension problems.
The rulers in countries you mention are pathetic losers. They help themselves and the superpowers before they help their own country because they are tyrants. They?re like Pharaoh and you wonder why their countries are falling apart, why they?re ?backward?. How can you expect a country to prosper if their own government is drawing them back and demeaning them? And no their governments do not represent Islam.
All of you see the chaos, murder and hatred brought by muslims around the world over the ages and seek to distance yourself from this by arguing that your religion is different to this. You try to justify Islam`s existance as you have progressed too far, intellectually you are too developed to just believe that what the madmen are doing is right like the rest of the muslims around the world do.
Don?t put beliefs in me which do not exist. Where did I say ?madman are doing right things?. Chaos existed before Muslims existed. You?re problem is you blame muslims for your problems when you?re problems have nothing to do with it.
So you try and search for reasons how this could happen and desperate as you are, attempt to justify it as being due to the religion being hijacked and the quran not being translated properly. I see list upon list of misconceptions of Islam, progressive Islam etc. All seeking to push the blame elsewhere which is of course the human thing to do. Blame someone/something else! Yet how can it be misinterpreted after 1500 years?
Blame? Look mate 1500 years ago people were arguing and today they still argue. Misconceptions have been argued before. When people get in power they can distort things. Like the countries you mentioned they distort their people their ideologies with their power.
Nothing I believe is new, my beliefs have been heard of before, 1500 years ago.
How can mankind not be able to interpret a book written 1500 years ago?
I?ll tell you why, because secterians have distorted the meaning because they have authority today because of number and power. So you have a book that isn?t interpreted justly. If you know the sectarian system of how things work you?d understand how the distort is hard to break.
I could give you an example but would you take me seriously? I really honestly doubt it. So I?m thinking why should I bother. If you genuinely want to know then I?ll tell you. but you seem to just ignore what i say act on defence not really take in what i am saying.
Why does your lag behind? Is it because it`s the worst one of all? By the way, this is what the whole world(not the brainwashed part) believes.
Classical Arabic and Arabic we know today are two different things. Like I said people in power distort things. It?s not lagged behind nor the worst of all, what makes it the worst? besides it?s there for people who ponder. Its not made for scholars to interpret it?s for us to take. So if you genuinely want the message you would seek out a way to understand it. Rather than relying on an interpreted meaning based on some guys opinion.
You?re a contradiction.
We the citizens of the world have rejected this religion while affirming the freedom of all humans to believe in whatever they choose. What will you do?
If ALL humans have the freedom to believe in whatever they choose you wouldn?t be so up tight about my beliefs of Quran.
I don?t follow religion, I take Quran as a guide just like you might take some scholarly opinion in a matter as a guide and I am given the God given right, to take this guide or to leave it. That right was given to me in the Quran, not by you or your so called western current ideologies. Quran gave me that right, if people control and subjugate others in the name of islam, their doing injustices by their guide and they will be requited with consequences of their actions.
You can stay in your belief you can choose to be ignorant, arrogant or whatever it is you want, that?s your right and frankly I don?t care because it doesn?t affect me. When it does affect me, when you do injustice by me, that?s something different all together.
So long as you realise your hatred and malice is totally demented and linked with other than islam. So long as you don?t hassle me as I don?t hassle you what is the problem? You can be whatever you want.
BTW you never answered me, where do you live?
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No he hasn
t. All he has done is quote verses which are contrary to the verses which I quoted, without addressing the central issue. Why do some verses preach war, hatred and violence while some show peace and co existance with the kafir? Why does one part contradict the other? Has this thought ever crossed your mind when reading the quran? Why is it so inconsistent and contradictory? Hes trying to prove the authenticity and integrity of verses by contradicting my verses with his verses and you think he`s given an answer? The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!This book has such contradictions because it was written by a man from his own delusions and thoughts. Whether the verses spoke of war or peace depended on what side of the bed the writer woke up on or how good the slave girl was the previous night. You believe that the quran contains the words of God? This is madness! Was God confused as to what his actual message would be? There is no message from God in this book. Of course there are some verses which speak of peace and tolerance, probably plagarised from the Torah and the Bible. Or probably written after the Kafir had been conquered and most of the population had been converted, therefore there was less need for preaching conquest. Again, all this proves is that the Quran is based on the circumstances of the time, when the prophet needed peace or war, the quran was written accordingly. Without doubt this is the work of man for if God was truly to give a message, it would be a message for the ages and not just for that particular epoch. Of course once the religion had taken hold it was never going to let go and todate there hasn
t been a force powerful enough to remove it. Read some Marx for a better understanding of how your religion like any other ideology of power would never give up its position without sufficient force to remove it. It`s time to call and end to this madness and accept that man has enough geniune knowledge to carry on without false teachings to mislead us.First of all there is nothing called conquest in the Quran.
Second where does it say fight the disbelievers? There is no such verses.
Third it seems to me you already made up your mind about what the Quran says without actualling studying it.
I know that you will quote PART of verse 9-5 without quoting the end of it. Or you will quote verse 9-28 without looking at to whom it was refering to and thats about it. I have dealt with this issue maybe a hundred times with many non Muslims and with Sunnis.
There are no verses that tells anyone to fight people because they disbelieved. There are verses that say fight those who are fighting you and if they cease then you also cease. Its also funny how you said that the "peaceful" verses were plagiarized from the Torah. You obviously have not read the Torah. So there is a huge ignorance on your part.
There are verses that says God will punish and take revenge on the disbelievers as what happened to the people of Lot and Noah and Saleh and Hud. God says he will punish the disbelievers in this world and the hereafter. Thats the only part you were correct in. But as far as we humans are concerned the Quran makes it very clear we only fight those who fight us for our faith. We don't fight anayone for their faith. God punishes, not humans.
The Quran makes it this crystal clear
18.29-31 Say, "The truth is from your Lord" Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it) for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on! As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed. For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!
You pick your choice. Its your choice, not ours or anybody else.
Quran is peace!
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ok bro lets get down to it. There are words and there are actions. not everything is in the quran for example how to use the toilet, how to eat with your mouth closed, etc. These are seen in the actions of the followers and leaders of the religion. The prophet himself was a conquerer. He did not peacefully spread his religion in the way jesus did, over hundreds of years. Within 20 years, most of the middle east had been conquered, slaughtered or converted. This is the truth and no amount of revisionism on your part can change that. islam was brought into this world not through noble sacrifice like christianity or suffering like the buddha, it was brought it with fire and the sword. You can say it
s not in the quran (it blatantly is) but the prophet himself kept kafirs wives and children as his own sex slaves, unless further revisionism is going to say he didn`t.You`re interpretation is clouded by the need to justify you religion as peaceful and tolerant as a result of global reaction against it. Who is to say your interpretation is more correct that Osama bin laden or any one of the ayatollahs? is your scripture that clear that there can be no doubt? Perhaps it is you who is wrong and the madmen who have spent lifetimes studying and interpreting it who are correct? The world has caught up with this religion and book and has found out for themselves. even the dutch who would tolerate all kinds of warped practices and are among the most permissive people in the world have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Even the swiss who are permanently neutral and accept nazi gold have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Its time for all right thinking people to consider the facts and reevaluate their position. at the very least, understand why people like me reject what you preach, for i can easily understand your position. i was once roman catholic and brainwashed almost as bad as you are.
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ok bro lets get down to it. There are words and there are actions. not everything is in the quran for example how to use the toilet, how to eat with your mouth closed, etc. These are seen in the actions of the followers and leaders of the religion. The prophet himself was a conquerer. He did not peacefully spread his religion in the way jesus did, over hundreds of years. Within 20 years, most of the middle east had been conquered, slaughtered or converted. This is the truth and no amount of revisionism on your part can change that. islam was brought into this world not through noble sacrifice like christianity or suffering like the buddha, it was brought it with fire and the sword. You can say it
s not in the quran (it blatantly is) but the prophet himself kept kafirs wives and children as his own sex slaves, unless further revisionism is going to say he didn`t.You`re interpretation is clouded by the need to justify you religion as peaceful and tolerant as a result of global reaction against it. Who is to say your interpretation is more correct that Osama bin laden or any one of the ayatollahs? is your scripture that clear that there can be no doubt? Perhaps it is you who is wrong and the madmen who have spent lifetimes studying and interpreting it who are correct? The world has caught up with this religion and book and has found out for themselves. even the dutch who would tolerate all kinds of warped practices and are among the most permissive people in the world have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Even the swiss who are permanently neutral and accept nazi gold have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Its time for all right thinking people to consider the facts and reevaluate their position. at the very least, understand why people like me reject what you preach, for i can easily understand your position. i was once roman catholic and brainwashed almost as bad as you are.
Look, what does the Quran has to do with globilization? The Quran came down 14 centuries ago. I am just stating what the Quran says which often is not what Sunnism and Shiasm preach and most Muslims fall under these two categories like most jews follow the Pharisaic Judaism that Jesus fought against and most Christians follow the Trintarian Christianity followed by the Catholic and Protestant sect. So to me I don't really see the difference here. One left the OT for their own traditions(read Mark 7), the other introduced a theology in the 3rd century of Christianity known as the Trinity and made Jesus divine, the third followed the Jews way and tossed the Quran behind their backs and followed their own tradition.
Strange thing about all this is Western Academicians themselves agree with the fabrication of Sunnism and Shiasm. But after 9-11 the West suddenly started giving authority to Sunnism and Shiasm and their traditions because it is easier to attack and criticize than the Quran.
So let the Western nations do some soul searching THEN go the Muslims and lecture them. Meanwhile no Muslims will pay attention to you because of your lack of credibility. Thats why the Bin Laden's are operating unabated. The Muslims follow the same Islam as he does, so they can't refute and tell him what his doing is wrong. On the other side the West is more bloodier than Bin Laden and so they can't tell him what your doing is wrong. So the Bin Laden's are going nowehere.
But I can go to Bin Laden and tell him to his face "what your doing is not Islam". There is nothing Bin Laden can do to refute me. Nothing.
Finally, no I don't believe Muhammad led any conquest. Thats not his job description in the Quran. I already told you what his job description and job responsibility are. He is a preacher and not a soldier. If he fought its because the pagans forced him to. The same pagans who brought us the Islamic Sects. The Pagans of Mecca.
His companions, maybe. I don't have credible historic information and the companions era is post Quranic. Anyways their era don't carry any authority for the Quranist because they are post Quranic.
Quran is peace and the choice of faith or not is yours. Muhamad was given the Quran to warn the disbelievrs of God's punishment in this world and hereafter and bring the good news to the believers of God of the God has in store for them in this life and the hereafter.
And what do you know about the day of Judgement? Thats a major Quranic quotation.
You and only you make that choice.
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Look, what does the Quran has to do with globilization? The Quran came down 14 centuries ago. I am just stating what the Quran says which often is not what Sunnism and Shiasm preach and most Muslims fall under these two categories like most jews follow the Pharisaic Judaism that Jesus fought against and most Christians follow the Trintarian Christianity followed by the Catholic and Protestant sect. So to me I don't really see the difference here. One left the OT for their own traditions(read Mark 7), the other introduced a theology in the 3rd century of Christianity known as the Trinity and made Jesus divine, the third followed the Jews way and tossed the Quran behind their backs and followed their own tradition.
What does this have to do with anything? Who cares really about the Christians? Christianity today is unrecognisable from the spider which sucked on the soul of humanity hundreds of years ago. Christianity has been defeated by the renaissance and revolutions througout Europe which created a change in how the church operates. There is clear separation between church and state and no state would act based on scripture as right thinking members of society would never allow it. That`s what happens when science and evolution uncover fantasy tales for what they are, fantasy. The quran is due for a renaissance and until it comes ignorance and the dark ages will continue throughout the muslim world. The only free muslims are those who live in kafir countries.
Strange thing about all this is Western Academicians themselves agree with the fabrication of Sunnism and Shiasm. But after 9-11 the West suddenly started giving authority to Sunnism and Shiasm and their traditions because it is easier to attack and criticize than the Quran.
So let the Western nations do some soul searching THEN go the Muslims and lecture them. Meanwhile no Muslims will pay attention to you because of your lack of credibility. Thats why the Bin Laden's are operating unabated. The Muslims follow the same Islam as he does, so they can't refute and tell him what his doing is wrong. On the other side the West is more bloodier than Bin Laden and so they can't tell him what your doing is wrong. So the Bin Laden's are going nowehere.
But I can go to Bin Laden and tell him to his face "what your doing is not Islam". There is nothing Bin Laden can do to refute me. Nothing.
I suspect Bin Laden would use the quranic verses which call for war (oh sorry self defence) to destroy you and it would be justified in his mind, as what you are saying is justified in your mind. Who is right and who is wrong? how dare you presume to have a better understanding/interpretation of the quran than men like Bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeni and Mullah Omar who have devoted their entire lives to quranic studies? What makes your interpretation better than theirs? You are mad to think he can`t refute you. A debate between him and you would probably result in you leaving your comfy home to live in Afghanistan/Pakistan to serve your duty defending your brothers against the kafir, as you should. Bin Laden is acting in self defense of muslims attacked by kafir. There are verses which can be interpreted (correctly or not depending on your point of view) legitimising his actions and you are a fool to think otherwise. scripture is so unclear and uncertain as to what it means that 1500 years after it was first introduced, people are still debating the actual meaning. As I have said before, humans who have mapped the human genome and DNA, uncovered the secrets of microbiology, walked on the moon and split the atom are unable to come to a clear agreement on 1500 year old scripture. Scripture! what nonsense compared to the beauty of mankinds other achievements to say that it could be misinterpreted when man clearly is capable of easily interpreting something so simple. You must accept as a minimum that there is no clear meaning behind the scripture, that there is only interpretations and bin ladens interpretation is at least as valid, if not more so (in my interpretation) than yours.
Finally, no I don't believe Muhammad led any conquest. Thats not his job description in the Quran. I already told you what his job description and job responsibility are. He is a preacher and not a soldier. If he fought its because the pagans forced him to. The same pagans who brought us the Islamic Sects. The Pagans of Mecca.
Then you are a revisionist and you are ignoring clearly documented historical facts. You probably don`t think the holocaust happened either.
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What does this have to do with anything? Who cares really about the Christians? Christianity today is unrecognisable from the spider which sucked on the soul of humanity hundreds of years ago. Christianity has been defeated by the renaissance and revolutions througout Europe which created a change in how the church operates. There is clear separation between church and state and no state would act based on scripture as right thinking members of society would never allow it. That`s what happens when science and evolution uncover fantasy tales for what they are, fantasy. The quran is due for a renaissance and until it comes ignorance and the dark ages will continue throughout the muslim world. The only free muslims are those who live in kafir countries.
I suspect Bin Laden would use the quranic verses which call for war (oh sorry self defence) to destroy you and it would be justified in his mind, as what you are saying is justified in your mind. Who is right and who is wrong? how dare you presume to have a better understanding/interpretation of the quran than men like Bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeni and Mullah Omar who have devoted their entire lives to quranic studies? What makes your interpretation better than theirs? You are mad to think he can`t refute you. A debate between him and you would probably result in you leaving your comfy home to live in Afghanistan/Pakistan to serve your duty defending your brothers against the kafir, as you should. Bin Laden is acting in self defense of muslims attacked by kafir. There are verses which can be interpreted (correctly or not depending on your point of view) legitimising his actions and you are a fool to think otherwise. scripture is so unclear and uncertain as to what it means that 1500 years after it was first introduced, people are still debating the actual meaning. As I have said before, humans who have mapped the human genome and DNA, uncovered the secrets of microbiology, walked on the moon and split the atom are unable to come to a clear agreement on 1500 year old scripture. Scripture! what nonsense compared to the beauty of mankinds other achievements to say that it could be misinterpreted when man clearly is capable of easily interpreting something so simple. You must accept as a minimum that there is no clear meaning behind the scripture, that there is only interpretations and bin ladens interpretation is at least as valid, if not more so (in my interpretation) than yours.
Then you are a revisionist and you are ignoring clearly documented historical facts. You probably don`t think the holocaust happened either.
The problem is that the Bin Laden and the Khomeinis believe the Quran is a Book to be recited and maybe memorized. They don't believe you take your Islam form the Quran. Just like Jews take their Judaism from the Talmud.
I am taking my Islam from the Quran. Thats why we have different interpretations. Offensive Jihad is in the books of hadiths. Just like Jewish supremacism and non Jews dehumanizing is from their oral traditions. At least thats how I see it.
Looks like you came here and thought you can attack. Did not know who we are and what is the Quran. So now you know.
As far as the Holocaust. I don't deny that Hitler killed many Jews, but more than 60 million died in WW2. I just don't believe the Holocaust gives Jews any priveleges over other humans. Maybe you do, but I don't. Plus you don't sound like a humanist. Just a typical Islam basher who can't believe that the Quran is what it is.
Why don't you go to a Sunni or Shia website. We follow something else here.