Why does the Quran matter?
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Sorry but it is a book of war. The prophet himself was a warlord who killed and took slaves among the Quraish. How do you think your religion spread across the continent within 20 or so years? Jihad, convert or die. You can keep saying the religion was hijacked but the reality cannot be changed. It is an ideology of power and force and this is reflected in it`s actions and the actions of its followers. either that or it is too perfect for mankind, cannot be used by mankind except for evil and therefore should be removed from our world.
Even i don't like the present day Islam. Saying that most of the people here arn't Muslim at all, but they are peace loving individuals or quranicaly muslim. D
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Evolution is a constant, everything changes. How can you ask anybody to base their life on a 1500 year old book which remains unchanged?
Absolutely right.
This misunderstanding/misconception comes to minds only because people do not make a distinction between "truth/true" and "fact". Truth is with relation to time and space; but "the fact" is not effected by time and space and neither needs reference of it. Grand Qur'aan is "Al Haqqo" A Statement of Fact.
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Man was created as Man from its day one.
with respects Mazhar, do you live in Pakistan?
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Jumping back to Surah nine to see what else it says about how Muslims should treat Christians
929 ?Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the tribute tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.?
Many translators might have translated what is highlighted but they put "even if they" in parentheses . What is said in the Book is totally opposite of their perception.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29.gif
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29a.gif
and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29b.gif
and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book,http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29c.gif
until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated.Here the confronting party of war is only one who apart from other things also do not acknowledge the code of the people of book, Christians and Jews.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/009.%20At%20Tauba.htm
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Peace,
I
m too lazy to think for myself here, and fortunately I wont need to.You might want to add closed-mindedness.
Given that the message of the Koran is so clear regarding the blasphemy of Christians, and the need for Muslims to dominate them, it is a bit odd why any Islamic scholars would be calling for peace or dialog with Christians today. In fact, such Muslims are violating the commands of their own Koran, which they believe are given directly from God, pure and without error. The Koran is clear Muslims are not to dialog with Christians, they are to condemn them and dominate them, forcing them into submission.
You seem to be clueless of the term "muslim". It means "one who is peaceful". In fact, according to The Quran (Reading), all who believe in God, do righteous deeds and believe in the hereafter are deemed "muslims". Those who follow and uphold The Quran are called "mumineen" (those who trust/believe).
I recommend this article http//www.free-minds.org/node/10
How can you be telling us about "the message of the Koran" when you yourself have not read it and/or are totally clueless about it's teachings/concepts/contents? BTW, the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.
Some principles/commands/teachings of The Quran and it's message
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
So, in fact, "the Islamc scholars that call for peace and dialog with Christians today" are doing the right thing. It is what is commanded in The Quran.
2563 The servants of the Almihgty are the ones who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say, "Peace."
The Surah clearly disproves anyone who would claim that Islam is a religion of peace or tolerance. After a bit of a vague start in the first three verses, it gets right to the point
FYI, "islam" means "peacefulness". I recommend reading this article
Also, war is only allowed in self-defense and against aggressors/oppressors2190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress. God does not love the aggressors.
I also recommend http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/fighting-war-terrorism.htm
On numerous occasions in the Koran, it is stated that Islam must be the dominant religion,
"Deen" does not mean "religion". It means "obligation", "debt", "system", etc. And yes, peacefulness ("islam" should prevail. Unfortunately, not all people are upholders of peacefulness...
How are Muslims to respond to the Christians and other idolaters who would deny these truths? In the very next verses, the Koran answers clearly jihad, holy war.
"Jihad" means "strife", "effort", etc. It is used in other contexts, which have nothing to do with armed combat.
See http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/jihad-holy-war.htm929 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the tribute tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
"Jizya" literally means "compensation", "recompense", etc.
I recommend reading the part on "jizya" at http//www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm -
the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.
Qur'aan has not given them name nasara either. It says those who identify themselves as Nisara , and in English they have chosen word "christian" for themselves. They are called by this identity accordingly.
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Yes dear, Pakistan, city Islamabad/Rawalpindi.
How do you know humans were made as they are now?
i just tried your link http//haqeeqat.org.pk
was surprised, have seen this....
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0
and Aidid's video link......
http//www.aididsafar.com/video.html
peace
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Qur'aan has not given them name nasara either. It says those who identify themselves as Nisara , and in English they have chosen word "christian" for themselves. They are called by this identity accordingly.
262 Inna allatheena amanoo wa allatheena hadoo wa al nasara...
262 Surely those who trust, and those who are Jewish, and the "Nasara"..."Nasara" is the name of a group of people given in The Quran, namely the followers of Jesus. My point was that "Masihiyyun", which means "Christians", is not used in The Quran.
352 So when Jesus felt their rejection, he said, "Who are my supporters ("ansaree" towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters ("ansaru", we acknowledge God and we bear witness that we are ones who are peaceful."
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
The greatest power a human has is the ability to think. Islam is just another paradigm which limits the ability of your thoughts to reach outside of the box to find the truth. Think about it. Why do you need to care about what the Quran or even the bible wants? If you truly are a free mind, then why do you need to restrict your life? You know what is right and wrong, not from the Quran but from common sense, from what your parents teach you. Conscience is the highest form of justice, not some book. Your heart will tell you whether your actions are right or wrong. Your conscience will guide you over whether you have done the right or wrong thing. If you feel that eating pork is wrong, then it is wrong. If you feel that eating chicken is wrong, then it is wrong. What do you need the Quran for?
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
My God my God why do you keep replying with scripture which is utter rubbish and makes no sense? Tell me, if a man is virtous, lives a good life and worships God in his own way, will he go to heaven?
Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
A thought, you said
We have the law to govern how we live. And the difference between the law and your Quran is that people actually agreed on the law, society accepts the law as necessary otherwise it would fall apart. But the law is subject to change, the law is always subject to change depending on new developments, while the Quran can never be changed, even when it is blatantly wrong
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
You said ?
IF I wish to eat pork, drink alcohol, change to another religion, marry a non muslim man(if a was a woman), I cannot do this.
?Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
Commonsense,morals etc certainly didn't come with Islam, they existed for millennia prior to Islam, indeed many religious books & many people who claimed to be Prophets-like Buddha, Jesus, Zarathushtra etc had taught excellent morals.
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
Sure, laws bend & change, & religions sooner rather than later accept such changes. Islam is the slowest to adopt most often, but even it does.
Like the abolition of slavery, Muslim nations were the last to abandon slavery-Saudi outlawed it only in 1963, a millennia after USA & at Trinitarian Catholic Kennedy's request, but it finally did.
Positive changes more often than not come last in Islam, but come they do.
Or equal inheritance rights for women, currently Turkey has it, even other modern Muslim nations like Tunisia don't. Many non Muslim nations do.
Islam does retard these progress, but sooner rather than later, they happen.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
The Quran is a guide sure, but its incapability to be a good guide is amply demonstrated with all the societies which tried to adhere to it. Thats why we see so many Muslims, even from never colonized nations like Iran, or a past colonizer like Turkey moving to Western nations, thats why we see so many conflicts, & so much backwardness wherever the Quran is applied. Every sort of progress, from the abolition of slavery to equal inheritance of women happens last.
Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
No when Quranic laws are enforced, you don't. There are laws in multiple Muslim nations forbidding Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, laws forbidding alcohol etc. Choice usually exists as long Muslims are not the majority, or if Quran & Islam is suppressed in favor of man made laws by the state.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Not "cultural traditions" a common excuse amongst Muslims, but the Quran words itself show its not a great guide. It can always be excused if some people misunderstand verses, but if the majority of people who take up this guide do so, that really proves how poor a guide it is, especially is their non Muslim neighbours in similar circumstances don't.
Everywhere I see places which have tried to read it with the "right understanding" have ended up with messed up societies, only by sufficiently marginalizing it has any progress been made. I can easily compare the Muslims I see in Iran with the Bahais & Zoroastrians & see for myself.
Muslims escape from the poverty, social & economic problems in Islamic nations but still carry Islam with them coz they fail to realize that it was Islam which was responsible for those troubles.
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
Thought about it. laugh I'm reminded of all the Muslims I met from various Islamic nations who often try to blame every problem in Islam on "Oh its culture, not religion," or, "They don't understand the real Quran," but conveniently escape to various non Muslim nations to settle down in places which don't follow the Quran as guidance, & try to give dawah to the people who've created these much better societies by not following the Quran! laugh
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Why does the quran matter? What if a person believes in God and not in any of the other requirements of Islam? what if I believe in God, live a virtous life, eat pork and drink alcohol (but don`t commit crimes).. Am I not as good a person as any Muslim?
I would actually say you're as good as a Muslim - a real muslim that is, please don't mistake us muslims for those extremist conservative gun crazed "muslims".
Not to be picky but it's spelled virtuous with a U.
Hatred of the infidel
Hatred of anybody who does not belive in the Quran
Disrespect for anybody who does not belive in what the Quran wants
Disregard for the beliefs of any person who has an opinion different to the QuranI don't think you read the Quran. Either you "read" the Quran by watching news segments about the extremist or you've accidentally read the hadith.
Live your lives in peace and live well.
I live my life in peace and wellness through Islam.
I read some of your post, not all of them, because it felt a bit redundant. It's like there was no real thought behind them.
Are you a troll or something? Instead of analyzing and keeping up an intellectual discussion you just kept knocking on anything anyone says, and any verses quoted by users for you to read.You're obviously not looking for answers, and you're not here to learn anything new. You're just here to push your opinions on us, and to tell us how wrong we are for believing. Does that make you any better than all the other extremist - trying to make everyone think like them?
If you're in peace with yourself and your beliefs then all I have to say is God bless you! But don't feel it's your duty to convert us to whatever it is you call yourself.
I'm happy as a Muslim, Islam gives me answers. If I had Islam taken away from me I wouldn't be happy anymore, I would be sad. Are you trying to make me sad, Humanist?
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Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
Remove the threat of punishment through application of law for twentyfour hours in America or any other society and see what happens and really the people are virtuous? Even when there was chance not to be caught in the darkness what happened?
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Fawzia
Really? So why did Muhammad write in threats of horrible fires of Hell for non believers in practically each page? Threats of how trinitarians, idolators, non believers in God, or in Hell etc will burn eternally? I know a friend who had the courage to leave Islam recently, she had unfortunately been held back many years due to threats of Hellfire.
What does this have to do with any limiting ability? She held back because of threats of hellfire? If she don?t believe in hell then why would it hold her back? Her concern is illogical. so is your thought
Obviously you just wanna pick an argument these questions weren't directed to you but you decided to put your 2cents in and be evasive to suit your need. at least have some courtesy.
BTW they?re not threats, they're warnings for those who wish to take heed and for the non muslims who don't believe in it,why should they be concerned they will have no problems for their mental/psychological state, unless off course they're doubting their beliefs and actually think hell fire exists for them.
Commonsense,morals etc certainly didn't come with Islam, they existed for millennia prior to Islam, indeed many religious books & many people who claimed to be Prophets-like Buddha, Jesus, Zarathushtra etc had taught excellent morals.
I didn?t say morals came with islam. Besides islam isn?t a religion as you may think, it?s a deen and there is a difference. Besides all, this islam confirms things of the past, things that are useful for us things that are on truth. It?s not like, hey this book is a new invention of how to make a wheel, the wheel was already invented the Quran just tells us how to go about using it in the best way. This isn?t the point but obviously you seem to think that muslim think, Quran is the only book that teaches morals. Common sense is an ideology people fail to realise that.
Sure, laws bend & change, & religions sooner rather than later accept such changes. Islam is the slowest to adopt most often, but even it does.
Like the abolition of slavery, Muslim nations were the last to abandon slavery-Saudi outlawed it only in 1963, a millennia after USA & at Trinitarian Catholic Kennedy's request, but it finally did.
Positive changes more often than not come last in Islam, but come they do.
Or equal inheritance rights for women, currently Turkey has it, even other modern Muslim nations like Tunisia don't. Many non Muslim nations do.
Islam does retard these progress, but sooner rather than later, they happen.
Islam retards nothing, people retard the world. If you had half a brain you'd realise the history of Saudi and know it's not a true representation of islam, Turkey is not much better nor Tunisia.
The Quran is a guide sure, but its incapability to be a good guide is amply demonstrated with all the societies which tried to adhere to it. Thats why we see so many Muslims, even from never colonized nations like Iran, or a past colonizer like Turkey moving to Western nations, thats why we see so many conflicts, & so much backwardness wherever the Quran is applied. Every sort of progress, from the abolition of slavery to equal inheritance of women happens last.
The countries you mention are pathetic examples. No country represents islam, the land is for all. The only thing that represents islam is Quran and people ?try? to adhere to it the way they know.
So the demonstration of the societies are not a reflection of Quran but rather peoples ideologies. Pity your thoughts are stuck with what you see.
No when Quranic laws are enforced, you don't. There are laws in multiple Muslim nations forbidding Muslim women from marrying non Muslim men, laws forbidding alcohol etc. Choice usually exists as long Muslims are not the majority, or if Quran & Islam is suppressed in favor of man made laws by the state.
Quranic laws are enforced? By who and what? Quranic law is a persons choice to take, force has no link with islam.
Not "cultural traditions" a common excuse amongst Muslims, but the Quran words itself show its not a great guide. It can always be excused if some people misunderstand verses, but if the majority of people who take up this guide do so, that really proves how poor a guide it is, especially is their non Muslim neighbours in similar circumstances don't.
no fawzia it proves peoples lack of ability to try and understand it. How many people learn Arabic to understand Quran and not just recite it like a parrot? The guide is there for people who wish to take it, if people don?t take it seriously or rely on others for guidance that?s their problem and possibly a problem for others to tolerate and deal with ignorance.
Everywhere I see places which have tried to read it with the "right understanding" have ended up with messed up societies, only by sufficiently marginalizing it has any progress been made. I can easily compare the Muslims I see in Iran with the Bahais & Zoroastrians & see for myself.
just because people try to do something it doesn't mean they do it right. your comparison of such muslims means nothing.
Thought about it. I'm reminded of all the Muslims I met from various Islamic nations who often try to blame every problem in Islam on "Oh its culture, not religion," or, "They don't understand the real Quran," but conveniently escape to various non Muslim nations to settle down in places which don't follow the Quran as guidance, & try to give dawah to the people who've created these much better societies by not following the Quran!
So all these people say its culture not religion, then maybe you should think twice about accusing something as Islamic or muslim, rather than accepting what the sheep tell you or the sheep you read.
Muslims escape from the poverty, social & economic problems in Islamic nations but still carry Islam with them coz they fail to realize that it was Islam which was responsible for those troubles.
Escape to non muslim nations? A lot of people migrate due to war or a better quality life and here you are bashing muslims?
Societies are built over time and injustices will break down.
Some people follow principles of Quran without even knowing it.Your malice to muslims and Quran is so strong it makes one wonder what are you doing here?
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Peace,
You might want to add closed-mindedness.
You seem to be clueless of the term "muslim". It means "one who is peaceful". In fact, according to The Quran (Reading), all who believe in God, do righteous deeds and believe in the hereafter are deemed "muslims". Those who follow and uphold The Quran are called "mumineen" (those who trust/believe).
I recommend this article http//www.free-minds.org/node/10
Look, you can say it means peace, you can say it means LCD TV, you can say it means football. A rose by any other name. Look at this history of your religion since the prophet..where has there been peace? After all have been conquered and are under the banner of Islam, and when all the kafir have been converted or been executed, except for those rich enough to become dhimi, then there is peace. Not that different from the Nazi
s really if you think about it (can you really say that youve thought about it?). Those who follow and uphold the Quran are not welcome anywhere in the world..even in other muslim countries who dont want trouble makers and people unable to contribute anything useful. No matter how good you think it is, the fact is that your religion is incompatible with humanist values of the modern world. And before you sprout some rehearsed nothings about human rights and respect of life under Islam, please look at the reality. Dhimi and slaves have no rights. Maybe your religion is not in sync with the Quran. Then why not end the religion because its obviously not working..it`s an abomination before God.How can you be telling us about "the message of the Koran" when you yourself have not read it and/or are totally clueless about it's teachings/concepts/contents? BTW, the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.
Some principles/commands/teachings of The Quran and it's message
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
So, in fact, "the Islamc scholars that call for peace and dialog with Christians today" are doing the right thing. It is what is commanded in The Quran.
2563 The servants of the Almihgty are the ones who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say, "Peace."
FYI, "islam" means "peacefulness". I recommend reading this article
Also, war is only allowed in self-defense and against aggressors/oppressorsAgain the message of the Koran is very clearly seen in the actions of the lunatics who follow it, and have followed it over the ages. Sure, 1000 years ago the Islamic world was ahead of the Kafir. But because of the backward nature of an ideology which is based on a 1500 year old book, which cannot be amended or changed to suit the human condition, it is inevitable that the troubles and primitiveness in mind and soul of todays muslims is the end result. The inflexibility and intolerance of foreign ideas and values which is promoted by a close minded and jealous religion, which is terrified of allowing it`s followers to choose for themselves, will obviously result in Afghanistans, Pakistans and all the other backward muslim countries which do not have oil and dhimmi to operate their economies.
And again, you can call it peaceful for all you want, but when the founder of the religion of peace himself slaughtered untold hundreds and kept their wives and daughters as his sex slaves, you will of course forgive those of us who remain sceptical. Your religion thinks the rest of the world is deaf and blind. All the while you claim to be peacefull while killing, enslaving and forcing people to convert around the world. And before you quote some empty verse about no compulsion in religion, perhaps you should consult a book which actually contains fact and truth, like a history book to see if your verses make any sense.
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Hi humanists
I disagree with your ideologies of islam
Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.
Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?
Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.
Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.
Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
Being muslim is not a choice. You are born a muslim and you have no choice. The reality is that Islam is like the mafia. If you leave, you get killed. Look at the reality of things and not obscure verses. there is no country in the world where islamic law is in place which would allow a human to exercise his/her human rights and leave the religion. There is no real freedom in the religion because you can
t leave it. Oh dont count the muslims who life in kafir countries since these are free lands where humans can chose for themselves what they wish to believe in.Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?
Only God can decide that, when you die and face him. No mad mullah or iman quoting a dubious book can give you that answer.
A thought, you said
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?Your right. It
s probably better for the man to be given a light sentence and for the woman to be stoned to death or given 00s of lashes for being alone with a man/men who are not relatives . Surely that is logic, fairness and justice.The law is not perfect, nothing created by man, especially the koran, could possibly be perfect. That is why we have judicial reviews, elections and debates between reasonable men so that the law can be changed if it is discovered to be wrong. Today slavery is illegal where it wasn`t so 100 years ago. Slavery is wrong, completely at odds with human rights, yet the koran allows it, in whatever limited form you wish to argue, it is allowed, Therefore the koran is wrong and needs to be changed. So why would anybody live their lives by something which is obviously wrong yet cannot be changed? But why?
Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?
And isn
t it great that people have the right to challenge and question these decisions? Isnt it great that people can protest the war and change the goverment in elections?Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.
I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.
If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?
Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.
I
m guessing you probably live in the land of the kafir and there are no islamic laws in place. Lucky you!! In reality, any muslim country in the world will restrict and limit the ability of its muslim people to do as they wish, within the laws as agreed by mankind, not imposed by an outdated book. So you cannot just perform an action if it is your choice because the crazies who run your religion, as guided by the book, won`t allow you too. In Muslim countries, you have no right except for what the uneducated and narrow minded nutcases who run the religion, as guided by the book, say you have. Try visiting a real muslim country, Pakistan for example and see for yourself what Islam really stands for.I think you and most people on this website are looking at an ideal type of Islam and are not looking at the reality. Billions of people are living their lives in ignorance, fear and in a state of semi slavery because of this religion. Think of how women in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are taught to believe that they are less then men, less than humans and their minds are broken to believe this. How is your religion any different from communism or nazism?
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I would actually say you're as good as a Muslim - a real muslim that is, please don't mistake us muslims for those extremist conservative gun crazed "muslims".
Not to be picky but it's spelled virtuous with a U.
I don't think you read the Quran. Either you "read" the Quran by watching news segments about the extremist or you've accidentally read the hadith.
I live my life in peace and wellness through Islam.
I read some of your post, not all of them, because it felt a bit redundant. It's like there was no real thought behind them.
Are you a troll or something? Instead of analyzing and keeping up an intellectual discussion you just kept knocking on anything anyone says, and any verses quoted by users for you to read.You're obviously not looking for answers, and you're not here to learn anything new. You're just here to push your opinions on us, and to tell us how wrong we are for believing. Does that make you any better than all the other extremist - trying to make everyone think like them?
If you're in peace with yourself and your beliefs then all I have to say is God bless you! But don't feel it's your duty to convert us to whatever it is you call yourself.
I'm happy as a Muslim, Islam gives me answers. If I had Islam taken away from me I wouldn't be happy anymore, I would be sad. Are you trying to make me sad, Humanist?
Oh but I am looking for answers. I am here because I have always wondered why evidently intelligence people who are clearly capable of free thought could still be freely involved in this religion. I am here to try and deduce whether you have actually thought about it and still believe that this religion is correct, despite all the falsehoods which have been uncovered over the years.
As for letting people believe in what they will, I
m all for that. Funny how nobody goes to the Buddhist or Hindhu website to challenge their beliefs. Its because your religion is so intolerant, so hateful of everything which is opposed to it that it creates a counter reaction among others. Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction. If Islam truly was a peaceful tolerant religion, I would not be here. I am trying to understand why anybody would defend this religion? -
"Humanist",
It seems you still did not understand the difference between 'Quran alone islam' and traditional Islam.
This may be helpful. -
Oh but I am looking for answers. I am here because I have always wondered why evidently intelligence people who are clearly capable of free thought could still be freely involved in this religion. I am here to try and deduce whether you have actually thought about it and still believe that this religion is correct, despite all the falsehoods which have been uncovered over the years.
As for letting people believe in what they will, I
m all for that. Funny how nobody goes to the Buddhist or Hindhu website to challenge their beliefs. Its because your religion is so intolerant, so hateful of everything which is opposed to it that it creates a counter reaction among others. Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction. If Islam truly was a peaceful tolerant religion, I would not be here. I am trying to understand why anybody would defend this religion?You still don't get it do you? There are different branches of Islam. You got Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Wahhabi, Sufi, Quranic etc. etc.
We on this forum are the peaceful kind - because the Quran tells us of peace and tolerance - it's right there, dude, in black and white. And we're followers of only the Quran.
If you revert your attention to the hadith though, you'll find all the things you've been criticizing. But the hadith is not the Quran and not everyone follows the hadith. I hope you get my point, if you don't, then I'm wondering what your purpose here really is. So you got your answer - you're preaching to the wrong choir.Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction.
Which actions are you referring to specifically. I know what you're going to answer - well figure out who is behind the actions of the specific occurrences you just thought about and look up what their faith is. Not just Islam. Nobody is just Muslim. Find out their specific beliefs, then find a forum full of people who believe in the same thing.
Your face should be red by now - because you're bitching IN THE WRONG FORUM. D