jalada
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Wakas
I would prefer if people conducted their own research first, then asked. In any case, there may be a few possibilities, but I would think the most likely implication is this is due to past circumstances, i.e. it is probable that "slave women" were used for sexual gratification prior to the rise of quran/islam, thus if they engage in this conduct outside of marriage in the future, they are given half the penalty due to weakness/history. This of course interestingly implies a few things about psyche, for those who reflect.
Well the question was asked after some research. I was disturbed by this Ayat.
Your implication is a good one but then why not same for those who took alcohol before Islam and who were thieves etc. -
Note AQ=al quran.
"some research" does not equate to a lot of research. Please appreciate that >90% of questions asked on this forum have been discussed before, AND high quality tools are now available for anyone wishing to research AQ. Thus, I like to see a person's effort and sincerity when they ask Qs, so I can determine if I will choose to respond to them or not in future. It is no big deal, just a time-saving device I utilise, as our time is finite.
To such effect, perhaps you can tell us
Where is the punishment for consumption of alcohol in AQ?
The difference between the acts of thievery and using "slaves" for sexual gratification, other than the obvious difference being they are inherently different acts. I mean conceptually, the perpetrators, the motives, the consequences, the psyche etc. -
Wakas
Well the question was asked after some research. I was disturbed by this Ayat.
Your implication is a good one but then why not same for those who took alcohol before Islam and who were thieves etc.http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.25f.gif
Therefore you take them into Nikah with the permission of their folk
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.25g.gif
and pay them the obligation/commitment in the well known manner as is paid to a women taken in the protective fold of Nikah/made as pearl of life/home which is opposite the style and manner of payment to debauch/professional women . And nor in the manner of payment as is made to such women who maintain secret intimate relationship .
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.25k.gif
Therefore when maid servants are given in wedlock then for reason of having committed some "fahishatin" i.e. some illicit sexual activity the punishment awarded should be half of what is prescribed for such offence by independent family women.AnNisa
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respected friends, thinking minds, please pay attention to the first verse of this chapter
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat24_files/24_1.gif
241 (This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.
clear communications, really? confused
discussion must go on... handshake
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respected friends, thinking minds, please pay attention to the first verse of this chapter
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat24_files/24_1.gif
241 (This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.
clear communications, really? confused
discussion must go on... handshake
Even this may not be considered by many as not clear, then, nothing can be done for them except let them wander.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/024.%20An%20Noor/024.%20B1.gif
The conjecture and lust monger women are for conjecture and lust monger men and the conjecture and lust monger men are for conjecture and lust monger women
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/024.%20An%20Noor/024.%20B2.gif
and the morally and intellectually elevated women are for morally and intellectually elevated men and morally and intellectually elevated men are for morally and intellectually elevated women;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/024.%20An%20Noor/24.26c.gif
these are the people who are secluded/distanced away/not effected from that which they/majority of people keep saying.AnNoor24VisibleLight
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It is ONLY the skin that makes one feel/taste pain .
is imperative verb, second person, masculine, plural. You people flog. To whom they are asked to flog? each one of two of them . Flogging needs to be specified and linked with the number . Flogging is only to make the skin feel and convey the pain and is with something made of skin and is restricted to number 100.
Thanks, Mazhar, I can see all the grammar, but what is not clear to me is the usage of the language at the time of revelation. As I say, I miss the mention of an instrument to execute the flogging, and I would like to know the name of the instrument for flogging at that time. It musthave had a name if what we are translating as flogging meant meant in fact flogging.
As to pain, I don't think after properly flogging somebody 100 times pain is going to be restricted to the skin. There is in fact a legend around about a son of Omar who died of such punishment, 100 lashes for zina.
peace huruf,
Can you clarify your use of "boring" and how this is of relevance? Thanks.
As a side note, there was an alternative translation proposed by bro Anwar (progod) which was throwing down 100 times.
The boring part is just an obvious unsuccessful "witty" remark of mine to highlight that 100 lashes are many lashes, and that if it is not painful, it is very long and repetitive, and must be punishment for the flogger himself, and if it is painful, it is enough kill people or close to it, particularly people who are not very strong. So while acknowledging that it is not as bad as stoning, I do not think if flogging is full flogging that it is that much a lesser punishment and it is not even equitative, since it may kill a weaker person and a strong sturdy one will come out not that badly off. It would definitely be harder on women, unless a different flog is used according to the constitution of the punished person or another woman does the flogging.
I have tried to read all threads on this matter but I can't remember reading that one by progod. ?"Throw down" where? ?on the ground? ?Down some precipice? Thanks for pointing it out, and if you have any more details may be I can look it up.
Also I am wondering about
"21. They will say to their skins "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return."
May be I shouldn't be but I am struck by this the skings bearing witness against somebody. I have the feeling that somehow it may be connected to the meaning of the an-Nur ayas.And I am wondering as well that in the whole of Qur'an in spite of other crimes being mentioned, this should be the only mention of "flogging", that is, of something translated as flogging Those two instances in the an-Nur sura and both connected. We know that flogging comes to mind easily in some western penal historical contexts, in the sense that many crimes were rewarded with differing amounts of lashes. In the Qur'an there is just this two an-Nur instances. And then all other mentions, except one, of the root jld refer to people's skin.
Some people would say that I am splitting a lot of hairs, but I would like to come out clear on this matter.
I have just seen the remark about the clear text of the ayas, touch?e, but till I want more clarity may be not on the Qur'an but on wht can be made or has been mae out of it. Undeniably things have been made out of the Qur'an.
Salam
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peace huruf,
Whilst I can understand your desire to clarify/understand, your questions/thoughts do seem disjointed.
In brief...
Concentrating on the pain aspect will neglect the shaming/publicising/deterrent aspect.
Why do you assume there is only one flogger?
Do physically weak people often participate in sex?
Yes, in a rare case flogging may kill a weaker person, just like the shock of a guilty verdict may give someone a heart attack and kill them, thus I fail to see what significant point can be made here.
Perhaps you can ask someone what they would fall upon if you threw them down, see what answer they give. This is a classical arabic meaning of the word, thus it is a theoretical possibility as far as I'm aware. Feel free to personal message progod about it.
Is it only the skin that testifies or do other body parts?
Yes, jld most often refers to skin, because those occurrences are different word forms, thus I fail to see what significant point can be made here.However, you did bring up a nice point for review, and that is why do certain acts result in certain punishments? Has anyone compiled such a list to see if there is a pattern/etc? This may be an interesting avenue to explore.
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Thanks, Mazhar, I can see all the grammar, but what is not clear to me is the usage of the language at the time of revelation. As I say, I miss the mention of an instrument to execute the flogging, and I would like to know the name of the instrument for flogging at that time. It musthave had a name if what we are translating as flogging meant meant in fact flogging
If grammer has been seen, what makes you not to understand the "Cognate adverb", the manner in which the verb is to be executed, the action has to take place. What is stated in the words is restrictive in nature, it does not permit to assume anything else like beating with rods or sticks. A scattered piece of skin, and in translation it is said "the object of flogging being restricted to the skin ".
This can not cause death, heart failure is something else if someone experiences it by or during flogging. Punishment prescribed is neither to kill nor to make the convict incapacitated physically.
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Wakas
Note AQ=al quran.
"some research" does not equate to a lot of research. Please appreciate that >90% of questions asked on this forum have been discussed before, AND high quality tools are now available for anyone wishing to research AQ. Thus, I like to see a person's effort and sincerity when they ask Qs, so I can determine if I will choose to respond to them or not in future. It is no big deal, just a time-saving device I utilise, as our time is finite.
To such effect, perhaps you can tell us
Where is the punishment for consumption of alcohol in AQ?
The difference between the acts of thievery and using "slaves" for sexual gratification, other than the obvious difference being they are inherently different acts. I mean conceptually, the perpetrators, the motives, the consequences, the psyche etc.Wow, you are making me feel guilty about my asking a question to you. You are even doubting my sincerity?
I thought you with one of the highest number of posts in this forum could help?Here is the punishment for Alcohol in Islam if it Intoxicates
First of All if we read Quran by heart (mind) we come to following laws formulated by Allah
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers. Will you then refrain?
Therefore Allah is telling us to refrain from one thing, but those who don't refrain are disobeying Allah, and those who disobey Allah following is for them
Al-Quran
But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein And they shall have a humiliating punishment.These are GOD's laws. Those who obey GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever. This is the greatest triumph. Those are limits set by God those who obey God and His Apostle will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein and that will be the supreme achievement.
As for the one who disobeys GOD and His messenger, and transgresses His laws, He will admit him into Hell, wherein he abides forever. He has incurred a shameful retribution.Therefore .....
Secondly your logic was as under
it is probable that "slave women" were used for sexual gratification prior to the rise of quran/islam, thus if they engage in this conduct outside of marriage in the future, they are given half the penalty due to weakness/history.
you said
Due to history/weakness,then why not a person who had weakness/history of being a theif or drinking alcohol before Islam shall be given half punishment, this flawed logic, instead no logic at all.On the side note, once i admire a cricketer a lot, and then i had a chance to get his autograph but the way he behaved during my asking of his autograph, taught me a lot.
Raj-ah
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In case I was not clear, I meant what is the punishment for consumption of alcohol in this world? I thought this was implicit, but I guess not. Please answer.
And what about the second question that you did not answer. Please answer.
Perhaps actually answering these questions, will help you determine if my reply was logical or not. God knows best.
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Fine, Mazhar, so in your explanation jalda refers to the skin of those being punished or refers to a leather object with which they are being flogged?
Salaam
I have this query in my mind about your previous messages, Mazhar. If you are kind to answer I may see, in sha? Allah further into the question.
Salaam
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Fine, Mazhar, so in your explanation jalda refers to the skin of those being punished or refers to a leather object with which they are being flogged?
Salaam
The basic perception infolded in the Root of the word is the Skin. The act of the verb is with relation to the skin and the manner and how the act of the verb is to be caused/executed is again skin related . Imperative verbs for physical acts do not mean and cannot be taken figuratively or metonymically. I don't know why simple common sense things are ignored while translating and trying to understand verses of Qur'aan.
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Wakas
In case I was not clear, I meant what is the punishment for consumption of alcohol in this world? I thought this was implicit, but I guess not. Please answer.
Offcourse you were not clear and it was not implicit (not every one thinks as you do)
When you disobey Allah, then the punishment is anger of Allah in this world, I cannot afford this! If you think that to cause pain to body is the only way of punishment then you may be wrong.The Quran lays down basic prinicipals governing man's life and at many occassions does not determine the details of those prinicipals.
Ummat-e Muslimah has to formulate subsidiary laws within the four walls of these basics of Quran according to requirement of its own age. This is also some times called Ijtihad.AlQuran
Those who do not rule in
accordance with GOD's revelations,
are the disbelievers. -
The basic perception infolded in the Root of the word is the Skin. The act of the verb is with relation to the skin and the manner and how the act of the verb is to be caused/executed is again skin related . Imperative verbs for physical acts do not mean and cannot be taken figuratively or metonymically. I don't know why simple common sense things are ignored while translating and trying to understand verses of Qur'aan.
Let me try again there could be involved two types of skin depending on what is taken to be the instrument for punishing, whether it is a lash made of leather or some other instrument made of leather. That would be one type. The other type of skin is the skin of those punished. So what do you want me to understand of the sentence of the aya, that the jld words pertain to the instrument of punishment or to the skin of the punished. You seem to take for granted that that is by now clear to me, but it is not. I do not yet know whether you want me (or whoever reads you) to take into acunt any human skin or not or to limit any skin to the leather of the lash.
As for common sense and all that, for the moment I do not want to understand anything out of your coments, what I want is to know what you understand by them.
I hope my needs or aims are clear now.
Thanks and salaam
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Right, okay guys...
When Allah Says to Fight the Oppressors in War.... It really means to fight them with Kindness.
also, when it says Moses Punched the man and killed him, it really means he "Punched him with Love" ie. the Common Phrase "Love Punched".
Also, when it says to Cut of a Spy's Legs, it means to take away his Horse, Car or Traveling Device (i.e. Leg, traveling method).
The Other interpretations are too violent and Strict... we need a more Peaceful approach.
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But Rajah, I thought it was clear because the aim was to compare like with like, hence an actual punishment in this world outlined in The Quran.
Also, nowhere did I say the only way to punish someone is to cause them pain.
In any case, the example of alcohol consumption is not valid as it is not like for like, and you have not answered my second questions.
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Wakas
In any case, the example of alcohol consumption is not valid as it is not like for like, and you have not answered my second questions.
I asked you a question and instead of answering it logically, you have posed a set questions of your own. Ok
Here are your two questions
Where is the punishment for consumption of alcohol in AQ?
The difference between the acts of thievery and using "slaves" for sexual gratification, other than the obvious difference being they are inherently different acts. I mean conceptually, the perpetrators, the motives, the consequences, the psyche etc.The punishment for consumption of Alcohol in Alquran was already been provided in last post of mine.
In the Eyes of Allah they are in the same line and if you talk about psyche these all crimes are interrelatedCases of adultery, rape, incest and AIDS are found more among alcoholics
According to National Crime Victimization Survey Bureau of Justice (U.S. Department of Justice) in the year 1996 alone everyday on an average 2,713 rapes took place. The statistics tell us that the majority of the rapists, were intoxicated while committing the crime. The same is true in cases of molestation.According to statistics, 8% of Americans commit incest i.e. one in every twelve to thirteen persons in America is involved in incest. Almost all the cases of incest are due to intoxication of one or both the persons involved.
One of the major factors associated with the spread of AIDS, the most dreaded disease, is alcoholism.
so if you say that when i
talk about alcoholism it is not like for like you seem to be wrong.Now my qusetion why half punishment for some and full punishment for others?
If we follow your flawed logic that it was due to weakness/past history of the slaves, then Is it necessary that only slaves would have the past history/weakness and those who are not slaves donot had weakness or past history.
Why not the same punishment for all?
