i want to stop wearing the head-scarf/hijab, need support!
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now that is one sexy guy that needs to be in a full burka rotfl
The secondary sex-distinction mark is beard and that for which Ayesha wants this guy to be in full burka. This guy also seems to have little hair on face. For him it is necessary not to shave to let sex-distinction become evident through face.
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Yes the post was directed to you, and I was trying to explain to you what I explained in my last post, that the ladies at this forum are not the right one's to get guide from, I told her to inquire it from Quran, and it is the best Guide. After all she had decided it that she will remove the Hijaab and then she came to the place where she could get the support, support from ladies who are like those ultra moderen ladies, who talk about poor but know nothing about them..
I don't see any thing wrong in this seriously.Sirius
That pyscobabble realy hurts I can see it from the reponses. For Majority, if you just scroll back a little you can see Quranic evidence is provided, and if you think you can refute it just give it a try, or like Ayisha call it a garbabge, or like Savage a show of superiority, I will just understand.Rajah, no one was even talking about the poor in this thread and are you psychic to know that the females who speak about the poor here haven't experience poverty first-hand? C'mon Rajah, silly assumptions. It's really not as if we're even discussing poverty so your point is besides the point anyway.
Yes, I saw the evidence you provided and it has been refuted as an evidence for traditional hijab (head-covering).
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Sirius
Yes, I saw the evidence you provided and it has been refuted as an evidence for traditional hijab (head-covering).
Well, that is what you think. You have all the freedom in the world to do so..
But why don't you give it a try and show me how it is refuted, but by your own understanding and not showing me links to the threads of others.Sirius
Rajah, no one was even talking about the poor in this thread and are you psychic to know that the females who speak about the poor here haven't experience poverty first-hand? C'mon Rajah, silly assumptions. It's really not as if we're even discussing poverty so your point is besides the point anyway
Come on, stop clutching the straws.. I have explained it to you many times. You don't even have attiquetes, that even if some one says Sorry to you..still keep on digging the dig.
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Very nice article http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/khimar.htm
This one too http//www.islamstudie.dk/familie_koen.shehzada.htm
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After all that Nonsense and boobish acrobats by Rasul Hamsa, Ayisha and Princess, I think this thread shall be closed and saved, so the readers in future can understand, what is the height of Hypocrisy and how well the plans are going against Mulsims and Islam..This thread will also be a reminder that when these so called "wise ones" are out of logic how do the behave? from ad-homminems to threats..they even have clowns to cheer them up and clap for them.
In the start of thread a lady (this was a planned thread) asks for a support of others to remove her Hijaab, so this can convince other innocent Muslims...then some of the well known charcters of the forum issue a FATWA that she should remove it at once..And I advise her to ask the support of Quran and not of these who think it is right to be nude in front of their family..This was my SIN grave SIN..and the rest can be seen in the their postings...
are you reading threads I cant see and replying to them here? ??? ???Doctor, Rajah is a real to life person and you show your ignorance of understanding the personalities.
rotflAllah Ho Akabar.
Absolutely He is! -
After all that Nonsense and boobish acrobats by Rasul Hamsa, Ayisha and Princess, I think this thread shall be closed and saved, so the readers in future can understand, what is the height of Hypocrisy and how well the plans are going against Mulsims and Islam..This thread will also be a reminder that when these so called "wise ones" are out of logic how do the behave? from ad-homminems to threats..they even have clowns to cheer them up and clap for them.
In the start of thread a lady (this was a planned thread) asks for a support of others to remove her Hijaab, so this can convince other innocent Muslims...then some of the well known charcters of the forum issue a FATWA that she should remove it at once..And I advise her to ask the support of Quran and not of these who think it is right to be nude in front of their family..This was my SIN grave SIN..and the rest can be seen in the their postings...
Doctor, Rajah is a real to life person and you show your ignorance of understanding the personalities.
Allah Ho Akabar.
ok, here's the deal, raaaaaaaajah
had you visited free-minds.org and browsed around for a minute or two before jumping to the forum you would have found out that everyone here already accepts quran as their guidance!
you don't need to exhort us to "ask support from the quran", we already do!so i do not understand where do you take all those conspiracy theories against islam and muslims from? we ARE the muslims, and we live in islam, do we then conspire against ourselves?
please try to follow the real question/subject!
if you have any evidence that quran tells women to utilise headscarf as such to cover their hair, then please produce the according verse from the quran! please show and convince us, i will be the first to repent and wear it if you can, indeed, bring the proof.
for example, please refer to the verses posted by alen in the second reply to this thread. he brings out many relevant verses.
one of them, verse 2431 in english (translation by yusuf ali) is"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
it says to cover a woman's chest, and has nothing to do with head or hair as such. prove it wrong, if you can. but PLEASE use some sort of reasoning or logic that we can follow and not only opinions.
i don't know which thread you read, but no one in this thread ever issued any fatwas nor promoted any ideas of being naked in front of the family (where did you take that from?! )
we did crack few jokes on your account here, but frankly i believe it is because everyone was quite tired from your redundant posts that used little logic, if at all.
but i am sorry if you were unable to catch our drift and ended up with hurt feelings instead or something.i personally believe you're either very-very young or never participated in a substantiated discussion or debate prior to trolling this forum.
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i personally believe you're either very-very young or never participated in a substantiated discussion or debate prior to trolling this forum.
That was accepted of you to believe, considering the arguments you presented in favor of taking off the Hijaab, and after your this personal opnion I am convinced that surely it is not you to be blamed it is your inability to gauge others.
we did crack few jokes on your account here, but frankly i believe it is because everyone was quite tired from your redundant posts that used little logic, if at all.
but i am sorry if you were unable to catch our drift and ended up with hurt feelings instead or something.Now this was a real joke rotfl
Princess
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
Princess
it says to cover a woman's chest, and has nothing to do with head or hair as such. prove it wrong, if you can. but PLEASE use some sort of reasoning or logic that we can follow and not only opinions.
The fact is that you have been fully exposed, and just trying to cover up, remember when I said after posting the evidence from Quran that only WAKAS has the ability and knowldge to answer it or refute it, in all the present participants,and I meant it. Now if you bother yourself a little just scroll back and see what I have posted.
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and if you are too lazy to scroll back than I repeat it for you
Let us start from following verses of Quran..
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.I seldom bring in Hadith or History stuff for the supporting my arguments as it irritates many over here, but as some are doing it without any know how of the subject, let me point out some (Offcourse it is not necessary to understand or even read these commentaries if you can get guidance from Quran),
Some even point out that these verses for that time and situation only, one of the most pathetic excuses.
In this verse Jilbab is a large sheet and idna' is to draw close and wrap up, but when this word is used with the associating particle ala, it gives the meaning of letting something down from above. Some modern translators, under the influence of the West, have translated this word "to wrap up" so as to avoid somehow the Command about covering of the face. But if Allah had meant what these gentlemen want to construe, He would have said yudnina ilai-hinna and not yudnina alai-hinna. Anyone who knows Arabic knows that yudnina 'alai-hinna cannot merely mean "wrapping up. " Moreover, the words min jalabib-i hinna also do not permit of this meaning. It is obvious that the preposition min here signifies a part of the sheet, and also that wrapping up is done by means of a whole sheet and not merely by a part of it. The verse, therefore, clearly means The women should wrap themselves up well in their sheets, and should draw and let down a part of the sheet in front of the face.
Maluana Madudi, we may disagree with what he says but then we have to provide any counter arguments, I think WAKAS
has the ability and knowldge for that.
This same meaning was understood by the major commentators who lived close to the time of the Holy Prophet. Ibn Jarir and Ibn al-Mundhir Ibn 'Abbas also has made almost the same commentary.
Later commentators such as Imam Ibn Jarir Tabari, 'Allama Abu Bakr al-Jassas, 'Allama Zamakhshari and Imam Razi all agree with the above, and One can not figure out why Ibn Kathir's tafsir is given prefrance over others in some specific meaning of the Arabic word?Now relate this verse with the above
Quran
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (how?) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.*
Cover is already there and now it should be drawn over the chest. It is very important to know what or how one thinks of the "Beauty"? What is necessary and not is yet another debate to be considered.
If we study in depth why these verses of this Surah were revealed we find out that coming of these verses
immediately after the Divine appraisal of the incident of the "slander" clearly indicates that permeation of a calumny against the noble person of a wife of the Holy Prophet in the society, was the direct result of the existence of a sexually charged atmosphere, and in the sight of Allah there was no other way of cleansing society of the evil than of prohibiting free entry into other people's houses, discouraging free mixing of the sexes together, forbidding women to appear in their make up before the other men, excepting a small circle of close relatives, banning prostitution, exhorting men and women not , to remain unmarried for long, and arranging marriages even of the slaves and slave-girls. In other words, the movement of the women without purdah and the presence of a large number of unmarried persons in society were, in the knowledge of Allah, the real causes that imperceptibly give rise to sensuality in society. It was this sexually charged atmosphere which kept the ears, eyes, tongues and hearts of the people ever ready to get involved in any real or fictitious scandal. Allah in His wisdom did not regard any other measure more suitable and effective than these Commandments to eradicate this evil; otherwise He would have enjoined some other advice. -
and if you are too lazy to scroll back than I repeat it for you
Let us start from following verses of Quran..
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.I seldom bring in Hadith or History stuff for the supporting my arguments as it irritates many over here, but as some are doing it without any know how of the subject, let me point out some (Offcourse it is not necessary to understand or even read these commentaries if you can get guidance from Quran),
Some even point out that these verses for that time and situation only, one of the most pathetic excuses.
In this verse Jilbab is a large sheet and idna' is to draw close and wrap up, but when this word is used with the associating particle ala, it gives the meaning of letting something down from above. Some modern translators, under the influence of the West, have translated this word "to wrap up" so as to avoid somehow the Command about covering of the face. But if Allah had meant what these gentlemen want to construe, He would have said yudnina ilai-hinna and not yudnina alai-hinna. Anyone who knows Arabic knows that yudnina 'alai-hinna cannot merely mean "wrapping up. " Moreover, the words min jalabib-i hinna also do not permit of this meaning. It is obvious that the preposition min here signifies a part of the sheet, and also that wrapping up is done by means of a whole sheet and not merely by a part of it. The verse, therefore, clearly means The women should wrap themselves up well in their sheets, and should draw and let down a part of the sheet in front of the face.
Maluana Madudi, we may disagree with what he says but then we have to provide any counter arguments, I think WAKAS
has the ability and knowldge for that.
This same meaning was understood by the major commentators who lived close to the time of the Holy Prophet. Ibn Jarir and Ibn al-Mundhir Ibn 'Abbas also has made almost the same commentary.
Later commentators such as Imam Ibn Jarir Tabari, 'Allama Abu Bakr al-Jassas, 'Allama Zamakhshari and Imam Razi all agree with the above, and One can not figure out why Ibn Kathir's tafsir is given prefrance over others in some specific meaning of the Arabic word?Now relate this verse with the above
Quran
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (how?) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.*
Cover is already there and now it should be drawn over the chest. It is very important to know what or how one thinks of the "Beauty"? What is necessary and not is yet another debate to be considered.
If we study in depth why these verses of this Surah were revealed we find out that coming of these verses
immediately after the Divine appraisal of the incident of the "slander" clearly indicates that permeation of a calumny against the noble person of a wife of the Holy Prophet in the society, was the direct result of the existence of a sexually charged atmosphere, and in the sight of Allah there was no other way of cleansing society of the evil than of prohibiting free entry into other people's houses, discouraging free mixing of the sexes together, forbidding women to appear in their make up before the other men, excepting a small circle of close relatives, banning prostitution, exhorting men and women not , to remain unmarried for long, and arranging marriages even of the slaves and slave-girls. In other words, the movement of the women without purdah and the presence of a large number of unmarried persons in society were, in the knowledge of Allah, the real causes that imperceptibly give rise to sensuality in society. It was this sexually charged atmosphere which kept the ears, eyes, tongues and hearts of the people ever ready to get involved in any real or fictitious scandal. Allah in His wisdom did not regard any other measure more suitable and effective than these Commandments to eradicate this evil; otherwise He would have enjoined some other advice.Sorry but no matter what you try to twist those words into it does NOT mention hair or face and it DOES mention bosom and that IS in the Arabic. Lengthen meaning dont wear mini skirts, wear longer skirts, obviously, how can it mean lengthen from whats on your head? A jilbab is an outer garment, a cover of the body over the clothes. . the kimar was worn by ALL women, Jews, Prostitutes, christians, pagans, its hot there. The instruction is to use this to COVER THE BOSOM, the reason in this verse is to cover the bosom not the hair. If you dont use a kimar the instruction is to cover the bosom not the hair or face. If Allah meant hair and face He wouldnt have specified to cover the bosom. Allah does not run out of words nor does He forget.
raaaaaaajah
The fact is that you have been fully exposed, and just trying to cover up, remember when I said after posting the evidence from Quran that only WAKAS has the ability and knowldge to answer it or refute it, in all the present participants,and I meant it. Now if you bother yourself a little just scroll back and see what I have posted.
No one cares why you said Wakas, you have exposed yourself, you have exposed no one else here but you. Princess has said it exactly like it is and everyone else sees that but you. -
I am still waiting for the answer from raajah (right?).......
where in the Koran does it say that hijab is the highest form of worship?
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ok, here's the deal, raaaaaaaajah
had you visited free-minds.org and browsed around for a minute or two before jumping to the forum you would have found out that everyone here already accepts quran as their guidance!
you don't need to exhort us to "ask support from the quran", we already do!so i do not understand where do you take all those conspiracy theories against islam and muslims from? we ARE the muslims, and we live in islam, do we then conspire against ourselves?
please try to follow the real question/subject!
if you have any evidence that quran tells women to utilise headscarf as such to cover their hair, then please produce the according verse from the quran! please show and convince us, i will be the first to repent and wear it if you can, indeed, bring the proof.
for example, please refer to the verses posted by alen in the second reply to this thread. he brings out many relevant verses.
one of them, verse 2431 in english (translation by yusuf ali) is"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
it says to cover a woman's chest, and has nothing to do with head or hair as such. prove it wrong, if you can. but PLEASE use some sort of reasoning or logic that we can follow and not only opinions.
i don't know which thread you read, but no one in this thread ever issued any fatwas nor promoted any ideas of being naked in front of the family (where did you take that from?! o)
we did crack few jokes on your account here, but frankly i believe it is because everyone was quite tired from your redundant posts that used little logic, if at all.
but i am sorry if you were unable to catch our drift and ended up with hurt feelings instead or something.i personally believe you're either very-very young or never participated in a substantiated discussion or debate prior to trolling this forum.
Couldn't have said it better myself...Talk about calling it like it is. The funny & sad thing is that it didn't take very long for you to come to this realization.
Let's stop feeding this troll ). Bro Wakas was clearly on to something..
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"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it (1736). Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many (6116, 1066). Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books (1736). Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders (930-31,387). Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations(4322). But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it (3918, 551-4, 2943, 612).?--Buddha
very nice! bravo
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as i am reading articles, posts where verses from the koran are often quoted, and having learned from sunni's, shia's, etc....i stop to question ok, what is the context, who is God talking to, are there other translations, am i reading what I want to read and not what is really written, and so on.
the translatoin of 1736 is different than what i have. the one that i have reads 'do not follow of that which you have no knowledge". the translation "do not believe in anything simply because you heard it"? wondering who translated it this way. thanks.
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by the way, on the issue of headscarf. i have heard pretty much all the reasons. my question is......if i were a cancer patient undergoing chemo and don't have any hair on my head, no eye brows, nothing, well....does it mean that I don't have to wear a headscarf? (or does 'bald is sexy' apply to woman also?) if i were a quadiplegic on a vent, or if i had sustained head/neck injury and needed to be in a brace , wondering how in cases like these a headscarf can be worn?
when i see wedding pics, i see these brides in low cut dresses with their hair done and make up (and these are women in full hijab at other times ) - ok, are there exceptions? is there a hadith that says that you don't have to cover your hair on your wedding?
why can't i ever get a simple, straight forward answer from followers of hadith. i get all these complex, convoluted answers and then insults but still no answer to my questions. why is that?
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the translatoin of 1736 is different than what i have. the one that i have reads 'do not follow of that which you have no knowledge". the translation "do not believe in anything simply because you heard it"? wondering who translated it this way. thanks.
Jack's signature is a quote from Buddha, i think he's just associating buddha's teaching and what God teach us in the Quran in that it is similiar. its not a direct quote from Quran
dalia peace
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This same meaning was understood by the major commentators who lived close to the time of the Holy Prophet. Ibn Jarir and Ibn al-Mundhir Ibn 'Abbas also has made almost the same commentary.
The argument that supposedly there was a consensus of early scholars on the issue is a lie which keeps being repeated by those who want to convince us that women should cover their heads.
Fact is, early scholars had very differing view on this. Some even said that slave women could pray bare-breasted.
See here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599855.msg245973#msg245973
Also, the argument that we should follow scholars' understandings doesn't really work here since most people on this forum have a different approach and don't just blindly follow what so-called authorities tell them. If you want use that tired old argument of having to follow the ulema you should go to a Sunni board.
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by the way, on the issue of headscarf. i have heard pretty much all the reasons. my question is......if i were a cancer patient undergoing chemo and don't have any hair on my head, no eye brows, nothing, well....does it mean that I don't have to wear a headscarf? (or does 'bald is sexy' apply to woman also?) if i were a quadiplegic on a vent, or if i had sustained head/neck injury and needed to be in a brace , wondering how in cases like these a headscarf can be worn?
when i see wedding pics, i see these brides in low cut dresses with their hair done and make up (and these are women in full hijab at other times ) - ok, are there exceptions? is there a hadith that says that you don't have to cover your hair on your wedding?
why can't i ever get a simple, straight forward answer from followers of hadith. i get all these complex, convoluted answers and then insults but still no answer to my questions. why is that?
Traditionalist view, no exceptions.