Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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I didn't mean the part about getting caught as condoning zina as something that is not very important. It is important, and you rightly conlude that from the fact that it is made punishable with 100 lashes.
But the requirement of the four witnesses, to also points to the fact that we must not rely in punishment as means os saving societies from it, because one can do plenty of zina without four witnesses. To me it points to the level of transgression it is, but the believers must be conscious of it themselves. Punishment is not supposed to do that job for them. And the fixing of a punishment also precludes that people go around avenging this kind of thing wildly. That also is important.
Salaam
I am truly sorry brother, I should have put a ;D so you knew I was joking a little. Sorry Huruf
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If a person truly loves another person then marriage should be the first thing on there mind and not sex. Sex outside of wedlock without the thought of marriage is lust and not love.
Peace,
Kevin.
Just my words! Finally someone who preaches chastity in this thread after all the weired posts from people who try to justify fornication. IF I loved a boy i would marry him, NOT sleep around with him that's lust and not love.
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I agree with you 100%. Both adultery and fornication are gross sins. Adultery spoils families while fornication is pure lust. god has created HIV, AND AIDS for these lustful people. I just thought front your previous post that you understood zina as being limited to adultery and not being fornication. But zina is every sexual act outside marriage as you rightly said.
Peace
We both share the same sentiments. The last thing we need in a Monotheistic society are male and female Casanovas.
Peace,
Kevin.
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But fornication is a serious crime also. Allowance of unmarried people sleeping around together does not only create lustful people but also aids, HIV, AND other diseases but it also creates heartbreaks, children out of wedlock and so on.
Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?
You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love
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Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?
You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love
You have a point. One night stand is so disgusting that it does not warrant a response. But here in sweden I have met a Swedish couple who have been together 25 years(from when they both were 1 and they have children on my age. They have always stayed loyal to each other. But they are not married in the papers although they have lived a almost married life together in 25 years. I don't know what opinion i should have about them, especially because I have seen Muslims getting marry several times and divorced several times like a game while this swedish couple who dont have marriage papers but have been truely commited to each other since they were teenagers. Who are really married in this case ?
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That is what I meant in a pprevious message where there is common life for whatever time, and that life is that of a couple we are talking about a "de facto"marriage. To all purposes it is a marriage. Whether or not it lasts till death or two years or one year, still it is a marriage.
Salaam
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WAIT! I see that you, I and Kevinare saying the same thing but with different words, am I right? Jeez......sometimes these posts go fast....
Yes, fornication is a serious crime, but what is fornication? To you dear sister it seems to be sex without love, one night stands and such? Or is it between two people that have given the oaths of support and protection BUT it has not been said to society in the traditional/ritual sense?
You see the difference I am trying to show? There is a difference between fornicating in the name of an orgasm and fornicating in the name of love
My point is that adultery is "any sex outside of marriage". What you are saying is that a ritual marriage is not a necessity and that 'fornicating' outside of marriage is fine so as long they love each other . In this case I am in totally disagreement with you.
Marriage is not only based on love alone but on contractual and binding agreements between a man and woman 'Oaths of support and protection' is the exact same thing that can be found in the average boyfriend and girlfriend relationship. Making 'Oaths of support and protection' without being legally married is dangerous and can backfire badly if your partner is unfaithful to you.
The 'ritual(practice) of marriage' from the Quranic sense is the most important part of any relationship since it ensures that both parties are getting the best of the relationship without having to worry that your partner is unfaithful to you. 'Oaths of protection and support' can never be the same as being legally married. Being legally married has a strong psychological effect on another person since it is the 'seal of a relationship' between a man and a woman.
Yes a person can love someone and have sex with them outside of marriage, but again this is forbidden in Quran as I have shown you already. You cannot have sex with any person unless you are legally married to them. If a man truly loves a woman then marriage is something that he will constantly be thinking about and not how to get a girl in the bedroom. "Fornicating in the name of love" outside of marriage as you say it is a dumb and stupid thing to do when you have the option to simply marry each other.
Peace,
Kevin
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Brother Bigmo
I would advise you to read the Quran carefully ....
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you acknowledge God and the Last Day. Let a group of the acknowledgers witness their punishment
243 The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. The adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. This has been forbidden for the acknowledgers.
244 Those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers;
245 Except those who repent after this and do right, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
246 Those who accuse their wives, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them should be four testimony, swearing by God that he is being truthful.
247 The fifth shall be God's curse upon him if he is one of those lying.
248 The punishment will be averted from her if she testifies four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 The fifth shall be that God's curse is upon her if he is speaking the truth.Brother if a man witnesses his wife committing an adulterous act he does not need four witnesses to make the accusation. His testimony will be the testimony of four people if he swears before God. The only way that a women can avert the punishment is if she swears fours times that her spouse is lying.
Now this other issue about 100 lashes not being a big deal.lol. Dear brother Bigmo the 100 lashes is not the only punishment that adulterer will suffer
The adulterer will suffer- 100 lashes
2)Public Shame - Most believers will abstain from marrying a person who has committed an adulterous act.
This is not a small issue this is big one. God's law is clear. Public shame and losing the trust of your brothers and sisters in the same is faith is no joke.
This is a long topic. I believe Edip's explanation will be able to answer your question better than I can.
Read here https//docs.google.com/document/d/1_E-nFHs8Y17bJO4omTM9XJlU_ztFNpaN4dzZ6PdTBlY/edit?hl=en_GB
When it comes to translating the Quran it is vital that all of the teachings be consistent. You cannot in one verse ban suicide and killing one another and in the next allow it!
In addition your narrow definition of shirk is incomplete. Any time you disobey God's law you are committing shirk. Disobeying God's law is putting yourself as a god before God. This is sin.
2543 Have you seen the one who has taken his ego as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?
2544 Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
244 Those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers;
You only need four witnesses to accuse women of adultery. The person who accuses the adulterer is one of the four witnesses. This is proved in Sura 415
Brother Bigmo I do not care what Judas did. Judas is not in the Quran. Any narration that is does not comply with the Quran are assumptions and not facts. If you want to follow assumptions with no proof then you are doing the same thing that Sunnis and Shites do. Also what do you mean by "When the Koran says do not kill yourself its talking about doing it for the wrong reasons". Why is it that there are so many people who claim to follow the Quran yet twist the scripture. When God says do not kill yourselves he means don't kill yourselves there are no if's and but's!!! Either you follow God's law or commit shirk , your choice.
Peace,
Kevin
You sound like a Wahhabi who became a Koranist. Always attacking anyone who disagrees with you and accusing them of a hidden agenda. Whats this killing your ego stuff? Anyone who reads the verse can clearly see what the verse says.
2.54. And remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves ; that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness) For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.
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And remember ye said "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.
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Then We raised you up after your death Ye had the chance to be grateful.
Lol! The second time God did it to them but brought them back to life.
s
Its hard to see what this killing your ego is. And how exactly does a person kills his ego?As far as suicide is concerned the Koran says
?And do not kill yourselves, God is merciful with you. And whosoever does that (kills self) with aggression and inequity, we will make them suffer in Hell fire, and this is easy for God to do? (29-30, 4).
So Judas did the right thing exactly what Moses would have said to him and so would Jesus.
Jesus in the Gopel says
Mathew 188 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
189 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.Very hard to do. But deep down we all know its true. But God also knows its hard for us and so we can always repent. Something the Koran repeatedly says even in the most extreme case. The door of repentance is always open but not when we are in our death bed. But Judas did the right thing.
As far as the husband accusing his wife and not needing four witness but just swearing four times and fifth a curse on the liar, well the wife can also swear four times and the fifth being a curse on the liar.
Who won't lie here to avoid being lashed? Most people will lie even if they don't want to. Its human nature. Thats why dictators torture people so they can speak and say things they don't want. Its human nature to escape pain. The Koran tells us that a women can even sacrifice her own child to escape hell fire. Hell fire is of course much more drastic than lashing. Its human nature. But people will accept lashing to avoid a bigger problem. Like many months in jail or financial penalty that can be a burden.
The Koran needs thinking and analysis. Its not a black and white world like Wahhabism is. But by analysing you can try to understand the wisdom in it. The Koran was concerned with the person making an accusation. But at the same time it sent the message to the believers that adultery is a serious offense. Its one of the ten commandments of Moses. The Koran even talked about adultery in the context of the day of judgement. It described those who enter paradise as being among those who do not commit adultery.
This killing ego stuff is not convincing. It downplays shirk. Something that no reader of the Koran could do. It treats shirk like some kind of shame or something. Its not shame. Its doom. Anyone who looks at the verses about lashing the adulterer can see that the verse is really setting upthe lashing of those accuse other people of adultgery who are not the spouse. A good way to make people mind their own business. If you look atn the verses in full, you can see it came during a rumor that came about about one of the prophet's wives.
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If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
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Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
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Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?
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Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
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Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.
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Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah.
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And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this Glory to Allah. this is a most serious slander!"
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Allah doth admonish you, that ye may never repeat such (conduct), if ye are (true) Believers.
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And Allah makes the Signs plain to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Its obvious to anyone what the Koran is talking about.
- 100 lashes
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You sound like a Wahhabi who became a Koranist. Always attacking anyone who disagrees with you and accusing them of a hidden agenda. Whats this killing your ego stuff? Anyone who reads the verse can clearly see what the verse says.
2.54. And remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves ; that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness) For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.
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And remember ye said "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.
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Then We raised you up after your death Ye had the chance to be grateful.
Lol! The second time God did it to them but brought them back to life.
s
Its hard to see what this killing your ego is. And how exactly does a person kills his ego?As far as suicide is concerned the Koran says
?And do not kill yourselves, God is merciful with you. And whosoever does that (kills self) with aggression and inequity, we will make them suffer in Hell fire, and this is easy for God to do? (29-30, 4).
So Judas did the right thing exactly what Moses would have said to him and so would Jesus.
Jesus in the Gopel says
Mathew 188 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
189 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.Very hard to do. But deep down we all know its true. But God also knows its hard for us and so we can always repent. Something the Koran repeatedly says even in the most extreme case. The door of repentance is always open but not when we are in our death bed. But Judas did the right thing.
Comparing me to a wahabi is not going to deter me from debating you intelligently and speaking my mind.lol. I will speak what I know to be right and truthfully. To you is you way and to me is mine. As far as I am concerned you are dead wrong and are misinterpreting the Quran. Whether you are doing it deliberately or not only God knows.
429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.
430 Whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him into a fire; and this for God is very easy.What God is saying here in the Quran is not to deliberately consume you money unjustly and kill yourselves DELIBERATELY. To deliberately kill ourselves is a sin. ?And whosoever does that (kills self) with aggression and inequity? is the same thing. It means that if you deliberately kill yourselves you are committing sin. If you do it un-deliberately you are not committing sin. Very simple and no complexities like your interpretation. Do you see how simple the Quran is?
Regarding what Jesus allegedly said in Matthew 188 I don't think he meant literally to cut off your hand or foot!! What he allegedly said was a PARABLE Bigmo not a literal teaching. rotfl He didn't meant literal hands and foot in Matt 188, what he meant was practices and habits. If something is bad for you and provides no benefit of course it is best to forgo it.
As far as the husband accusing his wife and not needing four witness but just swearing four times and fifth a curse on the liar, well the wife can also swear four times and the fifth being a curse on the liar.
Who won't lie here to avoid being lashed? Most people will lie even if they don't want to. Its human nature. Thats why dictators torture people so they can speak and say things they don't want. Its human nature to escape pain. The Koran tells us that a women can even sacrifice her own child to escape hell fire. Hell fire is of course much more drastic than lashing. Its human nature. But people will accept lashing to avoid a bigger problem. Like many months in jail or financial penalty that can be a burden.
The Koran needs thinking and analysis. Its not a black and white world like Wahhabism is. But by analysing you can try to understand the wisdom in it. The Koran was concerned with the person making an accusation. But at the same time it sent the message to the believers that adultery is a serious offense. Its one of the ten commandments of Moses. The Koran even talked about adultery in the context of the day of judgement. It described those who enter paradise as being among those who do not commit adultery.
Of course it is very easy for someone to lie and say that they didn't commit adultery!!! This punishment is meant for the believers!!! If you are a believer and are truly and sincerely sorry for the sin you committed than you will speak the truth and suffer the punishment!!! If you don't you will never be forgiven till you do so! If you are a believer and you have committed adultery you must suffer the punishment for your actions so that you will be redeemed in hereafter. Being damned in the hereafter is no joke brother. Being truthful and upholding the law is a spiritually responsibility that is not to be taken lightly. If a person is a true believer he or she will speak the truth. Regarding those who don't they will be damned in the hereafter.
This killing ego stuff is not convincing. It downplays shirk. Something that no reader of the Koran could do. It treats shirk like some kind of shame or something. Its not shame. Its doom. Anyone who looks at the verses about lashing the adulterer can see that the verse is really setting upthe lashing of those accuse other people of adultgery who are not the spouse. A good way to make people mind their own business. If you look atn the verses in full, you can see it came during a rumor that came about about one of the prophet's wives.
No. It is not meant for people to mind there own business. The reason for the extreme measures to properly accuse a person of adultery is to prevent public shame, and damaging a person's image. The potential of forever damaging a person's REPUTATION is the main reason why God says that four witnesses must be found before you do the punishment.
I am very sorry if I seem a bit argumentative. Sometimes I wish I could force people to believe what i believe in because I want to see them succeed. In there succeeding I will succeed in the hereafter. Doing good deeds doesn't go unrewarded. When you have knowledge that is as clear as day like I do, you would want to tell others about the Way as well.
Peace,
Kevin
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My point is that adultery is "any sex outside of marriage". What you are saying is that a ritual marriage is not a necessity and that 'fornicating' outside of marriage is fine so as long they love each other . In this case I am in totally disagreement with you.
Peace Kevin
I think we have the same opinion, but we are just saying it differentely. I think the only difference is the marriage part.
Adultery No need to discuss, we all agree about that.
My point is, or rather my question is, when do two people marry? Is a marriage considered valid only after we go through the ritual, signing the papers and all other man-made applications to the wedding.
Or is it when you with Allah as your witness, promise to protect and support your spouse?
To me, it is quite clear that when you take an oath to Allah it supersedes all of the oaths and promises you make in the man made ritual of marriage. Just because I have the "legal" right to not follow the rules because I haven't signed any papers does not mean I can break my oath to Allah.
So like Whereisthetruth's example of the couple who had been living like husband and wife for 25 years but has not done a ritual, has not signed any papers, are they fornicators? Are they fornicators in the eyes of Allah?
Marriage is foremost between two people and their oath to God, Don't you think so Kevin?
Marriage is not only based on love alone but on contractual and binding agreements between a man and woman 'Oaths of support and protection' is the exact same thing that can be found in the average boyfriend and girlfriend relationship. Making 'Oaths of support and protection' without being legally married is dangerous and can backfire badly if your partner is unfaithful to you.
Marriage is not only based on love alone but it by God should be! A marriage should never be about finances or status, because if those aspects are to be weighed in, a rich man could theoretically be more attractive than a poor pious man. One looking for a partner will seek sound economics instead of love. The people who are economically stable will of course show to everyone else that they are stable by buying an expensive car or wearing expensive jewellry, sending out the "right" signals to others.
I cannot really see how a "legal" marriage will somehow protect you from your partner being unfaithful to you. A "contract" will not stop an adulterer/adultress.
If you mean that it can backfire because people might end up on the streets with nothing, the man can just kick out the woman whenever he wishes and has no obligation to take care of her because they are not "legally" married...........well this man will get his punishment from Allah, I am sure of it. As for the woman it is our fault if we let her sit in the gutter. We, her neighbours and friends have the obligation to take care of her.
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Brother Emil
I really don't want to get in an argument with you but are reading what you're typing? Where is the Quranic proof to give support to what you are saying?I really don't care about people who live together 'like husband and wife' and aren't legally married. They don't follow my creed so why should that matter to me. I am sticking to what the Quran says. The Quran is clear that you can't 'play marriage' till it's legal. Lots of couples today do that, some have children and others don't, others break up before they do. My stance is if you love someone and you have the ability and the means to marry them then why don't you?
And of course all marriages have its problems. It marriage! But a 25 year old un-married couple doesn't match up to my parents! My parents have been married for 30 years AND COUNTING! (No I am not making it up!)Yes they had there problems but they always worked it out and they were married legally. I was brought up in a good home with good values. My parents taught me not to have sex with someone till you're legally married to them. This is what the Quran says as well. Being married has a strong psychological effect on a person. It's like a small invisible buffer, to prevent infidelity. For example, who's to say that this same 25 year old couple didn't get married only for the sake of not being 'tied together' so that when they wanted to have some 'outside fun' it would be easier for them do so? Did that possibility ever cross your mind?
In any case the ultimate guidelines for any relationship should come from God. Please enlighten me on where it says in the Quran that it's ok for people not to be married and have sex.
Peace,
Kevin.
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KEVIN
! My parents have been married for 30 years AND COUNTING! (No I am not making it up!)Yes they had there problems but they always worked it out and they were married legally. I was brought up in a good home with good values. My parents taught me not to have sex with someone till you're legally married to them. This is what the Quran says as well. Being married has a strong psychological effect on a person. It's like a small invisible buffer, to prevent infidelity. For example, who's to say that this same 25 year old couple didn't get married only for the sake of not being 'tied together' so that when they wanted to have some 'outside fun' it would be easier for them do so? Did that possibility ever cross your mind?
I totally agree with you, and indeed being legally married has a strong psychological effect on a person - thats just one huge difference between boyfriend-girlfriend relationships and married couples.
The couple I talked about being together for 25 years were not married in the papers because they are atheists... going to the church and swearing to be together rest of their days didnt made sense for them when they are atheists... but they believe in commitment thats why they live a married life just without the wedding.
But I have been brought up like you and raised with the same values. Thats why I never commited fornication but stayed virgin. Following your lust if following Satan.
Peace
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KEVIN
I totally agree with you, and indeed being legally married has a strong psychological effect on a person - thats just one huge difference between boyfriend-girlfriend relationships and married couples.
The couple I talked about being together for 25 years were not married in the papers because they are atheists... going to the church and swearing to be together rest of their days didnt made sense for them when they are atheists... but they believe in commitment thats why they live a married life just without the wedding.
But I have been brought up like you and raised with the same values. Thats why I never commited fornication but stayed virgin. Following your lust if following Satan.
Peace
I'm not buying the Atheist claim.lol. Have they ever heard of Civil Ceremonies? Don't they know that you can get married by a judge or a local Magistrate???
Peace,
Kevin
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Brother Emil
I really don't want to get in an argument with you but are reading what you're typing? Where is the Quranic proof to give support to what you are saying?I really don't care about people who live together 'like husband and wife' and aren't legally married. They don't follow my creed so why should that matter to me. I am sticking to what the Quran says. The Quran is clear that you can't 'play marriage' till it's legal. Lots of couples today do that, some have children and others don't, others break up before they do. My stance is if you love someone and you have the ability and the means to marry them then why don't you?
And of course all marriages have its problems. It marriage! But a 25 year old un-married couple doesn't match up to my parents! My parents have been married for 30 years AND COUNTING! (No I am not making it up!)Yes they had there problems but they always worked it out and they were married legally. I was brought up in a good home with good values. My parents taught me not to have sex with someone till you're legally married to them. This is what the Quran says as well. Being married has a strong psychological effect on a person. It's like a small invisible buffer, to prevent infidelity. For example, who's to say that this same 25 year old couple didn't get married only for the sake of not being 'tied together' so that when they wanted to have some 'outside fun' it would be easier for them do so? Did that possibility ever cross your mind?
In any case the ultimate guidelines for any relationship should come from God. Please enlighten me on where it says in the Quran that it's ok for people not to be married and have sex.
Peace,
Kevin.
Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
If anyone, anyone will stand up and say that they promise to uphold the law declared by Allah, then they are married in the eyes of Allah, no paperwork can prove or reject what Allah knows. It might sound like I am saying un-married sex is ok, but I am not. What I am saying is that a legal marriage is not sufficient, it is the oath to Allah that makes you married.
So back to the question of fornication. If a couple like Whereisthetruth knows (let's say they are muslim for argument's sake) have made the promise to Allah but have failed to file for a by-law marriage, are they fornicators?
If a young couple swear to abide to the laws of Allah but are too young to get legally married ( they are 17.9 years old) will they become fornicators?
Is my oath to my wife and my God weaker than a piece of paper?Kevin I understand what you are saying and like I said to you that I agree. A wedding will certainly create the phsycological effect on a person, to make him/her understand that this is serious now.
But let me ask you; If you had to make a choice between a court marriage (legal marriage) and a marriage with God as a witness, which one would you choose? -
I'm not buying the Atheist claim.lol. Have they ever heard of Civil Ceremonies? Don't they know that you can get married by a judge or a local Magistrate???
Salaam Kevin (again)
While I was typing you posted above. This kinda enforces my point I am trying to make. By Swedish law when two people live under the same roof and have a sexual relationship they are considered married. It is called sambo in Swedish. The sambo law is almost to the point identical with the marriage law.
So you see, the law cannot be a judgement stick of what is fornication and what is not. The law differs depending on what country you live in. The law in the Quran is however same no matter where you go.
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Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
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Brother Emil,
One last thing. I did a google search of Sambo and it appears that it is not a State marriage.http//www.algonet.se/~hogman/cohabitation.htm
"However, the term has a deeper meaning than that. It is used to describe two unmarried persons living together in a matrimonial manner, as a couple, in a joint household, without being married to each other (live-in partners). There is a term in English called Common Law husband / wife with a similar meaning."
I'm not Swedish so either I am right or this link is providing incorrect information. In any case having sex in a Sambo relationshp is legal only if the conditions in the Quran are maintained however i would advise every monotheist to be married by the State as well since it is a simple process and better in the long run for both parties.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
In this case we are in agreement. There seems be some sort of confusion on my end of the discussion. I was focusing on the State marriage aspect and the ritual Quran aspect and you were focusing on the just the Quranic aspect. We are both in agreement. State marriage is not compulsory in the Quran but I believe it to be a prudent practice in the long run if both couples agree to it. Sorry for the confusion.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salaam Kevin
No, dont get me wrong dear brother. I am not against state marriage at all. In fact when I got married I insisted on going to the judge as well, I was the one who thought it was very important to get "legally" married.
It is amusing dear brother that we have the same opinion but we are talking around eachother, I guess this is the downside of communicating through a computer, I am sure if we were face to face we wouldnt misunderstand eachother. I dont want you to think badly of me because I certainly think you are a very nice guy eventhough I never met you.
The question is When is it fornication? One could say it is sex without love, only for lust. But that is not entirely true because if you are married and not in love it is not classified as fornication. One could claim it is when you are not state-legally married. But that is not true either because the law is different in each state, almost impossible to decide who is a fornicator and who is not. The only logical explanation is that fornication is sex without commitment. Where do we find the commitments we are to take? The Quran of course. In it you will find the guidance, but what is more interesting is what you dont find, therefore I cannot give you any Quranic verses to back up my case because I base my deduction on what is not written.
You will not find anything about how the wedding ceremony should be. There is nothing about that a marriage must acknowledged by the authorities and a document archived somewhere. All the things you do not find is evidence enough, that marriage is not a proof to society that you are not a fornicator. The "true" marriage, the one Allah recognises, the one that spans over all cultures and continents, is the one where you stand with Allah as your witness and swear to your wife that you will uphold the Quranic law with regards to your commitments to your spouse.So eventhough WE cannot find any proof that a couple is married, they are married if they have sworn to eachother and Allah that they are married. With the consent of their families of course...
Please dont get me wrong, like I said I am all in with making a marriage legit in all senses, the more the better. What I am very uncomfortable however is to brand someone a fornicator just because he or she has not followed the man made laws even if we know that in their hearts they fulfil and uphold the law of Allah.