Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Mind you, mtqblyn (ن is a totally different derivative/lemma !
2144 clearly discredits "face2face"
the same way 1087 invalidates "direction" ...~ Be sound
Peace hicham9, Uh did you say facing? Like "facing" a person,
a building, etc., understand, one person "facing" something or towards
something. nice switcheroo, 2/144 does not invalidate direction.
and 15/47 mentions "face2face (in paradise, I think confronting is a poor choice).God bless
peace
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Hawk99,
Yes, but is the wrong grammatical formula for that argument.
And when the qebl becomes an object then it refers to "that before you" which does not need to mean literally but it can refer to what is present with you (before you).
Qebl can obviously mean that someone is in front of you (face to face) because the root means before/in front of. It also refers to admit/accept because you let someone or something into your proximity to be before you.
When Moses turns homes into qiblahs there are at least two linguistic mistakes in the passage. The home is assembly and qiblateh refers to follow the guidance (which is before). I have not yet been sitting down in a total analysis of the involved passage, but it is obvious. Their assembly was to be an aim which is also something which could be a qablateh (ة because an aim is your focus and what you face towards.
This word is abused by interpreters to create some sort of prayer direction when it does not refer to something physical. This is reinforced by the misconception that "almasjed al-haram" is a physical building.
Qebl is many times in Quran also interpreted as before in time when it is supposed to refer to "be before (in front of) you".
Salaam
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could be understood as "an approach" as a noun (object). Or "aim", a facing.
Salaam
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As already mentioned, I understand qblh as a place of acceptance/welcome/hospitality/cordial reception
Thus, to my knowledge
- In 2142/5, qblh denotes a destination = a site appointed to host the Messenger of G-D.
- In 1087, G-D instructs Ms? & his brother to settle their community in mr (Mesopotamia), make their homes hospitable, and establish/maintain the concord (lwh), ...
Nb. upholding a so-called "prayer direction" is clearly a denial of G-D's Omnipresence !
SLM
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peace hicham9,
Have you read the analysis of qiblah on the link given in my post?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602528.msg366439#msg366439The Quranic evidence points to qiblah meaning focal-point - focus of interest/attention or activity, i.e. something that receives one's attention/focus
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Peace @Wakas,
Truth be told, I didn't assess your analysis/understanding of qblh ...
... but, I did take a brief look at this write-up (yesterday)!
You know I agree with you on several (qurnic) denotations, but
qblh primarily denoting a "focal-point" just doesn't sink in for me! -\~ You'll have to convince me with reason and linguistics.
SLM
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Peace
The Qibla is The Focal point ( The Law ), that's the only logical conclusions I could draw after years of studying and observing relevant verses of the Qur'an and here on this forum.
A muslim to me simply means any "Law Abiding person ".
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace Man of Faith, I think you have unwillingly made my and
runninglikezebras point for us! By stating "face to face," then
the context becomes "face to face" or "face" towards an object, person
place etc., giving the word qibla the meaning of direction as I am now
"facing" in the direction of my computer screen!God bless you
peace
Peace runninglikezebras , have you ignored 2/144? Thanks
the link, I do understand your point, however, I will believe that 2/144 is
correct, also the ayat does not say when this change would take place.God bless
peace
Peace hawk99,
I'm aware of 2144. The thing is, I don't see any linguistic reference to a change in direction in that ayat. I'm assuming you understand this ayat does indicate a change because it mentions l-masjidi l-armi. In my understanding, "l-masjidi l-armi" is no change in Qibla. Contrary to the traditionalists, this to me a is a reference to Haram al-Sharif; Temple Mount. My whole understanding of the Qibla is that it quranically always has been Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif. The change in Qibla is a hadith concept that allowed the sectarians to move it later because of geo-political reasons to Mecca.
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Mind you, mtqblyn () is a totally different derivative !
2144 clearly discredits "face2face"
the same way 1087 invalidates "direction" ...~ Be sound
Peace hicham9,
1087 ... and make your houses directives and establish the prayer
By praying in their houses, the prayer act causes the hearer to take a particular action for the good. In this sense, I don't find 1087 invalidates "direction", because its derivative "directive" fits the ayat perfectly.
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Then, good for you!
To you be your judgment, and to me mine (1096).
As already mentioned,
I understand qblh as a place of acceptance/welcome/hospitality/cordial reception
Thus, to my knowledge
- In 2142/5
qblh denotes a destination = a site appointed to host the Messenger of G-D.
- In 1087
G-D instructs Ms? and his brother to settle their community in mr (Mesopotamia),
make their homes hospitable, and establish/maintain the concord/rapport/rapprochement (lwh), ...Nb. upholding a so-called "prayer direction" is clearly a denial of G-D's Omnipresence !
I classify this preposterous, close-minded, Sunni doctrine as a form of personification ~ Exalted is The Supreme Master of us (above such a prate)!SLM
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peace hicham9,
If you did not read it, then there is no need for me to convince you.
peace almarh0m,
I considered such a view but it has several issues that just dont fit. For example, in order for this view to work I assume you consider 2142-150 to NOT refer to a change in qiblah?
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peace hicham9,
Have you read the analysis of qiblah on the link given in my post?
Truth be told, I didn't assess your analysis/understanding of qblh ... but, I did take a brief look at this write-up (yesterday)!
The Quranic evidence points to qiblah meaning focal-point - focus of interest/attention or activity, i.e. something that receives one's attention/focus
You know I agree with you on several (qurnic) denotations, but qblh primarily denoting a "focal-point" just doesn't sink in for me!
~ You'll have to convince me with reason and linguistics.If you did not read it, then there is no need for me to convince you.
Ok, Wakas!
I respect your opinion/view,
even though I retain the right to disagree with it.~ Be sound (-_-)
Based on the above, usage of the root QBL in AQ, CAD meanings, and the only other occurrence of "qiblah" in 1087, in terms of likelihood for the meaning of "qiblah", in my view, are
- focal-point - focus of interest/attention or activity
- direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
- point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
- counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action
...
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Then, good for you!
To you be your judgment, and to me mine (1096).
SLM
Wow.. so now I'm close minded, a sunni and what not?
I don't know what makes you trigger like that. But to me the FACT there is a qiblah, as can be demonstrated with the orientation of early mosques does NOT imply one has to personify God or worship a place.
You don't seem to understand this Qiblah is of great symbolic value. All these historical mosques pointing to "the sanctuary" in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock being octagonal at the center of all these mosques.
The "Al-Aqsa" mosque is totally irrelevant when talking about qiblah. When Quran speaks about "al aqsa" it's litterally referring to the most far mosque. It never referred to the al aqsa mosque as it didn't even exist.
I think you are jumping to conclusions, the existence of a factual qiblah should imply we all need to pray in that direction and worship a geographical place. I know I'm not doing that.
If there is one virtue to this qiblah today, that you will find hard to deny this qiblah today is exposing the hadith fabricated lies about mecca, al aqsa mosque and many other sectarian interpretations. On top of this, the sectarian reversed interpretation of al aqsa being in jerusalem and l-masjidi l-armi being in mecca is giving the zionist forces in Israel a very strong case to say there is no valid islamic claim to Jerusalem, based on their own failed hadith understanding of Quran. If the sectarian interpretation is right, Islam has no claim whatsoever to Jerusalem.
The false interpretation of qiblah by the sectarians is so easy to expose, not only by the orientation of the early mosques but also by language. The sectarians claim, jerusalem traiditonally was known as al-aqsa - in the sense of the most far removed sanctuary. Of course this is a blatant lie. When Quran speaks about the battle between muhammads forces and the byzantine forces in palestine it is referred to as the "most nearby place". Even before Islam, jerusalem has always been known as the "sanctuary".
Peace
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Wow.. so now I'm close minded, a sunni and what not?
If you adhere to a (fixed) so-called "prayer direction" then YES,
I deem you close-minded! ... Happy now?~ G-D is Omnipresent (2115,177).
I don't know what makes you trigger like that. But to me the FACT there is a qiblah, as can be demonstrated with the orientation of early mosques does NOT imply one has to personify God or worship a place.
You don't seem to understand this Qiblah is of great symbolic value. All these historical mosques pointing to "the sanctuary" in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock being octagonal at the center of all these mosques.
The "Al-Aqsa" mosque is totally irrelevant when talking about qiblah. When Quran speaks about "al aqsa" it's litterally referring to the most far mosque. It never referred to the al aqsa mosque as it didn't even exist.
I think you are jumping to conclusions, the existence of a factual qiblah should imply we all need to pray in that direction and worship a geographical place. I know I'm not doing that.
If there is one virtue to this qiblah today, that you will find hard to deny this qiblah today is exposing the hadith fabricated lies about mecca, al aqsa mosque and many other sectarian interpretations. On top of this, the sectarian reversed interpretation of al aqsa being in jerusalem and l-masjidi l-armi being in mecca is giving the zionist forces in Israel a very strong case to say there is no valid islamic claim to Jerusalem, based on their own failed hadith understanding of Quran. If the sectarian interpretation is right, Islam has no claim whatsoever to Jerusalem.
Good for you!
~ yawn
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If you adhere to a (fixed) so-called "prayer direction" then YES, I deem you close-minded!
Happy now?
~ G-D is Omnipresent (2115,177)
Good for you!
~ yawn
I'll disregard the insults and reply regardless.
~ G-D is Omnipresent (2115,177) => How is this better illustrated then with a Qiblah that is still visible today? The early mosque in china (east) and the early mosques in the west all have the same qiblah pointing to jerusalem. Symbolizing Gods omnipresence.
This seems hard for you to understand, but masjids having a qiblah DOES NOT IMPLY it's a mandatory prayer direction.
ps I understand you have been traumatized by sunni doctrine in the past but I'm nowhere defending sunni doctrine. Find me one sunni cleric that agrees with what I'm saying here. So please keep those projections to yourself. It's unnecessary and a flawed analogy.
Peace
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Insults!? -\
As an ex-sunni, I used to adhere to "the prayer direction" myself = I was naive, ... and close-minded.
~ Once G-D unseals, ... things change.
& he who knows/sees is not like he who knows/sees not !
All praise, thanks and glory be to the one and only Ruler & Owner of us; The Supreme Assigner.
SLM
