Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Dear Raging,
I am surprized you actually think your posts had viable proofs in them...
When you are ready to discuss this topic rationally (using the Quran) I would be more than happy to oblige.
To make it simple, pick one specific point and start there.
Till then...To you is your system and to me is mine.
Regards,
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Peace Layth
Translation of 1087 by you is highly subjective as far as qiblatan is concerned. Although this seem the most easy way out of the confusion of the qibla in this verse even the translators based in tradition avoided it. As you know qibla and the related root is used in the Quran many times with the core meaning of opposite and this verse can easily have another meaning. Also, practically this translation does not make sense, since Musa's people would have numbererd in thousands which would have required few thousand houses . How can you make few thousand houses as the focal point of salat? We already have enough problems with one house in the desert in Mecca, imagine 5000 houses.
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Brother raginggaijin your argument that bakka is in Lebanon is foolish and holds no water.
Bakka (Baca) is a Hebrew name that was used by the Jews to describe a valley in Palestine (For those of you who know your history Israel was part of Palestine before the region was divided). The name bakka in Lebanon was properly coined after ?Islamic conquests?
Read this article http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah
?Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1000 BC of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century AD Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.?
Bekka is not Mecca. If that was the case then God would have said so in the Quran. However he didn?t . Also no where in the Quran does God say the almasjidi alaqsa ( the most distant temple) is Jerusalem. You are making assumptions with no proof. You are saying things that God never said in the Quran. Also nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Sacred Masjid resided in Mecca.
Sura 6116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
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Peace all,
This can be solved if you study the Torah and Injeel along with the Quran. My believe is that God protected the books He asked us to believe in. And if there are any distortions, then it will be within the translation but not within the original language. As we all know, the Quran has 1000s of translations with different meanings, as with the Torah and Injeel, but one true Arabic version that no one can play with or deny its authentication and purity.Torah, Injeel and Quran point to Jerusalem as the place where Maqum Abraham exist today.
Peace -
Salam KDC,
Just to make a small note, the area in Lebanon is called "Baqaa3/" with a "q" and "aen" - it is linguistically and phenotically not even in the same neighborhood as "Bakka" (Ba Ka Ta). I guess the English map makers did not know how to write "Ba Qa 3a" so they came up with "bakka" as being the closest fit.
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Salam Warner,
Translation of 1087 by you is highly subjective as far as qiblatan is concerned. Although this seem the most easy way out of the confusion of the qibla in this verse even the translators based in tradition avoided it. As you know qibla and the related root is used in the Quran many times with the core meaning of opposite and this verse can easily have another meaning. Also, practically this translation does not make sense, since Musa's people would have numbererd in thousands which would have required few thousand houses . How can you make few thousand houses as the focal point of salat? We already have enough problems with one house in the desert in Mecca, imagine 5000 houses.
Qibla = to face / head towards.
As for the translation not making sence, you need to read the entire context again - carefully.
Moses and his people are on the run from Phraoh...They have left their homes behind them in Egypt and are on the move towards the Red Sea heading for the Holy Land...God tells them through Moses to make their homes as their "Qibla" which means facing backwards towards the area of danger that Pharoah and his army are comming, rather than the Holy Land and giving their backs to Pharoah and his army.
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Brother raginggaijin your argument that bakka is in Lebanon is foolish and holds no water.
Bakka (Baca) is a Hebrew name that was used by the Jews to describe a valley in Palestine (For those of you who know your history Israel was part of Palestine before the region was divided). The name bakka in Lebanon was properly coined after ?Islamic conquests?
Proof of this claim that Bakka in Lebanon was coined after 'Islamic conquests'?
?Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1000 BC of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century AD Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.?
You ignore the fact the Hebrew is still with us today, which disproves your 'Baca' comment. If you refuse to believe me, check the Hebrew yourself.
Hebrew (emeq habakka) Psalm 841-12
"Behold, the first Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed the one at Bakkah, rich in blessing, and a guidance unto all the worlds," Surah 396
Arabic (B-k-h)
Hebrew (B-k-h)Those who say there is no relation between Hebrew and Arabic refuse to acknowledge the Semitic origins of both languages. I suggest you look up 'Semitic Languages' on Wikipedia or other venues of knowledge, and then turn to the Hebrew Books to see your knowledge of Arabic will assist you in understanding their ancient Hebrew writ in their Masoretic texts.
Bekka is not Mecca. If that was the case then God would have said so in the Quran. However he didn?t . Also no where in the Quran does God say the almasjidi alaqsa ( the most distant temple) is Jerusalem. You are making assumptions with no proof. You are saying things that God never said in the Quran. Also nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Sacred Masjid resided in Mecca.
Sura 6116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
If you want to uphold Wikipedia and other hadiths of man over the Books Allah revealed, you are more than welcome to do so. As shown, I bring proofs from the Quran and what is verified in previous Books to show why I believe what I believe.
However, before you lump me in with the 'majority', realize that I am the only person here saying our qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, in Mecca.
The Islamists say our qiblah is the Kaaba, the House inside Masjid Al-Haram.
The Free-Minds followers say our qiblah is Jerusalem.So in actuality, I am not the majority, but part of a very small minority. )
Even if it's an Ummah of one, uphold the Truth.All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.Peace.
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Dear Raging,
I am surprized you actually think your posts had viable proofs in them...
When you are ready to discuss this topic rationally (using the Quran) I would be more than happy to oblige.
You make claims and fail to provide proof. I make claims and provide proof. Who is rational and who is irrational?
Since you cannot bring proof to support your accusations against me, you also commit slander. That only adds burden of sin on your soul, Layth. I recommend using evidence-based rhetoric next time instead of Invalidation and Insult. It's better for you.Bring your proof. Explanation is not proof.
Till then...To you is your system and to me is mine.
I agree. )
I thank Allah for this opportunity to increase my iman and share the knowledge He has given me.
All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all beings. Him do I serve and Him alone do I beseech for help.Peace.
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Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.
Peace,
Kevin D.Cooper peace
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Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?History upholds the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The previous Books uphold the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The Quran describes the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel, where the Bani Israel settled, verifying the Truth.The Quran describes the maqami as a sphere of influence.
You say maqami is a rock.The Quran describes the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers settling in a secure, sacred place where a provision is not available, while Allah brings provision to them.
You say a location of ruins where conflict and daily strife are the norm, with no established pilgrimage or sacrifice is the place they settled.The Quran describes the town that exiled the Prophet Muhammad and the believers and speaks of its destruction.
You say the town that was destroyed was Mecca but named Petra, and that the Prophet and the believers settled in a place that was destroyed where the ruins of the previous Temple still stand today.The Quran describes the House in a valley.
You say the House is on a Mount.And you attack me saying I lack common sense. By what do you judge?
You are taking writings of man as a religious guidance. That is shirk, even if it's a 28 page booklet whose foundation is based on the writings of an opponent of Al-Islam; Patricia Crone.
In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.
Once more you are incorrect.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla
"According to accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblatain (Mosque of the Two Qiblahs). Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah...
The Qiblah, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction of the Kaaba."Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba - the Ancient House where sacrifices are to be taken for Hajj.
Yet the Islamists strive to say the Kaaba is Masjid Al-Haram.You can't continue discussion without insults, so I leave you be and bid you peace.
"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
Peace.
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Peace Layth
1087 does not indicate that Moses has strated taking his people out of Egypt at that point.
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087 (Progressive Muslim translation) this is not in the Quran.
The core meaning derived from the usage of the root qa ba lam in the Quran is 'opposite". But if you insist, to twist the meaning to arrive at "face/ head towards" its your choice.
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Peace
Salam KDC,
Just to make a small note, the area in Lebanon is called "Baqaa3/" with a "q" and "aen" - it is linguistically and phenotically not even in the same neighborhood as "Bakka" (Ba Ka Ta). I guess the English map makers did not know how to write "Ba Qa 3a" so they came up with "bakka" as being the closest fit.
Many locations in Palestine /Israel have Hebrew names. There are many similairties, lexical and phonetic, between Hebrew and Arabic. But that does not mean they have to share the same roots to have the same meaning. For instance shalom/ salam and melech/ malak. Its quite possible the Hebrew biqa is same as the Arabic bakka since there are many such phonetically similar ( but not same) words having the same meaning in Hebrew and Arabic.
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Salam,
You make claims and fail to provide proof. I make claims and provide proof. Who is rational and who is irrational?
Since you cannot bring proof to support your accusations against me, you also commit slander. That only adds burden of sin on your soul, Layth. I recommend using evidence-based rhetoric next time instead of Invalidation and Insult. It's better for you.You mean proofs like your continuos posts calling the place of pilgrimage "Makka" when God calls it "Bakka" (396)?
Yes, very rational indeed!
Like I said, when you are ready to put emotions aside and discuss this topic using the Quran (you can start by calling in Bakka) then we can talk further.
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Salam Warner,
1087 does not indicate that Moses has strated taking his people out of Egypt at that point.
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087 (Progressive Muslim translation) this is not in the Quran.
The core meaning derived from the usage of the root qa ba lam in the Quran is 'opposite". But if you insist, to twist the meaning to arrive at "face/ head towards" its your choice.
I asked that you read the context - carefully.
1086, the peopel of Moses ask that they be saved from pharoah.
1087, Moses is inspired to search out new homes for his people, while making their exisiting homes as "Qibla" and upholding the Salat
1088, Moses prays that God takes away all the wealth of pharoah and his people
1089, God agrees
1090, Moses and hsi people reach the Red Sea, and Pharaoh is drowned.As for the meaning of "QBL", please don't use dramatic "you twist the meaning" statements...The verses of the Quran consistently apply this word to "face/towards" never "opposite/away" (see 2142-145, and 1087 - especially 2144).
Many locations in Palestine /Israel have Hebrew names. There are many similairties, lexical and phonetic, between Hebrew and Arabic. But that does not mean they have to share the same roots to have the same meaning. For instance shalom/ salam and melech/ malak. Its quite possible the Hebrew biqa is same as the Arabic bakka since there are many such phonetically similar ( but not same) words having the same meaning in Hebrew and Arabic.
How has "Biqa" in Lebanon now become a Hebrew word? Let's stick to Arabic words/sounds when discussing the Quran as it is an Arabic book.
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peace Layth,
Moses and his people are on the run from Phraoh...They have left their homes behind them in Egypt and are on the move towards the Red Sea heading for the Holy Land...God tells them through Moses to make their homes as their "Qibla" which means facing backwards towards the area of danger that Pharoah and his army are comming, rather than the Holy Land and giving their backs to Pharoah and his army.
Why are "Moses and his people" unable to implement the solution in 4102?
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087
"tabawwa" is in the DUAL thus the verb is only applicable to Moses and his brother, thus, please provide a translation that is acceptable according to the Arabic so can then evaluate your understanding better.
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Salam Wakas,
Why are "Moses and his people" unable to implement the solution in 4102?
Perhaps because 4102 has not been revealed yet! God gave them a solution for their time - the Torah had not even been revealed by this stage (it was revelaed when Moses went to the mountain), let alone the Quran.
"tabawwa" is in the DUAL thus the verb is only applicable to Moses and his brother, thus, please provide a translation that is acceptable according to the Arabic so can then evaluate your understanding better.
Moses and his brother are being asked to do something...And that is to find suitable homes for their people, while making their exisitng homes their Qibla. Pointing out it is dual (adressing Moses and his brother) does not change from what is being said - in-fact you can see the adress is to Moses and Aaron even without "tabawwaa" needing to be dual.
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peace Layth,
Yes, I am aware 4102 was not revealed yet, but what I'm suggesting is that they are seemingly unable to think of doing "salat" in a rotational manner, e.g. with two groups. What you are suggesting seems very odd to me, but I guess it is theoretically possible.
Pointing out it is dual (adressing Moses and his brother) does not change from what is being said
Actually it does, because the FM translation reads "...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt..." but now you've changed it to
Moses and his brother are being asked to do something...And that is to find suitable homes for their people
Which one is it find homes or leave homes?
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Salam,
You mean proofs like your continuos posts calling the place of pilgrimage "Makka" when God calls it "Bakka" (396)?
The Quran gives description of the location of the House, which is a secure, sacred valley where a provision is not available, while Allah brings provision to them. Allah calls this place 'bakka', while man calls it 'Mecca'.
You disbelieve Mecca is where Masjid Al-Haram is located.Man tells you a location of ruins where conflict and daily strife are the norm (even in the map linked there are areas of , with no established pilgrimage or sacrifice is Ge'ullim, but in parenthesis they say 'Baka' - not 'Baca' as found in the translations of the Bible, or 'bakkah' as found in the Hebrew. Further, you cannot point out the location of the House as the Dome of the Rock is on a Mount, not in a valley, and is the renovated pagan temple of Zeus.
You believe this area is where Masjid Al-Haram is, when you cannot show the actual location of the House at all.Allah gives clear description and you disbelieve.
Man gives you conjecture and you believe.I won't be asked what you do. )
How has "Biqa" in Lebanon now become a Hebrew word? Let's stick to Arabic words/sounds when discussing the Quran as it is an Arabic book.
Far easier than 'Ge'ullim' is (Baka).
Had you researched into who the predecessors of Lebanon were, you would know of the Phoenicians.
They created, by the will of Allah, a Northern Semitic language -Proto-Canaanite - used by the civilization of Phoenicia and adopted by their Mediterranean neighbors. The Aramaic alphabet, a modified form of Phoenician, was the ancestor of the modern Arabic and Hebrew scripts."And Solomon was David's heir, and he said, 'Men, we have been taught the language (mantiqa) of the birds, and we have been given of everything; surely this is indeed the manifest bounty.'" Surah 2716
Proof Birds
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAhoYes, very rational indeed!
Like I said, when you are ready to put emotions aside and discuss this topic using the Quran (you can start by calling in Bakka) then we can talk further.
No emotions are involved, Layth.
Proofs are given numerous times, in a calm rational manner; listed and repeated. How irrational of me to uphold clear proofs from a clear, pure, protected revelation from the Lord of all beings.If you believe I am misguided, then continue to do so.
I'm not here to guide, as only Allah is Guide.
I won't be asked what anyone did, as I am only responsible for myself.We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149I am not of the doubters. )
Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He err. Surah 482, 2052
"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
You had ample opportunity to provide proof to support why you believe what you believe. In every instance you are unable to do so.
I take my leave of you and bid you 'Peace'. -
Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic?
In regards to "the Bible", it is incomplete, edited and (re)added to in order to suit the agendas of the people who first tried to subdue Christianity in the first place.
I regard any document with suspicion.
Especially those written by "religious scholars".If you wipe the lines on the map, it's one chunk of land amidst one sea.
Al Lah didn't draw those lines. People did. -
Salam Layth
Agreed, " twisting the meaning" above is bit harsh. I withdraw that remark.
Here is your (F/M) translation of 2144 .
"...........We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it."..................................."
You have translated the qibla as "focal point" here and not as "face/head towards". I think you have mixed up these words unintentionally.
Let me try to explain the difference between qa ba la ( in front/ opposite) and face/head towards. Lets assume in a street HSBC is exactly in front of / opposite City Bank. If you stand at the front entrance of City Bank and assume HSBC is your focal point the qibla is HSBC. While you are doing the facing or if you cross the road and walk towards the HSBC the actions "face/head towards" does not become the qibla or your qibla. As I said qibla is always in front/opposite to where you face . So by default your focal point should be in front/ opposite to where you are.
