Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

Bigmo

They are at Masjid Al-Haram at this time, starting the 4 months of Truce. Surah 91-7

"How should the idolaters have a covenant with God and His Messenger? -- excepting those with whom you made covenant at the Holy Mosque; so long as they go straight with you, do you go straight with them; surely God loves the godfearing." Surah 97

Surah 913 states they attacked the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers first, expelling them the first time.

"Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and purposed to expel the Messenger, beginning the first time against you? Are you afraid of them? You would do better to be afraid of God, if you are believers." Surah 913

Which causes a problem when Allah describes the disbelievers and believers destroying the homes of the disbelievers who expelled them. But no violence or destruction occurred at Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah gives description of the believers and disbelievers in Surah 999-100

"And the Outstrippers, the first of the Emigrants and the Helpers, and those who followed them in good-doing -- God will be well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him; and He has prepared for them gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to dwell forever and ever; that is the mighty triumph.
And some of the Bedouins who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement." Surah 999-100

The expulsion of the Prophet is mentioned in Surah 940, when they hid in the cave, showing that the first expulsion already occurred

"If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise." Surah 940

The emigration of the Prophet and the believers is discussed as prior to the destruction of the place of expulsion.

"They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Surah 489

"Those who believe, and have emigrated and struggled with their possessions and their selves in the way of God, and those who have given refuge and help -- those are friends one of another. And those who believe, but have not emigrated -- you have no duty of friendship towards them till they emigrate; yet if they ask you for help, for religion's sake, it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and you there is a compact; and God sees the things you do." Surah 872

The chastisement will come.
?And they demand of thee to hasten the chastisement! But for a stated term the chastisement would have come upon them; but it shall come upon them suddenly, when they are not aware.? Surah 2953
?Say My Lord would not care for you were it not for your prayer; but you have indeed rejected, so that which shall cleave shall come.? Surah 2577

The town that expelled the Prophet was destroyed
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4

The believers inherit the land, and the untrodden land.
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. Allah is powerful over everything.? Surah 3326-27

The Prophet and the believers settled into Mecca peacefully, without conflict.
?It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. Allah sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Sacred Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account - that Allah may admit into His mercy whom He will - had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement.? Surah 4824-25

If Muhammad was exiled from Mecca, the disbelievers and believers would be well known. But they were not known, so Allah restrained their hands.

The disbelievers continue to fight the Prophet and the believers.
"It is not for the idolaters to inhabit God's places of worship, witnessing against themselves unbelief; those -- their works have failed them, and in the Fire they shall dwell forever." Surah 917
"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107

Masjid Al-Qiblatan - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs - is in Medina. This was a place of ambush for those who fought the Messenger initially.

Allah does not change His way.
?They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more rightly guided than any one of the nations; but when a warner came to them, it increased them only in aversion, waxing proud in the land, and devising evil; but evil devising encompasses only those who do it; So do they expect anything but the way of the ancients (sunnata al-awwaleena)? And thou shalt never find any changing the way of Allah (lisunnati Allahi), and thou shalt never find any altering the way of Allah (lisunnati Allahi).? Surah 3542-43

?And naught prevented men from believing when the guidance came unto them, and seeking their Lord's forgiveness, but that the way of the ancients (sunnatu al-awwaleena) should come upon them, or that the chastisement should come upon them face to face.? Surah 1855

I'm interested in what you can find in the Quran. Insha'Allah, Allah will increase our knowledge.

No worries. Maybe this will help in your studies though

The Christians have a qiblah. Isa set his face toward Jerusalem Luke 951-56

May Allah guide us to a right better than this.

Peace.

So what are you saying that Muhammad was expelled somewhere else than Mecca? And where was the place that God destroyed or are you saying that Muhammad was never exiled? I don't get what you are saying. Also I noticed that you tend to use a lot of assumption when translating the verses. Such as because the covenant was made at the Masjid then Muhammad must have been in Mecca at the time. The verse never said such thing. We also know that the Koran talked about pilgrimages treaty that was later broken. Maybe that treaty was signed in Mecca but that does not mean Muhamamd was always in Mecca.

Plus there is nowhere in the Koran that it says that Muhammad's enemies were destroyed. Or are you saying he was never exiled.

Plus the people of the book in the Koran are the Jews, not Christians. And the Koran says that the Jews also will not pray towards each others' Qibla.

And where do you think the Sacred Mosque is located? And what is the Petra part? Your views seem somewhat so scattered that its hard to frame it in my mind. As far as Christians and Qibla

raginggaijin

So what are you saying that Muhammad was expelled somewhere else than Mecca?

Yes. Have you read any of my posts made earlier in this thread?

And where was the place that God destroyed

Petra, the capitol of the Nabatean lands, called Midian in earlier times.

Also I noticed that you tend to use a lot of assumption when translating the verses. Such as because the covenant was made at the Masjid then Muhammad must have been in Mecca at the time. The verse never said such thing. We also know that the Koran talked about pilgrimages treaty that was later broken. Maybe that treaty was signed in Mecca but that does not mean Muhamamd was always in Mecca."

If a truce was signed at Mecca, why would they need a pilgrimage treaty as they are already at Mecca; they arrived. Are you saying they were kicked out again?

Masjid Al-Qiblata is spoken of as a place of ambush for those who fought the Messenger earlier, spoken of in Surah 9101, and the fighting occurred away from Yathrib as the cowards asked to go home. Surah 3313

Plus there is nowhere in the Koran that it says that Muhammad's enemies were destroyed.

The disbelievers were scattered after their homes and fortresses were destroyed at their own hands and at the hands of the believers, as shown in Surah 592-4. The chastisement came, from where they knew not.
"It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution." Surah 592-4

This all came after the expulsion.

It is for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their habitations and their possessions, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure, and helping God and His Messenger; those -- they are the truthful ones.
And those who made their dwelling in the abode, and in belief, before them; love whosoever has emigrated to them, not finding in their breasts any need for what they have been given, and preferring others above themselves, even though poverty be their portion. And whoso is guarded against the avarice of his own soul, those -- they are the prosperers.
And as for those who came after them, they say, 'Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers, who preceded us in belief, and put Thou not into our hearts any rancour towards those who believe. Our Lord, surely Thou art the All-gentle, the All-compassionate.'" Surah 598-10

Allah even speaks of the hypocrites who said they would go with the disbelievers if they were expelled

"Hast thou not regarded the hypocrites, saying to their brothers of the People of the Book who disbelieve, 'If you are expelled, we will go forth with you, and we will never obey anyone in regard to you. If you are fought against, we will help you.' And God bears witness that they are truly liars.
If those are expelled, they will not go forth with them, and if they are fought against, they will not help them. Even if they helped them, they would surely turn their backs, then they would not be helped.
Why, you arouse greater fear in their hearts than God; that is because they are a people who understand not." Surah 5911-13

No fighting occurred in Mecca.

Plus the people of the book in the Koran are the Jews, not Christians.

No, the People of the Book are Yahudians and Nazarene.

"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian." Surah 4171

And the Koran says that the Jews also will not pray towards each others' Qibla.

Christians - be they Nazarene or Sabine - do not know their own qiblah as found in the Injeel they profess to uphold.

And where do you think the Sacred Mosque is located?

Mecca.

And what is the Petra part? Your views seem somewhat so scattered that its hard to frame it in my mind.

Seems linear to me. /shrug
I'm only responsible for myself. You can believe whatever you choose to.
Peace.

Bigmo

Yes. Have you read any of my posts made earlier in this thread?

Petra, the capitol of the Nabatean lands, called Midian in earlier times.

If a truce was signed at Mecca, why would they need a pilgrimage treaty as they are already at Mecca; they arrived. Are you saying they were kicked out again?

Masjid Al-Qiblata is spoken of as a place of ambush for those who fought the Messenger earlier, spoken of in Surah 9101, and the fighting occurred away from Yathrib as the cowards asked to go home. Surah 3313

The disbelievers were scattered after their homes and fortresses were destroyed at their own hands and at the hands of the believers, as shown in Surah 592-4. The chastisement came, from where they knew not.
"It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution." Surah 592-4

This all came after the expulsion.

It is for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their habitations and their possessions, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure, and helping God and His Messenger; those -- they are the truthful ones.
And those who made their dwelling in the abode, and in belief, before them; love whosoever has emigrated to them, not finding in their breasts any need for what they have been given, and preferring others above themselves, even though poverty be their portion. And whoso is guarded against the avarice of his own soul, those -- they are the prosperers.
And as for those who came after them, they say, 'Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers, who preceded us in belief, and put Thou not into our hearts any rancour towards those who believe. Our Lord, surely Thou art the All-gentle, the All-compassionate.'" Surah 598-10

Allah even speaks of the hypocrites who said they would go with the disbelievers if they were expelled

"Hast thou not regarded the hypocrites, saying to their brothers of the People of the Book who disbelieve, 'If you are expelled, we will go forth with you, and we will never obey anyone in regard to you. If you are fought against, we will help you.' And God bears witness that they are truly liars.
If those are expelled, they will not go forth with them, and if they are fought against, they will not help them. Even if they helped them, they would surely turn their backs, then they would not be helped.
Why, you arouse greater fear in their hearts than God; that is because they are a people who understand not." Surah 5911-13

No fighting occurred in Mecca.

No, the People of the Book are Yahudians and Nazarene.

"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian." Surah 4171

Christians - be they Nazarene or Sabine - do not know their own qiblah as found in the Injeel they profess to uphold.

Mecca.

Seems linear to me. /shrug
I'm only responsible for myself. You can believe whatever you choose to.
Peace.

Sorry but I am not able to follow what you are saying. It seems you are questioning the sira (biography). You could be right but I think most historians will see it as somewhat far fetched. Petra is thousands of miles from Mecca.

But its interesting your take on "people of the book". I still believe that its talking about the Jews. Why?

Lets look at the verses again

4.153-173. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant. (They have incurred divine displeasure) In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;- . That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;- That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. . But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- Messenger. who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness But enough is Allah for a witness. Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way- Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah) those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.

As you can see that verse came in the context of the Jews. If you ask the Jews today why they reject Jesus, many will say because he claimed he was god and because the trinity is against Judaism and the teachings of the OT. However that is not the real reason. They rejected Jesus because he rejected the Pharisaic tradition and they refused to accept him as the Messiah. They were waiting for the Messiah to create for them a political state that dominates other nations. Jesus was concerned with the after life kingdom. Actually the Jews are still disputing why Jesus was refused by the earlier jewish community with some saying he was a Roman traitor and others saying he was a sorcerer who was a bastard child. But i still believe that its talking to the Jews. I have noticed that sometimes the Koran sems ambiguous but we should compare such verses with the other verses on the topic. But it seems from the context that verse of the people of the book is talking about, its about the Jews. But maybe I am wrong.

As far as what you are saying regarding, I find it some what hard to see where Petra fit in all this. I have not looked into this as the subject is not that interesting to me.

stillearning

AOA

Fascinating discussion. Few simple questions for Layth and raginagajjin

At the time of prophets (Mohd) death, how far had Islam (those who believed in his message) spread.
Do you believe in Hajj (Mecca or Jeruslaem not an issue)
Do you believe that Muslims must pray (3,2 or 5) in a given direction.
Apologies if you have already covered the above as I need to be clear about your views.

Regards

peace rainagajjin I like your style, I have read most of this thread and your response to number of insults has been admirable as has your stance on insisting the discussion be based predominantly on Qurabic facts

raginggaijin

Sorry but I am not able to follow what you are saying. It seems you are questioning the sira (biography). You could be right but I think most historians will see it as somewhat far fetched. Petra is thousands of miles from Mecca.

I know, right? Which makes this ayat suddenly make sense

"Were it a gain near at hand, and an easy journey, they would have followed thee; but the distance was too far for them. Still they will swear by God, 'Had we been able, we would have gone out with you,' so destroying their souls; and God knows that they are truly liars." Surah 942

"Those who were left behind rejoiced in tarrying behind the Messenger of God, and were averse to struggle with their possessions and their selves in the way of God. They said, 'Go not forth in the heat.' Say 'Gehenna's fire is hotter, did they but understand.'" Surah 981

But its interesting your take on "people of the book". I still believe that its talking about the Jews. Why?

Lets look at the verses again

4.153-173. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant. (They have incurred divine displeasure) In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;- . That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;- That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. . But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- Messenger. who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness But enough is Allah for a witness. Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way- Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah. believe in him It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" desist it will be better for you for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah) those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them."

As you can see that verse came in the context of the Jews. If you ask the Jews today why they reject Jesus, many will say because he claimed he was god and because the trinity is against Judaism and the teachings of the OT. However that is not the real reason. They rejected Jesus because he rejected the Pharisaic tradition and they refused to accept him as the Messiah. They were waiting for the Messiah to create for them a political state that dominates other nations. Jesus was concerned with the after life kingdom. Actually the Jews are still disputing why Jesus was refused by the earlier jewish community with some saying he was a Roman traitor and others saying he was a sorcerer who was a bastard child. But i still believe that its talking to the Jews. I have noticed that sometimes the Koran sems ambiguous but we should compare such verses with the other verses on the topic. But it seems from the context that verse of the people of the book is talking about, its about the Jews. But maybe I am wrong.

You are near spot-on, but the Nazarene and the Sabines uphold teachings of the Trinity. The compact taken with the Bani Israel included those who called themselves Nazarene.

""God took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way. "
So for their breaking their compact (meethaqahum) We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers.
And with those who say 'We are Christians' We took compact (meethaqahum); and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of. So We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred, till the Day of Resurrection; and God will assuredly tell them of the things they wrought." Surah 513-14

The Christian from the Gentiles - the Sabines - did not have a Book given to them to be reminded of.

As far as what you are saying regarding, I find it some what hard to see where Petra fit in all this. I have not looked into this as the subject is not that interesting to me.

No worries. If you ever decide to look into it, you have some starting points.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

Layth

Salam Stilllearning,

At the time of prophets (Mohd) death, how far had Islam (those who believed in his message) spread.
Do you believe in Hajj (Mecca or Jeruslaem not an issue)
Do you believe that Muslims must pray (3,2 or 5) in a given direction.
Apologies if you have already covered the above as I need to be clear about your views.

I cannot give a definitve answer to that, but it would seem certain that it had reached the area of Roman province (meaning today's Jordan/Palestine) as the Muslims did fight the Roman's twice around the area of the Dead Sea.
Yes, I believe in a physical Hajj.
I beleive in a phsyical Salat (3 times), but not that Muslims "must" do it as your questions states (Salat is for believers/mumineen).

Wakas

peace Umer, all,

I must say read this verse with sincerity. In this verse God is asking Muhammad SAWW not to follow the Qiblah of Jews and Christians (i.e., facing towards Jerusalem). This verse proves that Muslims are not going to face Jarusalem.

Unfortunately, in your haste you seem to have neglected the content, and thus consequences/logic of the verses under discussion. Allow me to quote

...And even if you come to those who have been given the Scripture with all signs/evidences they would not follow your focus / direction, and nor will you be a follower of their focus / direction, and nor some of them are followers of each others focus / direction........

Thus, logic dictates that 'the people of the book' must have a minimum of two different qiblah that they follow for your understanding to be logically acceptable.

Please explain this.

Thanks.

When we remove pre-conceived notions, and are not for or against a certain translation, things are much clearer.

Wakas

peace layth,

I beleive in a phsyical Salat (3 times)....

you have still not responded to my questions on your view, here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596565.210

raginggaijin

Peace be with you,

Apologies for the tardy reply.

AOA

Fascinating discussion. Few simple questions for Layth and raginagajjin

At the time of prophets (Mohd) death, how far had Islam (those who believed in his message) spread.

I only truly know what the Quran teaches, as that is pure, protected.

In the Quran, as far as the Arabian Peninsula which includes Mecca and Medina (Yathrib), including what was called at that time Nabataen Petra of the Byzantine Empire, formerly known as Midian.
The Arabs who stayed behind in Yathrib were asked to be forgiven after the success of the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers. Allah told them they would be called upon to fight another party of great might. With hindsight, we see now that was the Byzantine Empire, weakened after their wars with Persia

"Say to the Bedouins who were left behind 'You shall be called against a people possessed of great might' to fight them, or they surrender. If you obey, God will give you a goodly wage; but if you turn your backs, as you turned your backs before, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement.'" Surah 4816

Roman-Persian wars Surah 302-4, 1051-5

My beliefs on who the Jinn and Birds truly are is not like the majority.

Proof Jinn
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjC7dEMkDU

Proof Birds
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAho

Do you believe in Hajj (Mecca or Jeruslaem not an issue)

What do you mean by 'Hajj'? Based on this forum alone, there is contention.
If by 'Hajj' you mean 'argument/debate', no. The description in the Quran does not uphold this.
If by 'Hajj' you mean an annual pilgrimage - held every year - where an offering/sacrifice is brought to the Kaaba to feed the poor and well fed? And if you are unable to provide an offering, there are duties to uphold. Then yes.

No where in the Quran does Allah say Hajj is a once-in-a-lifetime activity.

Do you believe that Muslims must pray (3,2 or 5) in a given direction.

I believe we are to face the direction of the qiblah we believe we are given, but we do not pray to the qiblah. Our prayers are to Allah alone. The direction only shows whose teachings we follow. Surah 2143

?Say 'My Lord has commanded justice. Set your faces (wujoohakum) in every place of worship (masjidin) and call (waodAAoohu) on Him, making your religion (alddeena) sincerely His. As He originated you so you will return;? Surah 729

And as discussed earlier Masjid Al-Qiblatan possessed two facings - one to Jerusalem and one to Mecca - until recently when they removed the one facing Jerusalem.

"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars.
Stand there never. A mosque that was founded upon godfearing from the first day is worthier for thee to stand in; therein are men who love to cleanse themselves; and God loves those who cleanse themselves." Surah 9107-108

Prayer is another discussion, and I provide proofs for my beliefs on my YouTube channel as well.

Proof Prayer
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frh1di-97Io

peace rainagajjin I like your style, I have read most of this thread and your response to number of insults has been admirable as has your stance on insisting the discussion be based predominantly on Qurabic facts

Patience is but from Allah. Surah 16127
Doesn't mean I am perfect though.
I just can't believe anymore unless I have proof. Allah was Merciful and gave all humanity proof of Him. How can I not believe when I stand upon a clear sign from Him? )

Always confirm what you are told. The sin is in not confirming the Truth. 7531-32, 1736, 496

May Allah guide us to a right better than this.

Peace.

kgwithnob

...My beliefs on who the Jinn and Birds truly are is not like the majority.

Proof Jinn
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjC7dEMkDU

Proof Birds
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAho

Highlights above are from me.

According to the verses below, among numerous other ones, humans & jinns are two completely different creations, both ESSENTIALLY & CHRONOLOGICALLY.

5514

He created man of clay like the potter's.

5515

And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire.

1526

And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.

1527

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

Furthermore, chapter 55 in its entirety addresses the HUMANS & JINNS as two different beings and each will end up in one of the TWO SEPARATE paradises each deserves.

5538

So on that Day no question will be asked of man or jinni as to his sin, .

5546

But for him who fears the standing before his Lord, there will be two Gardens.

Peace,
Khalil

stillearning

AOA
So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given direction

These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for th direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.
Regards

kgwithnob

Salaam All,

The HAJJ pilgrimage has been incessantly performed since the time of the prophet Abraham up until today and is going to continue ceaselessly to the end of time on this Earth. Unless we assume that, there has been a noticeable interruption on a global scale for several generations that had made the new generations to forget about this very important global ritual and its place of performance, then the ?claim" of Jerusalem being the original location of ALMASJIDILHARAAM & The Qiblah might be a correct assumption.

Now, do we have any historical, NOT ?archeological?, recorded evidence of such a global historical ?EVENT?, supporting that assumption? I have not heard about it. If someone has, then let us know, so we can debate on it. Till then, we have to say that, historically & logically; ALMASJIDILHARAAM is located in the city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, with the Ka?bah right in the middle of its courtyard.

Peace,
Khalil

raginggaijin

This is the superstition I have to deal with...

Highlights above are from me.

According to the verses below, among numerous other ones, humans & jinns are two completely different creations, both ESSENTIALLY & CHRONOLOGICALLY.

5514

He created man of clay like the potter's.

5515

And the jinn did He create of smokeless fire.

1526

And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.

1527

And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

I want you to notice what you just posted

"We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire."

The Jinn were created before the Nasi.

I also want you to note you are using the Arabic word for 'Jinn', but you translate (Nasi) into 'Man'. So already a deception is occurring. But we'll get to that.

Jinn were created before Nasi, which shows Nasi are successors of the Jinn. This is upheld in the Quran.

Successor (Khalif) Surah 230, 3170, 49, 6133, 6165, 717, 769, 774, 7142, 7150, 7169, 9118, 1014, 1073, 1092, 1311, 1959, 2128, 2276, 2762, 349, 3539, 369, 3645, 3826, 4114, 4125, 4142, 4360, 4621, 6715, 7227
?And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a successor (khaleefatan).' They said, 'What, wilt Thou set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Thy praise and call Thee Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'? Surah 230

"What, do you wonder that a reminder from your Lord should come to you by the lips of a man from among you? That he may warn you; and remember when He appointed you as successors (khulafaa) after the people of Noah, and increased you in stature broadly; remember God's bounties; haply you will prosper.'" Surah 769

"And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?" Surah 7169

"And to the three who were left behind (khullifoo), until, when the earth became strait for them, for all its breadth, and their souls became strait for them, and they thought that there was no shelter from God except in Him, then He turned towards them, that they might also turn; surely God turns, and is All-compassionate." Surah 9118

"Had We willed, We would have made angels among you successors (yakhlufoona) in the earth." Surah 4360

Allah states clearly Nasi are made from the seed of another people.

"Thy Lord is All-sufficient, Merciful. If He will, He can put you away, and leave after you, to succeed you (wayastakhlif), what He will, as He produced you from the seed (dhurriyyati) of another (kharna) people (qawmin)." Surah 6133

He even gives details how Adam (pbuh) was made.

?He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible, the All-mighty, the All-compassionate, Who has created all things well. And He originated the creation of humans (al-insani) of clay (min teenin), then He fashioned his descendant (naslahu) of an extraction (sulalatin) of low (maheenin) water (ma-in), then He shaped (sawwahu) him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show.? Surah 326-9

There is only one Nasi spoken of in the Quran who was shaped and had Allah's ruh breathed into him - Adam (pbuh) Surah 1529, 329, 3872

If all human beings sprung from the joining of one couple, Allah would not make distinction between the bloodline of the Prophets (pbut), as we all would be from the seed of Adam (pbuh).

(dhurriyyat&#299 offspring Surah 2124, 2128, 2266, 334, 336, 338, 49, 684, 687, 6133, 7172, 7173, 1083, 1338, 1437, 1440, 173, 1762, 1850, 1958, 2927, 3641, 3777, 37113, 4615, 5221, 5726
Seed of Adam Surah 333, 683-87, 7172, 172-3, 1958. 5726

?We have honoured the Children of Adam and carried them on land and sea, and provided them with good things, and preferred them greatly over many of those We created.? Surah 1770

"That is Our argument, which We bestowed upon Abraham as against his people. We raise up in degrees whom We will; surely thy Lord is All-wise, All-knowing.
And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob -- each one We guided, And Noah We guided before; and of his seed (dhurriyyatihi) David and Solomon, Job and Joseph, Moses and Aaron -- even so We recompense the good-doers -- Zachariah and John, Isa and Elias; each was of the righteous; Ishmael and Elisha, Jonah and Lot - each one We preferred above all beings; and of their fathers, and of their seed (wadhurriyytihim), and of their brethren (wa-ikh'wnihim); and We elected them, and We guided them to a straight path." Surah 683-87

"And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' The seed (dhurriyyata) of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant." Surah 172-3

"These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping." Surah 1958

"And We sent Noah, and Abraham, and We appointed the Prophecy and the Book to be among their seed (dhurriyyatihim and some of them are guided, and many of them are ungodly." Surah 5726

The Jinn are human beings.

Jinn are Christians ? Byzantines ? who accepted the Quran Surah 721-18
Jinn are Yahudians ? Persians ? who accepted the Quran Surah 4629-30
Jew and Christian polytheists who lead astray Surah 2105, 2120, 2135, 2140, 367, 395, 3151, 3186, 582, 6106, 6137, 6161, 931-33, 10105, 16120, 2217, 981-6

Jinn are foreigners among Nasi Surah 6128-131, 2217, 3412-13, 738, 7179
'Ajam' ? ?Non-Arab? or ?Persian? Surah 16103, 4144, 26198
Roman-Persian wars Surah 302-4, 1051-5
Solomon?s Jinn in Quran Surah 2716-41, 3412-13
Solomon's Jinn in previous Books I Kings 513-17, II Chron. 217-18, II Chron. 44-6

But, but, but... They are made of SMOKELESS FIRE!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoneoneleventeen.

The same people who uphold these superstitious beliefs are often among the many who point to the scientific miracles in the Quran.

One such miracle is Surah 2130

"Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?" Surah 2130

This is from the Arberry Quran, translated in 1950. The Yusuf Ali Quran, translated in the 1920s reads

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Surah 2130

In 1978, the Nobel Prize was awarded for the theory of the Big Bang. This theory postulates that the universe was one mass - a monoblock - that was blown apart and sent out into the void.

Press release for 1978 Nobel Peace Prize
http//nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1978/press.html

"A theory developed by the American physicist Gamow and his associates suggested that this synthesis took place at the beginning of the existence of the universe. It is known from studies of the spectra of stars and galaxies that the universe is at present expanding uniformly. This means that at a certain point, 15 billion years ago, the universe was very compact; it is thus tempting to assume that the universe was created by a cosmic explosion, or 'big bang', although other explanations are possible. This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees. Only at those temperatures can various nuclear reactions take place such that chemical elements could be built up from the elementary particles assumed to be present from the very beginning."

Here Scientists - the largest group of unbelievers I know of who cannot believe in something without proof - are showing how the components of all life and matter in the universe was created in this one Big Bang of intense heat and expansion.

Let's repeat that "This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees."
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.
This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees.

Jinn created before Nasi of a released, scorching fire Surah 1527, 5515
?And He created (Wakhalaqa) the jinn of (aljanna min) release (marijin) of fire (min narin).? Surah 5515
?and the jinn created We before of fire scorching (alssamoomi).? Surah 1527

While someone who upholds superstition sees evil fire creatures lurking in the aether, I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself.

You would think, if the Quran still speaks of the Jinn, there would be some way to know them from the Nasi. After all, Allah makes it clear in Surah 1145-6 that the Jinn are part of the Nasi

"Allathee yuwaswisu fee sudoori alnnasi Mina aljinnati waalnnasi" 1145-6
"who whispers in the breasts of nasi, of jinn and nasi.'" Surah 1145-6

If we are ALL Nasi, but there are still Jinn in and among the Nasi, there must be some indication of these Jinn that still remains if they are humans, right? If the Quran says it, then we should find some indication of it.

Neanderthal DNA still found in modern Homo Sapiens

Neanderthals, Humans Interbred?First Solid DNA Evidence
"The next time you're tempted to call some oaf a Neanderthal, you might want to take a look in the mirror.
According to a new DNA study, most humans have a little Neanderthal in them?at least 1 to 4 percent of a person's genetic makeup.
The study uncovered the first solid genetic evidence that "modern" humans?or Homo sapiens?interbred with their Neanderthal neighbors, who mysteriously died out about 30,000 years ago.
What's more, the Neanderthal-modern human mating apparently took place in the Middle East, shortly after modern humans had left Africa, not in Europe?as has long been suspected."

Read more http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

Study Neanderthal DNA Lives On in Modern Humans
"Still, other paleoanthropologists say the discovery is not entirely unexpected. There is ample archaeological evidence ? including tools, habitation sites and fossils ? that Neanderthals and early modern humans may have coexisted in the Middle East as much as 80,000 years ago, and certainly in Europe 30,000 to 45,000 years ago. What has been missing until now is the genetic evidence.

"The fact that they found it across the board says that the evidence must be very widespread across modern humans," says Erik Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo., who has long argued that the human fossils he has studied in France, Romania, the Czech Republic and other places show mixed ancestry. "If you can find evidence after 30,000 years of genetic shifting, then it must have been pretty important or prominent then." Trinkaus speculates that the genetic flow between Neanderthals and early modern humans might have been as high as 10% to 20%.
The new finding may prompt a tweaking of the well-known Out of Africa theory, which in its strictest interpretation says a small group of early modern humans left Africa and outcompeted and replaced all other hominids without any interbreeding. The alternate theory, known as multiregionalism, argues that distinct populations of modern humans developed simultaneously around the world and along the same evolutionary lines by swapping genes.
"What we falsify here is the very hard Out of Africa theory," said P??bo. "We show that outside Africa there is this 1% to 4% that came from archaic humans. Of course, it's totally possible that archaic forms that we don't know contributed to Africans today. I don't think we should take this as evidence that only people outside Africa have some 'caveman' biology within them."
According to Trinkaus, many paleoanthropologists have long believed that early modern humans and Neanderthals interbred. "People have been saying this for decades," he argues. "The minority position was the position that there was no gene flow. Most people who work with the fossil record support some level of admixture."

Whatever our mixing, it is human uniqueness that has also been revealed by the sequencing. By comparing the Neanderthal genome with those of modern humans, the team identified a small number of genetic changes that were newly evolved in modern humans. Some of the changes may have arisen as a result of genetic drift, but others seem to have been positively selected for ? meaning they swept through populations rapidly, possibly because they gave us some advantage."

Read more http//www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568-2,00.html

So we do find remnants of the Jinn - Neanderthal man - who was created before Homo Sapien man. We find this in the DNA of Homo Sapien - the Nasi.

I don't believe in a 'Creation' theory, where 'man' was poof suddenly made after an old man in a beard rolled up his sleeves and sculpted him.
I don't believe in a 'Evolution' theory, where 'man' is a series of lucky breaks in evolutionary shifts in such a manner that it is a leap of faith in and of itself.
I believe in an Intervention theory, where Allah guided the path of each successor. Allah says 'Be' and it is, and it is in accord with the Sunnah He has instilled into this world. A world that upholds logic, reason, and evidence-based research.

Why would someone want to hide that Jinn are humans, who hold the same ties to Nasi?

"Say 'If the Last Abode with God is yours exclusively, and not for other people, then long for death -- if you speak truly.'" Surah 294
"Say 'You of Jewry, if you assert that you are the friends of God, apart from other men, then do you long for death, if you speak truly.'" Surah 626

Hebrew ?nasi? president, prince, ruler
Lev. 422, Eze. 442-18, Ezra 18

What are the common translations for 'Nasi' in Arabic men, people, rulers/viceroys

From the Babylonian Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean&quot, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Baba Kamma 113a Jews may use lies ("subterfuges&quot to circumvent a Gentile.
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Baba Mezia 24a If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen&quot it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

It's the same false teachings recycled into what is taught in the religions of man.

"Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings saying, 'We have heard and we disobey' and 'Hear, and be thou not given to hear' and 'Observe us,' twisting with their tongues and traducing religion. If they had said, 'We have heard and obey' and 'Hear' and 'Regard us,' it would have been better for them, and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief so they believe not except a few." Surah 446

"People of the Book, now there has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book, and effacing many things. There has come to you from God a light, and a Book Manifest" Surah 515

"Then the evildoers of them substituted a saying other than that which had been said to them; so We sent down upon them wrath out of heaven for their evildoing." Surah 7162

And let's not forget the Birds.

?And Solomon was David's heir, and he said, 'Nasi (alnnasu), we have been taught the speech of the birds (alttayri), and we have been given of everything; surely this is indeed the manifest bounty.'? Surah 2716

Solomon wasn't the only person who knew 'the speech of birds'. The Nasi were taught it as well.
Phoenicia(from the Greek Greek Phoin?k&#275, was an ancient civilization in Canaan which covered most of the western, coastal part of the fertile Crescent. "Phoenicia" is really a Classical Greek term used to refer to the region of the major Canaanite port towns, and does not correspond exactly to a cultural identity that would have been recognised by the Phoenicians themselves. It is uncertain to what extent the Phoenicians viewed themselves as a single ethnicity. Their civilization was organized in city-states, similar to ancient Greece. However In terms of archaeology, language, life style and religion, there is little to set the Phoenicians apart as markedly different from other cultures of Canaan. As Canaanites, they were unique in their remarkable seafaring achievements.
Around 1600 B.C. the Phoenicians invented 22 ?magic signs? called the alphabet, and passed them onto the world. The Phoenicians gave the alphabet to the Greeks who adopted it; the evolution of the Phoenician Alphabet to Etruscan alphabet to the Latin letters of present-day. The Phoenicians were the first state-level society to make extensive use of the alphabet. The Phoenician phonetic alphabet is generally believed to be the ancestor of almost all modern alphabets, although it did not contain any vowels (these were added later by the Greeks). From a traditional linguistic perspective, they spoke Phoenician, a Canaanite dialect. However, due to the very slight differences in language, and the insufficient records of the time, whether Phoenician formed a separate and united dialect, or was merely a superficially defined part of a broader language continuum, is unclear. Through their maritime trade, the Phoenicians spread the use of the alphabet to North Africa and Europe, where it was adopted by the Greeks, who later passed it on to the Etruscans, who in turn transmitted it to the Romans.

Hudhud, aka 'Hoopoe' - the bird with the crest on it's head?

http//creagrus.home.montereybay.com/Hoopoe_madj-crest.jpg

A Greek helmet
http//www.lawrensnest.com/images/GRK6058BP.jpg

(The Hoopoe is also Israel's National Bird, for those interested.)

The Phoenicans were assimilated into the Greek empire, which was assimilated into the Roman empire to become the Byzantine Empire. What is the flag of the Byzantine Empire?

http//www.glogster.com/media/4/13/31/47/13314752.png

But hey, I'm the crazy one. Right?

Furthermore, chapter 55 in its entirety addresses the HUMANS & JINNS as two different beings and each will end up in one of the TWO SEPARATE paradises each deserves.

5538

So on that Day no question will be asked of man or jinni as to his sin, .

5546

But for him who fears the standing before his Lord, there will be two Gardens.

This is where your superstition gets you into trouble, as you lay your beliefs over what is actually taught.

There are 3 types of people described in the Quran.

3 types of people Surah 746-48, 567-11

The Foremost
The People of the Right Hand
The People of the Left Hand

The Foremost/Outstrippers are
"a throng of the ancients and how few of the later folk." Surah 5613-14

The People of the Right Hand are
"A throng of the ancients and a throng of the later folk." Surah 5639-40

Allah names both partitions, 'The ancients (al-awwaleena) and the later folk (waal-akhireena)' in Surah 5649
The People of the Left Hand abide in the Fire. Surah 5649-56

The two Gardens are for the Foremost and the People of the Right Hand.

The Foremost are in elevated rank, and are in better reward in the Hereafter. Allah teaches of the believers in Paradise, those in the Ramparts, and those in the Fire

"The inhabitants of Paradise will call to the inhabitants of the Fire 'We have found that. which our Lord promised us true; have you found what your Lord promised you true?' 'Yes,' they will say. And then a herald shall proclaim between them 'God's curse is on the evildoers
who bar from God's way, desiring to make it crooked, disbelieving in the world to come.
And between them is a veil, and on the Ramparts are men knowing each by their mark, who shall call to the inhabitants of Paradise 'Peace be upon you! They have not entered it, for all their eagerness.'" Surah 744-46

So the Ramparts are one Garden for the Foremost, while the other Garden is for the People of the Right Hand, who are believers but are not foremost in deeds.

Now, you are more than welcome to believe in invisible fire spirits, and that Allah sculpted a man out of clay and made him come alive like Pinocchio, and that Prophets (pbut) were able to speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion.
But don't expect me to believe it when there is no proof for it.

Bring your proof, then post it here so we are not derailing this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602635.msg281831#msg281831

Peace.

raginggaijin

Peace and blessings be upon you and yours,

If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for th direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper.

The issue also lies in that Jerusalem does not allow sacrifices to be made within the precincts of the Temple, much less in the Dome of the Rock or Jerusalem. Sacrifices have been halted since the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

The ploy of the Yahud playing at being Muslims is an old trick. The attempts at division between Mecca and Jerusalem began during the time of Muhammad (pbuh), as proven by the Masjid made to divide the believers Masjid Al-Qiblatan aka The Mosque of Two Qiblahs. Surah 9107

Allah even states

"The buildings they have built will not cease to be a point of doubt within their hearts, unless it be that their hearts are cut into pieces; God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 9110

The shift to a qiblah inside Masjid Al-Haram occurred by those who came after. Hadith teaches to face the Kaaba, not Masjid Al-Haram - the Masjid that surrounds the Kaaba.

"Stand there never. A mosque that was founded upon godfearing from the first day is worthier for thee to stand in; therein are men who love to cleanse themselves; and God loves those who cleanse themselves." Surah 9108

Allah is clear the qiblah would be a difficult test except for those who He guides.

"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143

Even now, ask any person who calls themselves 'Muslim' what their qiblah is, and then ask them to show you the building.
How many point to the Kaaba, Bayt al-Atiq, Bayt al-Haram?
How many point to the building that surrounds the Kaaba, called Masjid Al-Haram?

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149

I'm not of the doubters.
My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.

May Allah guide us closer to the Truth.

Peace.

Layth

Dear Stilllearning,

So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given direction

That is not accurately what I have responded, but I will jump to the subject of your post to save time.

These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for the direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.

I understand from your post you are arguing that we should "follow the majority" and therefore agree that if the group consensus says a certain thing, then that must be accurate?

Thus, using your same logic, we should surrender to the fact that "Jesus is the son of God" because the majority (if not nearly all) Christians say so. And, since Jesus spread his message to various cities at the time, was around for a number of years preaching his message - then it must be true?

This is what God tells us about the "majority"

6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

As for the other part that you have also missed...It is God's Sunna/Way that after every prophet is sent, the devil is allowed to make corruption in his teachings so as to lead people astray

6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - mankind and Jinn devils - to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.

Finally, before making sarcastic comments about this fact not being known until the 22nd century, a little reading in the Quran and in history would have set your path straight

Quran talks about a Qibla shift during the life of the prophet;
Archaeology records the first Qibla as Jerusalem - a fact undisputed by nearly all sects;
Quranic verses match the area of Jerusalem as the site for the Masjid Al-Haram (not Mecca);
Quran even calls such place "Bakka" - a name common to Jerusalem, but not to Mecca;
Early Muslims had a civil war in which they slaughtered one another - obviously over some major issues;
Muslim Khalifa (AbdulMalik Bin Marwan) sent an army to destroy the Mecca worshipers and to destroy the Kaaba - while at the same time renovating and decorating the Dome of the Rock.

there are so many other points that have been rained in this thread that you can read at your leisure...But the first step is to let go of your attachment to the "majority" and stick rather to the "truth".

Layth

Salam,

Now, do we have any historical, NOT ?archeological?, recorded evidence of such a global historical ?EVENT?, supporting that assumption? I have not heard about it. If someone has, then let us know, so we can debate on it. Till then, we have to say that, historically & logically; ALMASJIDILHARAAM is located in the city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, with the Ka?bah right in the middle of its courtyard.

You mean like the fact the Old Testament speaks of pilgrimage to Jerusalem (not Mecca) and that people were facing it in their Salat?

Pilgrimage to Mecca before the 8th or 9th century have no record of ever occurring (keep in mind Abraham was nearly 7,000 years ago). As for Jerusalem, we have records of its pilgrimage dating back to Roman times (2,000 years back) and even older in the Old Testament (a Book 5,000-6,000 or so years old).

Bigmo

AOA
So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given direction

These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and the same for th direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.
Regards

I have talked about this in the Hadith Discussion section when discussing difference between Hadith and Sunnah. I call it "hidden assumptions". Koranist from a Muslim background suffer from this. We assume that there was no pluralism at Muhammad's time or that there was no different way to pray or even different Qiblas. We assume that there was a common standard ritual and therefore we make assumptions as the one you did. I also relied on such assumptions but there is no reason why the early Muslims could had different Qiblas and performed Haj variantly and some may not have even believed in performing Haj. In such a scenario later authorities could have had an easier time manufacturing a standard ritual as there wasn't an already standard ritual for them to change but simply to create one.

Think about that.

Patanahi

Yesterday, I was listening to an audio CD (a lecture by a Javed Ahmed Ghamdi ? translation of Quranic verses 2134 ? 2143). From what I understood or misunderstood that he emphasized about the context of change of Qiblah by referring to verses 2134141 whereby Allah?s message was rejected by Yahud and Nasara due their prejudice.
As a result, they were deprived by Allah of their (earlier elevated) status including the change of Qiblah from previously followed on to the one now prescribed by Allah after depriving rejecters off their elevated status due to their rejection.
Therefore, upon enquiry by ?Al Sufahao? about change from previous Qiblah (2142) (i.e. the Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier), Allah guided believers how to respond to their query. And then Allah explained in 2143 why He initially ordered believers to follow previous Qiblah (ie Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier) just to test if new comers would follow Messenger in obeying Allah?s order.
To summarize, upon attaining Itmm al-hujjah (various verses in chapter 2 that ended on 2141) on Yahud and Nasara, Allah deprived the rejecters from the earlier recognized status and guided believers to follow prescribed Qiblah which is in practice till today.

Just wanted to share my understanding with you people and would like to have feedback from all who can help me gain some understanding of the matter.

Regarding one of the posts from Bigmo, asking me why I need to be specific or too concerned about the Qibla location. Actually since Masjid Al Haram is our Qiblah, therefore, I understand that we can take Salat from there, which means I get justification for following the time/way/form of salat as it is offered in Masjid Al Haram (based on one of the lectures of IIPC.tv (Muhammad Sheikh)).

Bigmo

Yesterday, I was listening to an audio CD (a lecture by a Javed Ahmed Ghamdi ? translation of Quranic verses 2134 ? 2143). From what I understood or misunderstood that he emphasized about the context of change of Qiblah by referring to verses 2134141 whereby Allah?s message was rejected by Yahud and Nasara due their prejudice.
As a result, they were deprived by Allah of their (earlier elevated) status including the change of Qiblah from previously followed on to the one now prescribed by Allah after depriving rejecters off their elevated status due to their rejection.
Therefore, upon enquiry by ?Al Sufahao? about change from previous Qiblah (2142) (i.e. the Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier), Allah guided believers how to respond to their query. And then Allah explained in 2143 why He initially ordered believers to follow previous Qiblah (ie Qiblah followed by Yahud earlier) just to test if new comers would follow Messenger in obeying Allah?s order.
To summarize, upon attaining Itmm al-hujjah (various verses in chapter 2 that ended on 2141) on Yahud and Nasara, Allah deprived the rejecters from the earlier recognized status and guided believers to follow prescribed Qiblah which is in practice till today.

Just wanted to share my understanding with you people and would like to have feedback from all who can help me gain some understanding of the matter.

Regarding one of the posts from Bigmo, asking me why I need to be specific or too concerned about the Qibla location. Actually since Masjid Al Haram is our Qiblah, therefore, I understand that we can take Salat from there, which means I get justification for following the time/way/form of salat as it is offered in Masjid Al Haram (based on one of the lectures of IIPC.tv (Muhammad Sheikh)).

Then ask Ghamdi about this verse

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing

raginggaijin

Then ask Ghamdi about this verse

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing

The qiblah is only an indication of whose teachings you say you are following.

Face Jerusalem Yahudian and Nazarene.
Don't face a qiblah Sabine Christian.
Face a fire Zoroastrian.
Face the Kaaba Islamist
Face Masjid Al-Haram Muslim.

It isn't righteousness to face a qiblah. Righteousness is the deeds you do that show if you are upholding the teachings you profess to be following, or not.

Peace.