Like Polytheist ingrates, atheists too are running away from 19 like zebras
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The highlights above are from me.
What if you are inside ALMASJIDULHARAAM? Which direction do you suggest people should face inside "THE SACRED MOSQUE" to perform their SALAAT?
Peace,
KhalilYou still uphold pagan Namaz, that requires you to perform genuflections with a group. Even in describing salat, Rashad Khalifa recycled teachings of the ancients; pagan Namaz as Orthodox Jews who follow the Babylonian Talmud (Persian Pharisees), and the Zoroastrians (Persians) who follow the Babylonian Avesta.
Syncretism Prayer
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pC0lZ856MSalat is ordained times to study the Quran.
If you are in Masjid Al-Haram at the time of salat, you would be silent and listen, then prostrate after recital.
You are inside Masjid Al-Haram. No matter what direction you face, you face Masjid Al-Haram."And when the Koran is recited, give you ear to it and be silent; haply so you will find mercy." Surah 7204
The Kaaba is the place of sacrifice. Allah tells you this in the Quran. Why do you disobey and uphold teachings beside what He revealed?
"There are things therein profitable to you unto a stated term; thereafter their lawful place of sacrifice is at the Ancient House (ila albayti alAAateeqi)." Surah 2233
"Lakum feeha manafiAAu ila ajalin musamman thumma mahilluha ila albayti alAAateeqi" Surah 2233"O believers, slay not the game while you are in pilgrim sanctity; whosoever of you slays it wilfully, there shall be recompense -- the like of what he has slain, in flocks as shall be judged by two men of equity among you, an offering to reach the Kaaba; or expiation -- food for poor persons or the equivalent of that in fasting, so that he may taste the mischief of his action. God has pardoned what is past; but whoever offends again, God will take vengeance on him, God is All-mighty, Vengeful.
Permitted to you is the game of the sea and the food of it, as a provision for you and for the journeyers; but forbidden to you is the game of the land, so long as you remain in pilgrim sanctity; and fear God, unto whom you shall be mustered.
God has appointed the Kaaba (alkaAAbata), the Holy House (albayta alharama), as an establishment for men, and the holy month; the offering, and the necklaces -- that, that you may know that God knows all that is in the heavens and in the earth; and that God has knowledge of everything." Surah 595-97Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. Bayt is House, Masjid is Mosque.
Holy House (albayta alharama) Surah 52, 597, 1437
The House (albayti) Surah 2125, 396, 835, 2226
Ancient House (albayti alAAateeqi) Surah 2229, 2233We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba.
"And when We made the House (Bayt) a resort for men and a security. And Take ye the station (maqami) of Abraham for a place of prayer. And We enjoined Abraham and Ishmael, saying Purify My House (Bayt) for those who visit and those who abide for devotion and those who bow down, those who prostrated themselves." Surah 2125
Study the Quran diligently, and do not depend on my opinion. Turn to Allah as He is Guide.
I only bring proof to show why I believe what I believe based on the revelation The Quran.
I only bring proof to show why I cannot believe as you believe.Peace.
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My Commander commanded me to do the following in case of mismatch of theology which may result to being kafirs for one another.
1091 Say O rejecters,
1092 I do not serve what you serve,
1093 Nor do you serve what I serve,
1094 Nor will I serve what you serve,
1095 Nor will you serve what I serve,
1096 To you is your system, and to me is mine.Peaceful teaching indeed, we just warn each other according to our understanding and maintain peace. )
Peace be unto you,
Well said, and I thank Allah for bringing this reminder. Even I can get caught up in striving to prove why I believe what I believe.
May Allah pour down patience upon the believers from Most High.
Peace and blessings.
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Brother Khalil,
Leave him be. This guy seems to have some sort of beef with me because he can?t hold his ground against me when it comes to certain topics. Personally I believe he has some problems when it comes to reading and comprehension but that's just me. Moreover a few days ago he falsely accused me of slander when I have never done such a thing to anyone on this forum.Question for Mr.Raging
?When will this happen? I do not know when but I have a strong feeling that this will take place before the end of 1990. Only God knows the exact time ?Mr Raging read the lines again VERY SLOWLY. Does it sound like a prophecy or an interpretation of the smoke prophecy??? Think it over and be patient. It may take a few hours perhaps days.
My advice to Mr Raging Do some more reading. It keeps the brain healthy.
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PEACE,
My commander commanded me to do the following in case of mismatch of theology which may result to being kafirs for one another.
1091 Say O rejecters,
1092 I do not serve what you serve,
1093 Nor do you serve what I serve,
1094 Nor will I serve what you serve,
1095 Nor will you serve what I serve,
1096 To you is your system, and to me is mine.Peaceful teaching indeed, we just warn each other according to our understanding and maintain peace. )
Anyways, yoy guys should consider making a Sitcom out of your frequent collisions...lol
PEACE be on you, May Allah be pleased with you (that do not reject)
----------------- Student of Allah
IJTIHAAD/Individually striving to achieve the truth, WITHIN the framework of our faith Islam is a must. So, don't you worry, even a bit, as long as it takes place in a peaceful and respectful manner. Chapter 109 is about the DISBELIEVERS/KAAFIROON. It is NOT about the disputes between MUSLIMS themselves.
Peace,
Khalil -
IJTIHAAD/Individually striving to achieve the truth, WITHIN the framework of our faith Islam is a must. So, don't you worry, even a bit, as long as it takes place in a peaceful and respectful manner. Chapter 109 is about the DISBELIEVERS/KAAFIROON. It is NOT about the disputes between MUSLIMS themselves.
If you associate partners with Allah by following teachings He did not reveal, are you submitting your will to Him?
"Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow no friends other than He; little do you remember." Surah73
If you are not submitting your will to Allah, are you a Muslim?
"If two parties of the believers fight, put things right between them; then, if one of them is insolent against the other, fight the insolent one till it reverts to God's commandment. If it reverts, set things right between them equitably, and be just. Surely God loves the just." Surah 499
"O believers, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. If you should quarrel on anything, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the Last Day; that is better, and fairer in the issue." Surah 459
The only way we can refer to Allah and the Messenger is by returning to the Quran and studying what was revealed by Allah to His Messenger.
"Those who dispute concerning the signs of God, without any authority come to them, in their breasts is only pride, that they shall never attain. So seek thou refuge in God; surely He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 4056
"Those who disbelieve and bar from God's way, God will send their works astray.
But those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what is sent down to Muhammad -- and it is the truth from their Lord -- He will acquit them of their evil deeds, and dispose their minds aright.
That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Even so God strikes their similitudes for men. " Surah 471-3Ayats to ponder upon.
Peace.
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This is so very clearly seen, that people are talking, mentioning, remembering, revering and worshipping their Rubbs.
Some are talking, revering, remembering, worshipping and serving Allah.
Some are revering, remembering, worshipping, serving,------and-----helplessly defending their mortal rubb, who has died and become dust into dust.
=================================================================
Did the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (SAW), the bringer and deliverer of Al-Quran, know Code 19-----???
No, never!-----Indeed, never!
This Satanic Code 19 Theory finally ended up taking out two of Allah's Signs, dared to alter Allah's Holy and Exalted Quran.
Is Allah's Quran not in Allah's Protection???
How can some satan insan or satan jinn intrude into it???
Who is a kafir of Allah, then???Edip Yuksel and all the 19ers!-------Tell!
If someone follows Allah's Quran truly,---and never happens to know the so-called "miraculous" Code 19 all his life, what harms does he come to???
Is he lost?
Will he go to hellfire?The differnce between Al-Quran and Code 19 is clear.
It looks like Al-Quran---Vs---Code 19!!! -
IJTIHAAD/Individually striving to achieve the truth, WITHIN the framework of our faith Islam is a must. So, don't you worry, even a bit, as long as it takes place in a peaceful and respectful manner. Chapter 109 is about the DISBELIEVERS/KAAFIROON. It is NOT about the disputes between MUSLIMS themselves.
Peace,
KhalilSalam,
This time, let me try to express my thoughts from another perspective. It is the theory of relativity, when 1st party is saying that 2nd party is rejector because of throwing out verses from the Book that Allah himself preserved. And, when 2nd party is saying that 1st party not acknowledging a numerology code makes them rejectors of the message. Both parties are considering each other rejectors. From a neutral stand point, it depends on the frame of reference who one should call a rejector.
And undoubtedly, I agree with you that we must strive to find the truth the way you mentioned. But striving to prove each other rejectors and at the same time calling the process "dispute between muslims" sounds hypocritical. Not that I consider anyone of you any less or more muslim than I am myself, for Allah knows the unseen , Allah knows what is in your hearts. Not me.
---------- Student of Allah
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From James Randi <randi></randi>
Date Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 1006 PM
Subject 19 -- or any other number
I assume that the person who wrote you is aware that you have published his email on here and he is ok about that?
peace -
This is so very clearly seen, that people are talking, mentioning, remembering, revering and worshipping their Rubbs.
Some are talking, revering, remembering, worshipping and serving Allah.
Some are revering, remembering, worshipping, serving,------and-----helplessly defending their mortal rubb, who has died and become dust into dust.
=================================================================
Did the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (SAW), the bringer and deliverer of Al-Quran, know Code 19-----???
No, never!-----Indeed, never!
This Satanic Code 19 Theory finally ended up taking out two of Allah's Signs, dared to alter Allah's Holy and Exalted Quran.
Is Allah's Quran not in Allah's Protection???
How can some satan insan or satan jinn intrude into it???
Who is a kafir of Allah, then???Edip Yuksel and all the 19ers!-------Tell!
If someone follows Allah's Quran truly,---and never happens to know the so-called "miraculous" Code 19 all his life, what harms does he come to???
Is he lost?
Will he go to hellfire?The differnce between Al-Quran and Code 19 is clear.
It looks like Al-Quran---Vs---Code 19!!!Question Excluding the code 19 of the Quran was Muhammad aware of any of the other Mathematical and Scientific signs in the Quran?
Am I to assume that you also believe that this is the work of the devil since Muhammad never mentioned them???
PS Before you commit bigotry against God?s Signs examine them carefully. Look before you leap. Those who make fun of God?s signs without first examining them carefully have mocked God and they will not be successful in this life nor in the Hereafter.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
Questions to ask about Sura 9
How many people have ever asked themselves why is it that Sura 9 is the ONLY SURA THAT DOESN?T START WITH BISMILLAH-IR-RAHMAN-IR-RAHEEM?
Here?s a food for thought Did God know before hand that this Sura was going to be tampered with which is why he decided not to begin with the usually BISMILLAH?
Historically why is it that during the compilation of the Quran that Sura 9 was recognized by many witnesses as having only 127 verses and not 129 verses (which was only acknowledged by ONE MAN. ) ?
How can Sura 9 be a Medinan Sura yet contain two Meccan Verses? (9128-129)
http//www.submission.org/false-verses.html
http//www.submission.org/tampering.html
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Question Excluding the code 19 of the Quran was Muhammad aware of any of the other Mathematical and Scientific signs in the Quran?
Am I to assume that you also believe that this is the work of the devil since Muhammad never mentioned them???
Strawman and leading argument.
You base the premise that Code 19 is a sign from Allah, when Allah is clear that the Quran is His sign.
No where in the Quran does it state to follow or uphold a mathematic code.
You cannot prove otherwise.PS Before you commit bigotry against God?s Signs examine them carefully. Look before you leap. Those who make fun of God?s signs without first examining them carefully have mocked God and they will not be successful in this life nor in the Hereafter.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
No one is mocking Allah. Disbelief in teachings of satans does not equate to mocking Allah. It is in upholding the deen of Al-Islam, by following only what Allah revealed, that we are proving our belief.
Those who uphold what Allah revealed, and do not follow guardians beside Him, are doing exactly what Allah commands. Surah 73Questions to ask about Sura 9
How many people have ever asked themselves why is it that Sura 9 is the ONLY SURA THAT DOESN?T START WITH BISMILLAH-IR-RAHMAN-IR-RAHEEM?
How does understanding why Surah 9 does not start with an unnumbered Bismillah help you in doing good deeds?
How does any of what you speak of help you in serving Allah? Can you understand the Quran without your Code 19?You have not responded to anything brought forth that refutes your statements concerning Rashad Khalifa and his disciple Edip Yuksel.
Here?s a food for thought Did God know before hand that this Sura was going to be tampered with which is why he decided not to begin with the usually BISMILLAH?
Where is your proof Surah 9 was to be tampered with? Because Allah is clear Falsehood will not enter the Quran in the past or the future. Surah 4142
"falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142
You are saying Allah did not protect the Quran as He promised.
Who is the one mocking Allah's signs when they say Allah did not do as He promised?His
torically why is it that during the compilation of the Quran that Sura 9 was recognized by many witnesses as having only 127 verses and not 129 verses (which was only acknowledged by ONE MAN. ) ?
Where is your proof from the Quran that Surah 9 is corrupt?
Allah stated falsehood would never enter it. You say falsehood did, and was there for 1400 years. Where is your proof?
Bring your proof. Explanation is not proof.
If you cannot bring proof Allah was unable to protect the Quran for 1400 years, why do you say that which you cannot prove?How can Sura 9 be a Medinan Sura yet contain two Meccan Verses? (9128-129)
http//www.submission.org/false-verses.html
http//www.submission.org/tampering.htmlWait, now you believe Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca now?
Or do you continue to uphold that Jerusalem is Masjid Al-Haram?
Which is it today?Further, where is your proof Surah 9 was revealed in Medina? Bring proof from the Quran, not hadith, to prove this claim.
Surah 9 discusses the treaties made at Masjid Al-Haram in Surah 97
"How should the idolaters have a covenant with God and His Messenger? -- excepting those with whom you made covenant at the Holy Mosque (almasjidi alharami); so long as they go straight with you, do you go straight with them; surely God loves the godfearing." Surah 97
The fight against the disbelievers who continue to oppose Allah and His Messenger begins after the 4 months of peace. Surah 91-5
They are in Masjid Al-Haram at this time.
After the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers settled in Mecca, the disbelievers who were dispersed broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet again. They had 4 months of peace before the fighting began. Read Surah 9 again, as you will see they are in Masjid Al-Haram at that time, and those who were behind the expulsion the first time"Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and purposed to expel the Messenger, beginning the first time against you? Are you afraid of them? You would do better to be afraid of God, if you are believers." Surah 913
The disbelievers who fought the Prophet (pbuh) before their entrance to Masjid Al-Haram prevented their entering with their sacrifice. They broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet (pbuh) from Masjid Al-Haram, as stated in Surah 913
Who do you think Masjid Al-Qiblatain - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs - was built as a place of expectation for?"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Qiblatain
Masjid Al-Qiblatain is in Medina.
Your continued posting of teachings from men continues to turn you in circles. On one day you say Jerusalem is our qiblah and Masjid Al-Haram is not in Mecca, while on another day you say the Prophet (pbuh) was expelled from Mecca, not Petra.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I want you to understand how upholding teachings of man only twists you about so you cannot state clearly what it is you are upholding.?Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;? Surah 2118
Read the Quran. Turn to Allah for guidance and explanation. He will sort this out for you.
Peace.
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It is very very much clear, like daylight,-----that some people believe in Allah and His Exalted Quran.
And some people believe in a mortal god and his Code 19 theory, and make it a part of Allah's Deen.
Yes, a mortal god, who died and became dust into dust, and One Day he will questioned.
Allah never revealed Code 19 for The Guidance of the mankind.
Allah never commanded us to find Code 19 from His Exalted Quran.There is the Big Bang theory in Al-Quran. Some people found it after scientific study, but Allah never commanded us to find out the Big Bang theory from Al-Quran to prove that Al-Quran is Allah's Quan.
Even if someone does not know the Big Bang theory is in Al-Quran, but follows Allah's Quran, he will be forgiven.
Allah revealed His Truth for the people to become truthful by following The Only Truth in the universe.
But not knowing the Code 19, one is not lost.-----So simple!---So somple!-----Again, so simple!
Allah is Hyu Qyoom.
Khalifa is dead and has become food of the insects.Allah will question.
And we will be questioned.Should we follow Who will question?
Or
Should we follow who will be questioned?
We should fear Allah,---and not Rashad Khalifa.
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Peace be unto you, TruthBehindIt,
May Allah pour down blessings upon you and yours from Most High.
There is the Big Bang theory in Al-Quran. Some people found it after scientific study, but Allah never commanded us to find out the Big Bang theory from Al-Quran to prove that Al-Quran is Allah's Quran.
Even if someone does not know the Big Bang theory is in Al-Quran, but follows Allah's Quran, he will be forgiven.
This is Truth.
Allah revealed His Truth for the people to become truthful by following The Only Truth in the universe.
But not knowing the Code 19, one is not lost.-----So simple!---So simple!-----Again, so simple!
Allah is Hyu Qyoom.
Khalifa is dead and has become food of the insects.Allah will question.
And we will be questioned.Should we follow Who will question?
Or
Should we follow who will be questioned?
We should fear Allah,---and not Rashad Khalifa.
Teachings all found in the Quran.
Allah guides the believers.May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace and blessings.
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I assume that the person who wrote you is aware that you have published his email on here and he is ok about that?
peaceRana, is this a question of ethics or law or both?
Where did you get the idea that his email was private and should not be shared with others?Peace,
Edip -
Where is your proof from the Quran that Surah 9 is corrupt?
Allah stated falsehood would never enter it. You say falsehood did, and was there for 1400 years.Here again... Without ever thinking on the difference between the Quran and Manuscript, without ever thinking on the fact that many manuscripts of the Quran contain errors, missing words, extra words, missing pages, extra pages, and some manuscripts were destroyed and burned...
Furthermore, the Raging... does not even think this fact
We used to believe like you; we used to be shallow like you.
But, our understanding of the verses you are referring to is very different than your understanding. We know your understanding, since once we were at the same station. But, I wonder whether you know our understanding. I wonder whether you wonder how we reconsile those verses with our claims regarding 9128-129.
If my past debates with people like you is any measure; you will not attept to learn our reasoning. You will only repeat what you have learned from mullahs, clerics and your parents without questioning them.
Peace,
Edip -
Here again... Without ever thinking on the difference between the Quran and Manuscript, without ever thinking on the fact that many manuscripts of the Quran contain errors, missing words, extra words, missing pages, extra pages, and some manuscripts were destroyed and burned...
Your own words bear witness that you believe corruption entered the Quran. You strive to make a difference between 'The Quran' and 'manuscript', but you cannot bring proof of this claim nor are you able to refute the teaching from Allah that falsehood will not enter it, in the past or in the future.
You say falsehood entered it in the past. Allah says it will not, ever.
I believe Allah.Furthermore, the Raging... does not even think this fact
We used to believe like you; we used to be shallow like you.
But, our understanding of the verses you are referring to is very different than your understanding. We know your understanding, since once we were at the same station. But, I wonder whether you know our understanding. I wonder whether you wonder how we reconsile those verses with our claims regarding 9128-129.
If my past debates with people like you is any measure; you will not attept to learn our reasoning. You will only repeat what you have learned from mullahs, clerics and your parents without questioning them.
Peace,
EdipBut you cannot bring proof to support your claims nor can you refute the clear proofs given. So you run - like a zebra - when teachings found only in the Quran are brought.
"Falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142
You are saying that falsehood has come to the Quran, Edip Yuksel. I am not saying that. I am not striving to make a false Code work by upholding hadith.
Allah tells us there is no doubt in the Quran, He tells us falsehood won't enter it. I am not the man uttering a lie against Allah by saying He didn't protect the Quran for 1400 years. I am not the man upholding hadith that teaches falsehood entered the Quran. You are the one exceeding the limits, Edip Yuksel.
Bring proof from the Quran or keep silent. It's wiser.None of this came from a Mullah, a Cleric, or my Parents. My Parents are disbelievers Trinitarian Christian and Agnostic. I am a revert to Al-Islam. Why do you think Allah gave me knowledge of what is in the previous Books? It was in reading the entire Bible that I was led from pagan idolatry and guided to Al-Islam by Allah.
Why do you think He showed me Malachi 45 that names this 'Messenger of the Covenant' and it isn't Rashad Khalifa?
I used to be like you, until Allah showed me to stop serving man and to serve only Him.Clerics and Mullahs do not teach serving Allah alone. Clerics and Mullahs do not use proofs from the Quran to refute your falsehood. Clerics and Mullahs uphold hadith, just as you do, Edip Yuksel.
You follow a man who claimed he was receiving revelation from Allah. The same man who you admit made numerous mistakes in his teachings, yet you uphold the fallible Code that is proven wrong by the unaltered Quran.You cannot refute these clear proofs from the Quran, so you are running away 'like a zebra' from the pure, protected revelation of Allah. Your own words return to haunt you now, Edip Yuksel.
You attempt to Invalidate and Insult; you attack the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument. Proof against you that you have nothing to refute the revelation of Allah that proves you wrong. You have no argument, so you resort to the lowest form of rhetoric.http//24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6b9heXpZC1qb2qxro1_500.jpg
You made your choice. Allah will deal with you. But don't expect me to believe anything you say when you cannot bring proof from the Quran to support your fabrications. Explanation is not proof.
Pay heed, Edip Yuksel Replace the two ayats into the Quran, before your appointed term is up. Allah will call you to account for what you do.
"Those who conceal what of the Book God has sent down on them, and sell it for a little price - they shall eat naught but the Fire in their bellies; God shall not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection neither purify them; there awaits them a painful chastisement." Surah 2174
Clear proofs are given that you follow teachings unauthorized by Allah. If you continue to do so until your appointed term, then you have made your choice. Enjoy this life. Surah 1430
Peace.
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Rana, is this a question of ethics or law or both?
Where did you get the idea that his email was private and should not be shared with others?Peace,
EdipFrom the following I got the idea that it COULD be a personal email that he sent to you. I don't know if it was or if it "should not be shared with others" hence my question.
"From James Randi <randi></randi>
Date Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 1006 PM
Subject 19 -- or any other number
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Tell us what is nineteen about the shortest chapter 108 and what prevents flipping it with chapter 103?
chv ltrs words
1031 6 1
1032 14 4
1033 51 91081 15 3
1082 12 3
1083 15 4We are waitng for ur answer ZEBRA...dont run away this time...we wont eat you
http//img.webme.com/pic/7/77depo/ze.jpg
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"And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did." Surah 6108
Let's keep it civil and clean, believers. Let us not exceed the limits and add burden to our own souls.
May Allah pour down patience upon the believers from Most High.
Peace.
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What is the impact of excluding 9128 and 9129 in our lives, faith, practice. Is there any extremist subject / practice referred there in these 2 verses which does not fit the faith of certain people therefore they advocate deleting those 2 verses from Quran.
Most of the people here are apparently knowledgeable and therefore this question would be irrelevant for them or sound stupid for them, but it is important for my understanding so please let me understand what's the real problem in including 9128 and 9129? Or is it just proposed to be excluded by Code 19ers for the sake of inconsistency in their number crunching? Apologies to all if anything causes any offence to anyone. Please accept it as my lack of knowledge and let me understand the real problem with your help.