Like Polytheist ingrates, atheists too are running away from 19 like zebras

KDC501

Already showed example with "ha" and how they cheat manipulate Noon, and also include Bismillah to fool people.

They are not multiple individually and the script manipulated; e.g.

http//free-minds.org/quran/A/19

? not multiple and now Bismillah included whereas for other counts it?s not!
? not multiple and freeminds has it as 120

Again, manipulated text, go to freeminds or other sites pop in browser search each letter and report back to us ...

Would you like to see code 29 as in 29 initialed chapters or 29 Saad as in SEid in chapter titled Saad?

WOW the scripts have been manipulated. rotfl Is that all you can say. Here is a document for those who wish to see and verify the signs (of the 29 initialed Suras) that I previously posted

http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html

Compare the Arabic texts in the reader with another Arabic Quran. Does anyone see any differences?

SEid,

Do you have any other arguments you wish to bring up or is that all your brain can muster? laugh

unknownuser

And do not forget that, 1974 also reminds us that 19 occurs in chapter 74!

Thus according to hadith which the nineteen infatuated are avid readers, revelation started in 610 CE.
It took 23 years so that can?t be it.

http//www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=ger-hij&day=11&month=7&year=610&date_result=1
1974 - 610 = 1364 not multiple?

O? wait those are solar years; let?s try using lunar years?
(1364 solar years) / (12 lunar months) = 1405.85959 close enough

Are you going to use lunar years for all your nineteen hunting?

WOW the scripts have been manipulated. rotfl Is that all you can say.
Compare the Arabic texts in the reader with another Arabic Quran. Does anyone see any differences?

Did you verify the counts for yourself on other sites -- you know that site is the worst in translation and manipulation?
Simply pop each letter in your browser do a search on different chapters, it's easy takes seconds for each letter...

http//free-minds.org/quran/A/2
http//free-minds.org/quran/A/19

SEid,

Do you have any other arguments you wish to bring up or is that all your brain can muster? laugh

Sure have Trillions! More proof (apes despised) GV = 1002004400 6006011050 ?

GV Total - 1425 = 19 x 75
Sequence number, Word Size - 1 4 2 5 = 19 x 75
Sequence number, Letter number, Word Size - 1 1234 42 56789 5 = 19 x 59128556205
Sequence number, Cumulative GV, Word GV - 1 704 704 2 1425 721 = 19 x 8972127443459
Word GV Series, Sequence number - 1002004400 1 6006011050 2 = 19 x 52737073692634742658
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, Cumulative GV - 1 4 704 2 9 1425 = 19 x 773910075
Sequence number, First&Last GV Values, Cumulative GV - 1 500 704 2 650 1425 = 19 x 7898443500075
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, Letter number - 1 4 1234 2 9 56789 = 19 x 74333839831
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, First&Last GV Values - 1 4 500 2 9 650 = 19 x 763173500
Individual GV, letter number - 1001 2002 43 4004 6005 606 17 108 509 = 19 x 52694749652655792424 3005711
Word Size, Word GV, Word GV Series - 4 704 1002004400 5 721 6006011050 = 19 x 24758422107579248505 29479500

Patanahi

Dear Kevin, I have assumed from your posts that you are convinced to remove the 2 verses 9128 and 9129 because that doesn't fit your calculation. Going by that, what should be the correct number of total ayats in Quran? If we take a multiple of 350 (19 x 350=6,650 verses) or if we take another multiple of 351 (19 x 351= 6,669 verses). Apparently, it looks like that neither of the multiples would fit in with the total no. of verses in Quran, even if you delete or add back the 2 verses. Then, how do we conclude about the total no of verses in Quran? Do we need to suggest adding some to fit in your calculation or should we look out for deleting more verses to make these equal to the multiple of 19?

KDC501

SEid,
Since it is you who have brought up the accusation that the count on the letters have been manipulated please enlighten me in which verses the count has been manipulated.

For example, Here is Sura 19

191 K.H'.Y.A'.S' K - 137 H- 175 Y-343 A- 117 S- 26 = 798 = 19x42.

HERE is the reader to help you count the letters http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/arabic/v-19.htm ( I suggest you draw up a table as well.)

Here is a link to an Arabic Quran http//quran.com/19 ( So that you can see that nothing has been manipulated)

In case you don't know the Arabic Alphabet here is the link - http//www.cafe-syria.com/Alphabet.htm

If your next post doesn't bring back any clear evidence then you are a liar.

unknownuser

Kevin it's been already posted with clear examples

ha is not multiple
noon is not multiple
you count bismilla whereas for others you don't
the count for alif are all over the place

therefore liars are those who remove verses

raginggaijin

It says that the number 19 is one of Gods Signs in his book.

No, it does not. It says the period is a trial for disbelievers.

"I shall surely roast him in Sakar; and what will teach thee what is Sakar? It spares not, neither leaves alone scorching the flesh; over it are nineteen.
And we have not made (wam jaaln&#257 companions (aba) of the fire (l-nri) except (ill&#257 angels (malikatan), and their period (iddatahum) We have appointed only as a trial (fitnatan) for the unbelievers (kafaroo), that those who were given the Book may have certainty, and that those who believe may increase in belief, and that those who were given the Book and those who believe may not be in-doubt, and that those in whose hearts there is sickness, and the unbelievers, may say, 'What did God intend by this as a similitude?' So God leads astray whomsoever He will, and He guides whomsoever He will; and none knows the hosts of thy Lord but He. And it is naught but a Reminder to mortals." Surah 7426-31

No where in the Quran does it say "the number 19 is one of Gods Signs in his book".

You cannot prove it, so why do you say it?

As well the 'number' is a period of time. In every single case where this word is used it is speaking of a period of time. Surah 2184, 2185, 936, 937, 1822, 3349, 652, 654, 7431
In the case of Surah 7431, it is the period where disbelievers will be in the Fire. I know that those who do not follow what Allah revealed and associate partners with Him will abide in the Fire. But I also know that Allah is Merciful, Forgiving, and the Fire is not eternal.

"for days numbered (Ayyaman maAAdoodatin); and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number (faAAiddatun)of days (min ayyamin); and for those who are able to fast, a redemption by feeding a poor man. Yet better it is for him who volunteers good, and that you should fast is better for you, if you but know; the month of Ramadan, wherein the Koran was sent down to be a guidance to the people, and as clear signs of the Guidance and the Salvation. So let those of you, who are present at the month, fast it; and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number (faAAiddatun) of other days; God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship for you; and that you fulfil the number, and magnify God that He has guided you, and haply you will be thankful." Surah 2184-185

"As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, their period (faAAiddatuhunna) shall be three months; and those who have not menstruated as yet. And those who are with child, their term is when they bring forth their burden. Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness." Surah 654

So the number 19 is related to the Quran itself. The Quran did not specify how or where these signs are but it does imply that it is a great sign in the book itself. Your argument that number 19 is not related to the number of times the word ?Allah? is mentioned in the Quran is a disputable argument which leads back to the two last Meccan Verses in Sura 9 (which is originally a Medinan Sura)"

Where is your proof the whole is not a 'Meccan' revelation? Do you take your teachings from hadith?

There are a lot of signs (both historical and physical) to show that 9128-129 do not belong in the Quran.

http//www.submission.org/tampering.html

"Upon examining the oldest Islamic references, we realize that the false injections, 9128-129, were always suspect. For example, we read in Bukhary's famous Hadith, and Al-Suyuty's famous Itqaan, that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses "except Verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9; they were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary." When some people questioned this improper exception, someone came up with a Hadith stating that "the testimony of Khuzeimah equals the testimony of two men!!!"

You bring proof you uphold hadith. Thank you.
Proof you associate partners with Allah, as do anyone else who upholds the removal of Surah 9128-129.

In my view God knew before hand that people would try to tamper with Sura 9 which is why he took to all the necessary steps to ensure that his book was preserved. In conclusion , I'll just like to say that anyone can add verses to an ordinary book. However a coded book is another story. In a coded book (especially one designed by the Creator) errors are as bright as day.

This is a common declaration of the polytheist Christians "The Bible manuscript contains errors, but the original revelation is inerrant!"
Me So show me the original, error-free manuscript.
Christian "Oh, it's lost; we don't have it anymore."

What good is protecting a Book if you don't have access to it?
So too can I ask then Show me this 'untampered Quran, if you speak truthfully'. No Code-19 Submitter can bring one forth but as proven above they bring hadith to support their teachings.

The followers of Rashad say the Quran that is with Allah is protected, but the manuscripts are not. They claim this is proven by Surah 8521-22

"Nay, but it is a glorious Koran, in a guarded tablet (lawhin)." Surah 8521-22

This only increases their problem as every reference to (lawhin) in the Quran is of a physical object in the hands of men - the Prophets Allah gave revelation to. Surah 7145, 7150, 7154, 5413, 8521-22

"And We wrote for him on the Tablets (al-alwahi) of everything an admonition, and a distinguishing of everything 'So take it forcefully, and command thy people to take the fairest of it. I shall show you the habitation of the ungodly." Surah 7145
"And when Moses returned to his people, angry and sorrowful, he said, 'Evilly have you done in my place, after me; what, have you outstripped your Lord's commandment?' And he cast down the Tablets (al-alwaha), and laid hold of his brother's head, dragging him to him. He said, 'Son of my mother, surely the people have abased me, and well nigh slain me. Make not my enemies to gloat over me, and put me not among the people of the evildoers." Surah 7150
"And when Moses' anger abated in him, he took the Tablets (al-alwaha) and in the inscription of them was guidance, and mercy unto all those who hold their Lord in awe." Surah 7154
"And We bore him upon a well-planked (alwahin) vessel well-caulked" Surah 5413

The only thing you can write on that shares attributes you make into an ark is wood.
Wood pulp makes paper, layered sheets (planks) making a book - a manuscript. It is in the hands of believers and available to all nations.

But Allah is clear He protects the Quran and that includes the 'manuscripts'.

"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters would never leave off; till the Clear Sign came to them, a Messenger from God, reciting pages (suhufan) purified, therein true Books. And they scattered not, those that were given the Book, excepting after the Clear Sign came to them." Surah 981-4

"Falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142

"Praise belongs to God who has sent down upon His servant the Book and has not assigned unto it any crookedness;" Surah 181

"An Arabic Quran, wherein there is no crookedness; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 3928

Rashad Khalifa removed two ayats from the Quran and printed his translation. Before the year was out, he was dead.

Those who uphold removal of ayats from the Quran uphold teachings of satans, saying Allah failed in His Word to keep the Quran protected - no crookedness would enter it - in the past or the future.

"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of nasi and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112

Let them enjoy this life. They will know the Truth. Surah 1430

Peace.

KDC501

Kevin it's been already posted with clear examples

ha is not multiple
noon is not multiple
you count bismilla whereas for others you don't
the count for alif are all over the place

therefore liars are those who remove verses

SEid,
You have not answered my question. I have asked you specifically to tell me in which verses the counting of the letters has been manipulated. You have not shown me any verses nor have you posted any. You are lying

In addition why are you calling me a liar just because I believe in the proofs that show 9128-129 don?t belong in the Quran ??? Are you losing your marbles or are you just flustered because you can't answer basic questions?

Paradox_Uncreated

No, it does not. It says the period is a trial for disbelievers.

I agree with that. I don`t see "above it 19" being about the initials.

raginggaijin

SEid,
You have not answered my question. I have asked you specifically to tell me in which verses the counting of the letters has been manipulated. You have not shown me any verses nor have you posted any. You are lying

In addition why are you calling me a liar just because I believe in the proofs that show 9128-129 don?t belong in the Quran ??? Are you losing your marbles or are you just flustered because you can't answer basic questions?

Rashad Khalifa printed a Quran translation in 1981 that contained the correct number of ayats in Surah 9. It was discovered that the count was off due to his reliance on an earlier Index count that was off by one. In 1982 he printed a book 'Qur'an Visual Presentation of the Miracle'. In this publication he gave the list of all the chapters and all the verses containing 'Allah' in the Quran. He lists
Chapter One and Verse Number One as Count Number 1. (Which proves he counted the opening 'Bismillah' as early as 1981.)
Chapter One and Verse Number Two as Count Number 2. (Which proves he did not start the count here.)
One Allah instead of Two for Verse 15 of Chapter 9.
One Allah in Verse 129 (which he later deleted) of Chapter 9.

The hadith (sayings) of Rashad's disciples is that he put the words into a computer by his own hand to derive the count. Edip Yuksel has this in his own Quran translation on page 535, which also states he assisted in this discovery. This is upheld by the acknowledgement by Rashad to those who helped, and Edip Yuksel is named - found on page 636 of Rashad's translation.
Problem is, if he (they) put these into a computer, he (they) would not have miscounted the number, and would not be relying on an earlier Index. But the count is off in Rashad's first translation, and it is off in the supplemental book, and it matches the earlier Index count of 2698.

The Arabic revelation contains 2699 counts of 'Allah'. 2699 is not divisible by 19.

Which means Edip and Rashad both knew the count was off, but instead of correcting the mistake they sought to hide it; cover up the Truth. They turned to hadith and found a story that suited their purpose. Problem is, they have no proof the man this story is attributed to even existed as he is not named in the Quran.

Those who uphold the Quran is not protected and two ayats were 'inserted' into the Quran are lying.

Allah states no falsehood would enter it, in the past or the future.
Allah states He protects the Quran. That includes the manuscripts.

"Falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable." Surah 4142

"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters would never leave off; till the Clear Sign came to them, a Messenger from God, reciting pages (suhufan) purified, therein true Books. And they scattered not, those that were given the Book, excepting after the Clear Sign came to them." Surah 981-4

"Praise belongs to God who has sent down upon His servant the Book and has not assigned unto it any crookedness;" Surah 181

"An Arabic Quran, wherein there is no crookedness; haply they will be godfearing." Surah 3928

The lie "Allah did not protect the Quran; He allowed falsehood to enter the Quran for 1400 years."
People who defend Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel defend the lie, and themselves become liars by upholding falsehood instead of the Truth.

Peace.

Edip_Yuksel

Dear KDC501,

I used to waste my time with the ingrates who seek all the excuses and ignorance to blind themselves to the divine signs. If you read the Quran, you will see that similar ingrates reacted exactly the same to all previous signs. Read for instance the first eleven verses of chapter 38, which starts with letter Sad.

So, you should not be saddened nor worried about these ignorant people's rejection. If they deserved to witness the miracle they would. So, let them suffer in their anger and misery, both in this world and in the hereafter. They are already surrounded by the smoke of hell, which all they see in chapter 74. They are tormented in fitna and, they deserve it since their heart is filled with desease, and they are people who are both ignorant and arrogant (7146)

Peace,
Edip

unknownuser

Dear KDC501,

I used to waste my time with the ingrates who seek all the excuses and ignorance to blind themselves to the divine signs. If you read the Quran, you will see that similar ingrates reacted exactly the same to all previous signs. Read for instance the first eleven verses of chapter 38, which starts with letter Sad.

So, you should not be saddened nor worried about these ignorant people's rejection. If they deserved to witness the miracle they would. So, let them suffer in their anger and misery, both in this world and in the hereafter. They are already surrounded by the smoke of hell, which all they see in chapter 74. They are tormented in fitna and, they deserve it since their heart is filled with desease, and they are people who are both ignorant and arrogant (7146)

Peace,
Edip

Edip,

You are a ridiculously stupid man who removes verses from Qur'an and teach others to the fire to be branded on the snout!

Now run off into the internet bushes like the scared zebra that you are...

Oh, by the way, the ancient "19" delusion has long ago been falsified, didn't you know...? No one cares, you see...

I have no interest in discussing numerology. I'm a grown adult, with far more important things to do with my time.

James Randi.

Again, an excellent reply between ingrate James to ingrate Edip -- one of the most ignorant persons on the net.

By the way whoever put the extra Noon http//free-minds.org/quran/A/68 deserves branding on the snout!

Peace to all believers!

KDC501

SEid
Yessss. I can feel your ANGER! It makes you ignorant because you are foolish. jedi #StarWarsDarthSidiousMoments

You can't answer my question can you. Do you know why??? Because there was no manipulation of the count in 29 initialed Suras and you know it. You are a liar who just enjoys playing with numbers for the sake of your own vanity.

http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html

Raging,
Why are you arguing about the word count of "God" when my question directed to SEid was about the 29 initialed Suras and there respective letter counts. Are you paying attention to what I am saying or are you to busy being condescending to truthful remarks???

unknownuser

SEid
Yessss. I can feel your ANGER! It makes you ignorant because you are foolish. jedi #StarWarsDarthSidiousMoments

You can't answer my question can you. Do you know why??? Because there was no manipulation of the count in 29 initialed Suras and you know it. You are a liar who just enjoys playing with numbers for the sake of your own vanity.

Kevin, no one is angry and your question has been answered countless times, not my issue you cannot read.

Here let's go, you answer then you get to ask me, and no links to stupid websites...

Question to Kevin in chapter 68 how many N?

Are there not 131 not multiple! Do you include ?

68|1|
68|2|
68|3|
68|4|
68|5|
68|6|
68|7|
68|8|
68|9|
68|10|
68|11|
68|12|
68|13|
68|14|
68|15|
68|16|
68|17|
68|18|
68|19|
68|20|
68|21|
68|22|
68|23|
68|24|
68|25|
68|26|
68|27|
68|28|
68|29|
68|30|
68|31|
68|32|
68|33|
68|34|
68|35|
68|36|
68|37|
68|38|
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68|42|
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68|45|
68|46|
68|47|
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68|50|
68|51|
68|52|

Question to Kevin or anyone who follows this nonsense why do you remove two verses 9128-129?

If you do not count for yourself and answer proves you have been fooled by liars and apes despised!