Like Polytheist ingrates, atheists too are running away from 19 like zebras
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What is the impact of excluding 9128 and 9129 in our lives, faith, practice...
...what's the real problem in including 9128 and 9129?
Or is it just proposed to be excluded by Code 19ers for the sake of inconsistency in their number crunching?Their Code 19 does not work with those two ayats in the Quran. Rashad Khalifa printed a Quran translation in 1981 that contained the correct number of ayats in Surah 9. It was discovered that the count was off due to his reliance on an Index count that was off by one. In 1982 he printed a book 'Qur'an Visual Presentation of the Miracle'. In this publication he gave the list of all the chapters and all the verses containing 'Allah' in the Quran. He lists
Chapter One and Verse Number One as Count Number 1. (Which proves he counted the opening 'Bismillah' as early as 1981.)
Chapter One and Verse Number Two as Count Number 2. (Which proves he did not start the count here.)
One Allah instead of Two for Verse 15 of Chapter 9.
One Allah in Verse 129 (which he later deleted) of Chapter 9.Which means they run into a problem. The hadith (sayings) of Rashad's disciples is that he put the words into a computer by his own hand to derive the count. Edip Yuksel has this in his own Quran translation on page 535, which also states he assisted in this discovery. This is upheld by the acknowledgement by Rashad to those who helped, and Edip Yuksel is named - found on page 636 of Rashad's translation.
Problem is, if he (they) put these into a computer, he (they) would not have miscounted the number, and would not be relying on an earlier Index. But the count is off in Rashad's first translation, and it is off in the supplemental book, and it matches the earlier Index count of 2698.The Arabic revelation contains 2699 counts of 'Allah'. 2699 is not divisible by 19.
Which means Edip and Rashad both knew the count was off, but instead of correcting the mistake they sought to hide it; cover up the Truth. They turned to hadith and found a story that suited their purpose. Problem is, they have no proof the man this story is attributed to even existed as he is not named in the Quran.
They compound the lie.
The followers of Rashad say the Quran that is with Allah is protected, but the manuscripts are not. They claim this is proven by Surah 8521-22"Nay, but it is a glorious Koran, in a guarded tablet (lawhin)." Surah 8521-22
This only increases their problem as every reference to (lawhin) in the Quran is of a physical object in the hands of men - the Prophets Allah gave revelation to. Surah 7145, 7150, 7154, 5413, 8521-22
"And We wrote for him on the Tablets (al-alwahi) of everything an admonition, and a distinguishing of everything 'So take it forcefully, and command thy people to take the fairest of it. I shall show you the habitation of the ungodly." Surah 7145
"And when Moses returned to his people, angry and sorrowful, he said, 'Evilly have you done in my place, after me; what, have you outstripped your Lord's commandment?' And he cast down the Tablets (al-alwaha), and laid hold of his brother's head, dragging him to him. He said, 'Son of my mother, surely the people have abased me, and well nigh slain me. Make not my enemies to gloat over me, and put me not among the people of the evildoers." Surah 7150
"And when Moses' anger abated in him, he took the Tablets (al-alwaha) and in the inscription of them was guidance, and mercy unto all those who hold their Lord in awe." Surah 7154
"And We bore him upon a well-planked (alwahin) vessel well-caulked" Surah 5413The only thing you can write on that shares attributes you make into an ark is wood.
Wood pulp makes paper, layered sheets (planks) making a book - a manuscript.The Book is with Allah, and the Quran is part of it. The previous revelations are all pages (suhufan) of the Book Surah 20133, 5336, 7452, 8010-13, 8718-19, 981-4
?And they say Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not there come to them a clear evidence of what is in the previous pages?" Surah 20133
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters would never leave off; till the Clear Sign came to them, a Messenger from God, reciting pages (suhufan) purified, therein true Books. And they scattered not, those that were given the Book, excepting after the Clear Sign came to them." Surah 981-4They try to attribute Surah 981-4 with Rashad, saying the Messenger from Allah is Rashad Khalifa, as this further refutes the claim of falsehood entering the Quran.
But the teachings of Rashad Khalifa are erroneous, full of contradictions. Even Edip Yuksel took the time to point them out in his Quran translation on page 547. Edip uses an (x) to denote the contradictions.Allah also refutes the accusations of forgery
"Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Say 'Then bring you ten suras the like of it, forged; and call upon whom you are able, apart from God, if you speak truly.'
Then, if they do not answer you, know that it has been sent down with God's knowledge, and that there is no god but He. So have you surrendered?" Surah 1113-14
"Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Say 'If I have forged it, upon me falls my sin; and I am quit of the sins you do.'" Surah 1135They will be called to account for their deeds, as every person will.
All knowledge is from Allah, who increases it to whom He wills.
All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all beings. Him do I serve, and Him alone do I beseech for help.Peace.
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Their Code 19 does not work with those two ayats in the Quran. Rashad Khalifa printed a Quran translation in 1981 that contained the correct number of ayats in Surah 9. It was discovered that the count was off due to his reliance on an Index count that was off by one. In 1982 he printed a book 'Qur'an Visual Presentation of the Miracle'.
Does it mean that instead of concluding that Code 19 formula was inconsistent, they concluded that Quran is incorrect?? Really?? So, they deleted 2 verses from Quran for that reason?? Sorry, I am still confused! I thought that there must be something inconsistent in those 2 verses (Compared to the teaching of Quran as a whole) therefore a group / sect proposed to delete those verses? Do you mean to say (sorry for putting words in others' mouth) that these verses have no conceptual problem for 19ers or others; the verses were challenged due to statistical inconsistency?
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So much misinformation and ignorant remarks are posted here about 19 and related issues....
About 15 years ago, I addressed many of the distortions and misinformation on this issue. I invite anyone who has sincere interest in the subject matter to read my letter to Signs Magazine, at
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Edip,
Those who choose not to believe in God?s signs will wish that they had believed in it in the hereafter. They have mocked God, and have ridiculed his signs. In addition some have already done so without first examining his signs carefully (A character that is unbecoming of one who would call themselves servants of God.)Those who have done so are not guided. Even if you show them countless of signs they will not believe because most of them want God?s signs to be of there own choosing. Who can argue with such people? They?re arrogance have already sealed there faith. I will wait till the day of resurrection when God will handle all disputes. We shall see who was on the right path and who wasn?t. But mark my words those who have mocked God signs willfully will be lead further astray in this life and will not succeed in the hereafter.
They ridicule, laugh and make derision of God?s signs yet up till now they cannot construct a book like the Quran with similar signs. Common sense is not common.
Sura 1788 Say, "If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Quran like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another."
I also find it rather ironic that some of the rejectors claim to believe in ?the other quran miracles? (for example everyone should know by now that the word yawm (day) occurs 365 times in the Quran) yet when it comes to IMPORTANT WORDS like ?the Quran? , ?God? (AND STRUCTURES of the QURAN) for example the number of suras ,the number of verses all of which occur in multiples of 19 they will not acknowledge them. They would rather acknowledge the smaller signs than acknowledge the larger signs in the Quran. Why? Maybe it is because they don?t like the person who discovered them. They don?t like the fact that he was human being and claimed to be a messenger. I?m beginning to see that the rejectors will never believe in a human messenger. Even if he brings proof. If Muhammad , Lot or Noah were here today they would be one of first to reject them.
Question for the rejectors What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras???? Give me a better meaning/interpretation than what the code has clearly shown already. I have been waiting for the past few days yet no one has given me a good response
PS Those who say that they (auspicious letters) have no meaning should also say ?God made a mistake? . I am still waiting for someone from among the rejectors to give me a response. Put your minds together and give me a structured response WITH PROOF.
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Peace,
We are waitng for ur answer ZEBRA...dont run away this time...we wont eat you
He never answers a straight simple question only posts a link to a rant and runs away.
About 15 years ago, I addressed many of the distortions and misinformation on this issue. I invite anyone who has sincere interest in the subject matter to read my letter to Signs Magazine, at
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm
Edip, again show code on shortest ch 108 and what prevents flipping with ch 103?
Answer which words bother you in 9128-129 and reason you discard two verses?Their Code 19 does not work with those two ayats in the Quran.
Their code does not work period, even without two verses there is nothing only a few more multiples. There is no consistent pattern, statistically insignificant, one can find infinity of such multiples with any text.
The Arabic revelation contains 2699 counts of 'Allah'. 2699 is not divisible by 19.
Of course, 2699 is a prime and not divisible by any number only by 1 and itself.
Does it mean that instead of concluding that Code 19 formula was inconsistent, they concluded that Quran is incorrect?? Really?? So, they deleted 2 verses from Quran for that reason?? Sorry, I am still confused! I thought that there must be something inconsistent in those 2 verses (Compared to the teaching of Quran as a whole) therefore a group / sect proposed to delete those verses? Do you mean to say (sorry for putting words in others' mouth) that these verses have no conceptual problem for 19ers or others; the verses were challenged due to statistical inconsistency?
They went about mindlessly fudging the text, excluding/including, deleting verses, changing the text, hunting for multiples and getting a buzz, their lives revolve around a freaking number, look at their pseudos and avatars, reporting anything that was a multiple 5% skipping 95% that were none hits; examples
7430 nine ten (i.e. nineteen) gv = 4006070400 70300200 not multiple!
Ch 68 there are 132 not multiple!
They spelled it thus created a new initial total 98 not multiple!
Total merciful 115 not multiple!
They ignorantly remove 9128-129 saying how can the messenger be merciful? Qur'an is clear...4829 Muhammad messenger of Allah and those who with him firm against the unappreciative and (plural of merciful) among themselves?
1724 and lower to them wing humility of the mercy
654 and when come to you those who believe in our verses so say, "Peace upon you, your Lord has prescribed upon Himself the mercy that he who among you does evil in ignorance furthermore repents after it and reforms then indeed He oft-forgiving, merciful
655 and thus We explain the Verses so that becomes manifest way the criminals.Question for the rejectors What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras????
Since you're posting questions to Edip et al, perhaps also ask why there are 29?
Give me a better meaning/interpretation than what the code has clearly shown already. I have been waiting for the past few days yet no one has given me a good response
The code has shown absolutely NOTHING, see earlier post....
Before inviting people to fitna, why don't study yourself thoroughly answer questions posted earlier?
Kevin, if you want to discuss the initialed chapters start a new thread after searching the forum and let Edip answer the questions posted to him and not run away as he titled this thread like a zebra.
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Does it mean that instead of concluding that Code 19 formula was inconsistent, they concluded that Quran is incorrect?? Really??
Yes. They believe falsehood entered the Quran. They use hadith to uphold this teaching
Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit
"Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him."http//www.quran-islam.org/userfiles/image/objection%20of%20Ali%20-%2014.jpg
Source Al-Itqaan Fee Ulum Al-Quran, by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, page 59So, they deleted 2 verses from Quran for that reason?? Sorry, I am still confused! I thought that there must be something inconsistent in those 2 verses (Compared to the teaching of Quran as a whole) therefore a group / sect proposed to delete those verses? Do you mean to say (sorry for putting words in others' mouth) that these verses have no conceptual problem for 19ers or others; the verses were challenged due to statistical inconsistency?
As proven in replies on this thread, the teachings found in Surah 9128-129 are taught elsewhere in the Quran. Allah repeats His Messages.
"And thus do We repeat the signs and that they may say You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know." Surah 6105
"Now there has come to you a Messenger from among yourselves; grievous to him is your suffering; anxious is he over you, gentle to the believers, compassionate.
So if they turn their backs, say 'God is enough for me. There is no god but He. In Him I have put my trust. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne.'" Surah 9128-129"as also We have sent among you, of yourselves, a Messenger, to recite Our signs to you and to purify you, and to teach you the Book and the Wisdom, and to teach you that you knew not." Surah 2151
"We know indeed that it grieves thee the things they say; yet it is not thee they cry lies to, but the evildoers - it is the signs of God that they deny. " Surah 633
"Yet perchance, if they believe not in this tiding, thou wilt consume thyself, following after them, of grief." Surah 186
"those to whom the people said, 'The people have gathered against you, therefore fear them', but it increased them in faith, and they said, 'God is sufficient for us; an excellent Guardian is He.'" Surah 3173
"If thou askest them, 'Who created the heavens and the earth?' they will say, 'God.' Say 'What think you? That you call upon apart from God -- if God desires affliction for me, shall they remove His affliction? Or if He desires mercy for me, shall they withhold His mercy?' Say 'God is enough for me; in Him all those put their trust who put their trust.'" Surah 3938
"and lower to them the wing of humbleness out of mercy and say; 'My Lord, have mercy upon them, as they raised me up when I was little.'" Surah 1724
"Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage." Surah 4829
Those who seek to uphold Code 19 need ask themselves
"What, is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them? Surely in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe." Surah 2951Take note Edip Yuksel and his followers are unable to refute the proofs from the Quran.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace.
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So much misinformation and ignorant remarks are posted here about 19 and related issues....
Then refute them.
Bring clear proofs from the Quran that prove what is shown is misinformation and/or ignorant.If you cannot or will not, then it proves you have nothing to say and only utter false accusations against those who bring the Truth and clear proofs that refute the falsehood you teach.
You add burden of sin to your soul by uttering manifest calumnies against those who serve Allah and none other.Bring proof or keep silent, it's wiser.
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238
Explanation is not proof.Peace.
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Excluding SEid and Raging who are like frighten sheep and who foolishly and arrogantly choose to compare God's signs to a middling play with numbers does anyone else have an answer to my question.
What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed suras? Give me a better interpretation than what the code 19 has provided with physical evidence
Read http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
(Watch as the rejectors will say " So what ! It's a coincidence! " ) Question Would a person call a sign a coincidence when a similar sign occurs 100 or 200 times over?
So far the rejectors have not answered my question. Where are the answers?
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Excluding SEid and Raging who are like frighten sheep and who foolishly and arrogantly choose to compare God's signs to a middling play with numbers does anyone else have an answer to my question.
What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed suras? Give me a better interpretation than what the code 19 has provided with physical evidence.
One reason the initials are there is to lead those who disbelieve astray.
The disbelievers ascribe Gematria - Jewish mystic teachings of satans - to them.
"Gematria or gimatria (Hebrew , gmariyā is a system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other, or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like. It is likely that the term derives from the order of the Greek alphabet, gamma being the third letter of the Greek alphabet (gamma + tria). Alternatively, the word "gematria" is generally held to derive from Greek gemetri, "geometry", which was used as a translation of gmariy, though some scholars believe it to derive from Greek grammateia, rather; it's possible that both words had an influence on the formation of the Hebrew word. It has been extant in English since the 17th century from translations of works by Giovanni Pico della Mirandola. Although ostensibly derived from Greek, it is largely used in Jewish texts, notably in those associated with the Kabbalah."
Allah condemns practices of the satans in the Quran. Only those who disbelieve uphold these satanic teachings.
Pyramid University/Sorcery (alsshiru) of Egypt Surah 1077, 1081, 2071, 2649
Sahirin - magicians of Egypt Surah 7112, 1077-81, 2049-71, Exo. 7-8
Kabbalah/Sorcery (alsshiru) of Babylon Surah 2102, 451-52, 2073
Secret Societies Surah 587-22, 2102, 481, 4108, 4113, 978, 1747, 1530-40, 6123, 211-4, 26124-131, Zech. 1117
Diviners/soothsayers/astrologers Surah 451-52, 1516-18, 376-11, 5238-41, 675, 728-9Proof is given they uphold teachings of Jewish Mystics in their own Quran translations, reciting their source "'Studies in Jewish Mysticsm' (page 88, 1982)".
Rashad Khalifa in his translation admits this on page 636, Appendix 1.
Edip Yuksel in his translation admits this on page 544, Appendix 3.
Both men invite to teachings of satans Kabbalist teachings of sorcery and delusion.Taken from Code 19-Submitters website, proving their upholding Gematria and hadith
http//www.submission.org/suras/app25.htmlAl-Suyooty's ITQAAN, First Printing, 1318 AH, Vol 2, Page 10
"The Jews of Medina went to the Prophet and said, "Your Quran is initialed with A.L.M., and these Initials determine the life span of your religion. SinceA' is 1,L' is 30, andM' is 40, this means that your religion will survive only 71 years." Muhammad said, "We also have A.L.M.S." They said, "TheA' is 1, theL' is 30, theM' is 40, and theS' is 90. This adds up to 161. Do you have anything else?" The Prophet said, "Yes, A.L.M.R." They said, "This is longer and heavier; theA' is 1,L' is 30,M' is 40, and `R' is 200, making the total 271." They finally gave up, saying, "We do not know how many of these Initials he was given!" ""O believers, enter the peace, all of you, and follow not the steps of the satan; he is a manifest foe to you." Surah 2208
"So he led them on by delusion; and when they tasted the tree, their shameful parts revealed to them, so they took to stitching upon themselves leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called to them, 'Did not I prohibit you from this tree, and say to you, "Verily Satan is for you a manifest foe"?'" Surah 722
Forbidden Tree Surah 235, 2102, 719-22, 1760, 20120-121, 3762-64, 4443, 5652
The Tree of Life, the Tree of Immortality, the Sephiroth - where man becomes an immortal god Kabbalah.
"The Sephirot are united in the Divine view. Medieval Kabbalah describes the sin of Adam as introducing false separation between male Divine and female Shechina, by eating from the Tree of Knowledge before the Tree of Life, two aspects of the Sephirot."
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Albero_della_Vita_di_Davide_Tonato.jpg
I do not follow teachings of the satans. I reject Code 19 and strive to show what it truly is Teachings of sorcery and divination. Teachings of the satans.
Those who uphold Code 19 practice the craft of sorcery and divination. They will be among the losers in the Hereafter."and they follow what the Satans recited over Solomon's kingdom. Solomon disbelieved not, but the Satans disbelieved, teaching the people sorcery, and that which was sent down upon Babylon's two angels, Harut and Marut; they taught not any man, without they said, 'We are but a temptation; do not disbelieve.' From them they learned how they might divide a man and his wife, yet they did not hurt any man thereby, save by the leave of God, and they learned what hurt them, and did not profit them, knowing well that whoso buys it shall have no share in the world to come; evil then was that they sold themselves for, if they had but known." Surah 2102
The satans have no power over Allah?s servants Surah 1530-42
Allah did not make any mistakes. Allah neither errs nor forgets. Surah 482, 2052
Allah knows exactly what men need to believe, and to be led astray.
Proof is given.Peace.
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So much misinformation and ignorant remarks are posted here about 19 and related issues....
About 15 years ago, I addressed many of the distortions and misinformation on this issue. I invite anyone who has sincere interest in the subject matter to read my letter to Signs Magazine, at
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm
Peace,
EdipPeace Edip
In this letter you endorse the idea that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger, a -rasool-.
selected quotes
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I believe that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger of God. If you ask why do I believe, I can list quite a few reasons.
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Rashad did not receive a book; he advocated Quran alone
- The footnotes, subtitles and appendices of Rashad?s translation, "Quran the Final Testament," are not revela-tions besides the Quran, but his personal under-standing that is subject to human fil-tration, misunderstanding, interpretation and specula-tions. He advocated the Quran alone
unquote
The Koran seems to indicate otherwise
Verse 5725 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.-
This verse alone is sufficient koranic proof that there were no new messengers after the prophet Mohammad. According to this verse ? human messengers bring a scripture and law ? with the permission of God.
No man or woman after the life-time of Mohammad has brought mankind a new scripture and a new -sharia-, that was sent down truly in the name of God.Possible discoveries about the Koran do not make a person a messenger in the koranic tradition.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602264.0
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Mr.Raging,
WOW. Most impressive ;D I can see that you took some time to type out a response. So please again enlighten me as to why haven't you yet answered my simple question? laughYour question is answered and proof is given, which you cannot refute so you mock.
So be it. You have chosen your path."So the evil things that they wrought smote them, and they were encompassed by that they mocked at." Surah 1634
"And the evil deeds that they have done shall appear to them, and they shall be encompassed by that they mocked at." Surah 4533I am clear of what you do.
Dear Truthseeker171,
In your own words tell me what qualifies a person to be a Messenger of God.He quoted the Quran's words that show what a Messenger is. Surah 5725
You cannot see it in your blindness.Peace.
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Salam,
lol, from childhood, my view was that one must have a message in order to be a messenger. Repeating existing messages makes you a messenger in the same sense as one could consider me a messenger for repeating the Qur'an to someone that has not heard it .
PEACE
--------------- Student of Allah
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Your question is answered and proof is given, which you cannot refute so you mock.
So be it. You have chosen your path."So the evil things that they wrought smote them, and they were encompassed by that they mocked at." Surah 1634
"And the evil deeds that they have done shall appear to them, and they shall be encompassed by that they mocked at." Surah 4533I am clear of what you do.
He quoted the Quran's words that show what a Messenger is. Surah 5725
You cannot see it in your blindness.Peace.
Mr.Raging,
You said that God signs are placed in his book to lead people astray (which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when the Quran says otherwise239 Those who do not appreciate and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of fire, in it they will abide.
6410 As for those who reject and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of the fire; they will abide therein. What a miserable destiny!
456 Those who have rejected Our signs, We will admit them to a fire. Every time their skins are cooked, We replace them with other skin that they may taste the retribution. God is Noble, Wise.
510 Those who reject and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of hell.
621 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His signs! The wicked will never succeed.
Also God clearly shows us in the Quran that the letters of the 29 initialed are part of God?s signs
261 T. S. M.
262 These are the signs of the manifest/clarifying book.151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an.
311 A.L.M.
312 These are the signs of the book of wisdom.271 T'.S, these are the signs of the Qur'an and a clear Scripture.
101 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture of wisdom.
Message to the believers The rejectors instead submitting and acknowledging God?s signs they would rather call it magic or work of the Devil with no proof whatsoever. Are the believers watching this amazing phenomena unfolding before us.
Is what the rejectors saying today anymore different than what people have already said in the past
67 If We had sent down to you a book already written on paper, and they touched it with their own hands, then those who have rejected would say, "This is but clear magic!"
616 When Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ?most acclaimed.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, ?This is clearly magic.'
467 When Our clear signs are recited to them, those who rejected said of the truth that came to them "This is evidently magic!"
4330 When the truth came to them, they said, "This is magic, and we reject it."
Watch them well and you will see they will not believe. God has blocked them from acknowledging his signs no matter how clear they may be. They are not believers. Hence every sign that appears to them they will say ? magic? or ? satanic practices?
Answer to Mr.Raging regrading Messengers Maybe in your fantasy world every single Messenger brings a book. I don't recall the Quran ever saying that Lot or Jonah brought a book. It is quite clear to me that you don't know the difference between a messenger who is not a prophet and a messenger who is a prophet.
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The question still stands. Can anyone else give me a better interpretation of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras? So far no one has given me a better answer than what the code has clearly shown.
Read http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
Where are the answers? I have already heard a person foolishly say that God signs are meant to deceive people. This would imply that God is really in fact an evil entity who relishes in deceiving people. I am still waiting for a structured answer with proof.
Peace,
Kevin
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I cannot keep up with every ignorant and arrogant criticism, which are very similar to each other, over and over. There are millions of ingrates who consider God as a great literary author yet also as innumerate as their ancestors.
They believe in a psychitzophrenic god who demands evidence from others but when His book is challenged to be "manmade" His only response is "I will burn you in hell." This is their level of appreciating God, the creator of the Universe which functions according to mathematics.
I have written two books on this subject, and anyone who wish to engage in a serious criticism should first study the data and arguments in those books
- NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture
- Running Like Zebras
The second book is available on the net, and I am preparing an updated and expanded version of it for print.
The first book is not yet available electronically. But, if you cannot afford ordering the book onlien, please send me an EMAIL so that I could give you access to it at google docs.
Peace,
Edip -
I cannot keep up with every ignorant and arrogant criticism, which are very similar to each other, over and over. There are millions of ingrates who consider God as a great literary author yet also as innumerate as their ancestors.
If they are similar then you should be able to provide clear proofs from the Quran to refute them. As those who have refuted you are able to do, by the knowledge given to them by Allah.
They believe in a psychitzophrenic god who demands evidence from others but when His book is challenged to be "manmade" His only response is "I will burn you in hell." This is their level of appreciating God, the creator of the Universe which functions according to mathematics.
More strawman rhetoric. Please provide proof of these claims when you state them.
The Quran contains a falsification test. You would know this if you studied it.
"What, do they not ponder the Koran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency." Surah 482
This is a challenge to find a mistake - a lie, a contradiction, a falsehood.
There are none in it, so I have proof it comes from Allah and not man.But according to you, there are two mistakes in it. So you are saying the Quran does not come from Allah, but from man as Allah does not make mistakes nor does He forget. But you say the Quran contains falsified ayats.
"Said Moses, 'The knowledge of them is with my Lord, in a Book; my Lord goes not astray, nor forgets --" Surah 2052
I have written two books on this subject, and anyone who wish to engage in a serious criticism should first study the data and arguments in those books
- NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture
- Running Like Zebras
The second book is available on the net, and I am preparing an updated and expanded version of it for print.
The first book is not yet available electronically. But, if you cannot afford ordering the book onlien, please send me an EMAIL so that I could give you access to it at google docs.
This is what I took away from your comments above "Purchase my books to study my data and arguments, soon to be in print format."
"It is not given to any soul to die, save by the leave of God, at an appointed time. Whoso desires the reward of this world, We will give him of this; and whoso desires the reward of the other world, We will give him of that; and We will recompense the thankful." Surah 3145
"Those are they whom God has guided; so follow their guidance. Say 'I ask of you no wage for it; it is but a reminder unto all beings.'" Surah 690
Peace.
I have already heard a person foolishly say that God signs are meant to deceive people. This would imply that God is really in fact an evil entity who relishes in deceiving people. I am still waiting for a structured answer with proof.
Further proof your devotees have not read the Quran.
"How is it with you, that you are two parties touching the hypocrites, and God has overthrown them for what they earned? What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way." Surah 488
"wavering all the time -- not to these, not to those; and whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way." Surah 4143
"Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his breast narrow, tight, as if he were climbing to heaven. So God lays abomination upon those who believe not." Surah 6125
"Of camels two, of oxen two. Say 'Is it the two males He has forbidden or the two females? Or what the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when God charged you with this? Then who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, in order that he may lead mankind astray without any knowledge? Surely God guides not the people of the evildoers.'" Surah 6144
"Whomsoever God leads astray, no guide he has; He leaves them in their insolence blindly wandering." Surah 7186
Allah guides those who He wills, and leads astray those who He wills.
Peace.
-
The Koran seems to indicate otherwise
Verse 5725 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.-This verse alone is sufficient koranic proof that there were no new messengers after the prophet Mohammad. According to this verse ? human messengers bring a scripture and law ? with the permission of God.
No man or woman after the life-time of Mohammad has brought mankind a new scripture and a new -sharia-, that was sent down truly in the name of God.Red highlights above are from me.
Dear truthseeker171,
verse 5725
1st You have interpolated Your own desires in the translation of 5725. I highlighted "down to" in your translation in red. It should be "with" instead. It makes a big difference in the MEANING of the verse. The verse says that the book is sent down with them, not sent down to them. Here, it can be the already existing books that the messenger should keep preaching, inviting the people to stop their divination, and to come back to the right path and start upholding the book again.
2nd Verse 735 clearly ADDRESSES US as the CHILDREN of Adam, and informs us that as long as CHILDREN of Adam/HUMANS, are living on this Earth, GOD, SWT, sends MESSENGERS from among ourselves, to us, if He wills.
735
O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from amongst you, reciting to you, My Verses, then whosoever becomes pious and righteous, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Messengers do not bring NEW books, they just PREACH/narrate the existing ones. PROPHETS are the one that GOD, SWT, gives them books and law. And, Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was the LAST of the prophets. See 3340 below.
Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of All?h and the last (end) of the Prophets]. And All?h is Ever All?Aware of everything.
Peace,
Khalil -
Mr Raging,
Do you comprehend what you say? You are saying that God the Most Gracious the Most Merciful put clear signs in the Quran to deceive people. What sort of imaginary God do you serve Mr.Raging. Because it is quite clear that you don?t serve my God who doesn?t put signs in the Quran to deceive people but rather to increase our faith(imam) in the book.In addition when God says that he will guide whom he will and lead astray whom he will he is only referring to people who have not acknowledged his signs. God is not the type of being that will just misguide someone without a cause.
The first stage in belief is acknowledgment. Since you say that God signs are not real in his book then it is you who are not guided. How can you be a believer in the Quran if you don?t acknowledge Gods signs and claim they are meant to deceive people? What sort of God do you serve?299 We have sent down to you clear signs; only the evil ones would not appreciate them. (the Quran)
34 Before; He sent down the Criterion as guidance for the people. For those who become unappreciative of God's signs, they will have a tough retribution, and God is Noble, exacting in Revenge.
2118 And those who do not know said "If only God would speak to us, or a sign would come to us." It is the same thing that the people before them have said, their hearts are so similar! We have clarified the signs for a people who comprehend.
7182 As for those who deny Our signs, We will gradually lead them from where they do not know. (The First stage in belief is acknowledgment. Those who willfully choose not to believe in God?s signs will be lead astray.)
Also you (and those you reject God?s Signs) still haven't given me a proper answer to my question. What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras?