Reasons why there can't be two Gods
-
You are making many errors OPF. Don`t tell me this madness should be taught as truth!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo
Islamic views
Several Qur'anic verses explicitly state that God created man, the heavens and the earth, out of nothing. The following quotations come from Muhammad Asad's translation, The Message of the Quran
2117 "The Originator is He of the heavens and the earth and when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, 'Be' - and it is."
1967 "But does man not bear in mind that We have created him aforetime out of nothing?"
2130 "ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were one single entity, which We then parted asunder? ? and We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, believe?"
2156 "He answered 'Nay, but your Sustainer is the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth - He who has brought them into being and I am one of those who bear witness to this !'"
351 "ALL PRAISE is due to God, Originator of the heavens and the earth, who causes the angels to be (His) message-bearers, endowed with wings, two, or three, or four. He adds to His creation whatever He wills for, verily, God has the power to will anything."
5147 "It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." -
So, respected and very very nice brother!-----Deos this Verse tells you to call people dumb!
At another place, Allah advices us to do good in return to bad.
So, I will always call you respected and nice brother!
Does it say I should not? This verse has nothing to do with it.
-
Peace,
None of those verses present a clear argument for creation ex nihilo; check the wording yourself. 1967 states man was once nothing, not that he was created from nothing. 41 explicitly states mankind is created from a single entity. 2130 directly states the heaven and earth were one, split apart - not created ex nihilo. 2435 states unambiguously " ".
-
So you`re saying that God was once one, and now is split apart? ;D
-
Peace,
That is incorrect. The fact remains that the heavens and earth are created out of something, not nothing; that is the giving of form to something that was formless. This correlates perfectly with scientific observation. Energy itself is indestructible & formless, the universe is energy given shape. That has nothing to do with God's unity. There has always been a single reality, which is the reality of God. This unchanging reality contains the observable universe (his speech, 673). A creation separate/independent to its creator implies they both exist in some reality that transcends both. Nothing transcends ALLAH.
-
Peace.
I am amazed that you don`t see your own logical errors. Forming the formless and so forth.
God says Be, and it is. In other words, Gods say be, and it exists. It does not have to be God, it can be separate from God. -
Peace,
The fact is that creation ex nihilo is not supported in the quran or by observation of reality.
All evidence points to a single reality (self-luminous light) existing alone acting as the background/source for creation.
Until you can prove to me that " " is not a direct statement, please hold back your accusations.
This verse directly contradicts everything you have said about creation being separate from creator.
May God guide us both to the truth.
-
Does it say I should not? This verse has nothing to do with it.
Your Allah says in His Quran, you should not.
-
OPF
Peace.
So you are arguing that creation is within God, which you call reality. A sort of panentheism.
While I am arguing that thought is realer, and creates what we call reality, without being it. This is really what I found everywhere, when I researched it. This is the classic view of creator and created.
Some places I also found pantheism, though usually coupled with classic statements, so it was confused. For instance hinduism, where brahman is some places stated to be everything, and eternal. So they argue an eternal universe. Though combined with the statement that Atman (soul) is inside, and is the same as Brahman.
Why would atman not be then everything?
The same argument can be used in Islam also ofcourse. Why would ruh, give only mind, if it was everything.
Some places you find panentheism, in the form that everything exists within the mind of God. So creation is imagination inside the mind of God, one could say.
Still why does all these religions and philosophies argue, that consciousness is God? (Logos, Ruh, Mind, Atman, Ruach, and so forth).
If you were to state the truth from God himself, why not say, these things without contradiction?
You dont find pantheism or panentheism without it being mixed with classic thought. The soul is always inside. Consciousness is consciousness, not everything. The creator is immaterial. In most thoughts you can find, that consciousness is the creator. Brahman is atman, Ruh is Allah.
Do you think that the whole of religion, from so many places, would be stated differently if pantheism and panentheism is true?
Why does God state that Ruh is Allah, etc, if Ruh would be everything. Or everything inside Ruh.
Pantheism and panetheism seems to be distortion to me.
About scientific thought, things seem to be obserable quite easily. No need to add or associate with it.
Consciousness is consciousness. Object is object. Object has no will of it`s own, so it must be from consciousness.
And so forth. I am not sure if you understand what I mean.
-
Peace,
I am not pantheistic or panentheistic. I was when I joined this forum but since then I have realised the truth is beyond any ism, it is so simple that isms can only distort. Look around you, you are seeing the word of ALLAH (be and it is). Now we can agree, that I am touching this same reality that you are. That is all that matters. You accept this reality exactly as it is, I accept this reality as it is, then we cannot be in any real disagreement.
This is the one reality that exists free of time/space. Even when the universe and all creation are/were nowhere to be seen, this is the same reality that will stay (5527).
Now I can see what you are trying to imply. ALLAH is/has ruh, this I don't know enough to comment. If you can give me a verse stating ALLAH = ruh, that would be a good help. I don't remember seeing one in al-quran.
ALLAH explicitly is noor (light/energy/power) . ALLAH explicitly is al-haqq (absolute truth/knowingness itself) . ALLAH creates the universe with haqq (truth/knowledge) .
Haqq is immaterial like numbers are. Noor creates shape using haqq - all you see in the universe is the interaction between light/energy/substance and numbers/proportion/truth. Haqq is like grains of sand where Al-Haqq is like sand itself. Creation is like a sand castle, made of haqq, existing by virtue of al-Haqq. Nothing can be outside of al-haqq otherwise it would not be al-haqq, there would be another genuine al-haqq containing "al-haqq" and what that did not contain. So we have to conclude it is part of al-haqq.
And given that it is one ALLAH, then noor is also al-haqq. And science tells us that noor has always existed and cannot die. Perhaps what you think I was trying to say is that haqq (truth/essence of creation) = al-Haqq (absolute reality), which I never meant.
-
Ruh = Allah http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/32/9/
But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding) little thanks do ye give!
Allah is the light of the earth yes. When I think of an allknowing entity behind everything, creation is bathed in light.
A verse that is rarely translated correctly is 573 http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/57/3/
This should read "He is the first (word), the last (word), the conscious and the subconscious"
I traced this expression, first and the last, back to hinduism, where it is stated that The Word created everything, and this was associated with Brahma and Sarasawti. This is most probably Abraham and Sarai of Judaism. The Bible speaks of Abrahams God, and uses the phrase First and The last instead. In the hebrew bible, opening states GOD Alef-Tav created the world. Alef and Tav are first and last signs of the hebrew alphabet. However signs are also words in the hebrew alphabet, so you can translate it to, first word, last word. In the bible you also see the phrase "The word was (is) God". In the Quran, 573 additional statements come with this phrase, to again clarify what it means. A good modern translation of this would be, conscious and subconscious.
As a gnostic, I have also been inspired that "All words are derived of the first word" (in gnosis). First word, is First cause. We are all really derivatives of the same argument in Gods mind. And everything is our creation.
Thought is the only one, and creates everything.
Peace Be With You
-
Your Allah says in His Quran, you should not.
He doesn't.
-
Peace,
1753 And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man.
"Thought is the only one, and creates everything."
That is my perspective too.
Consider this verse 2123 - He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.
The creator is the permanent, never changing. Once something is true, its truth can never be open to questioning, time cannot be turned back. That is the timeless nature of any truth once it becomes reality. I see "it" as a consciousness that creates/stores/uses knowledge.
-
Peace be with You.
Allah Akbar or, should we say, Thought is the best )
-
So you are arguing that creation is within God, which you call reality. A sort of panentheism.
Some places I also found pantheism, though usually coupled with classic statements, so it was confused. For instance hinduism, where brahman is some places stated to be everything, and eternal. So they argue an eternal universe. Though combined with the statement that Atman (soul) is inside, and is the same as Brahman.
The only exact definition of God is; God is God..
And the reason why it is impossible that there are more than one God is because God are boundless / infinite..
When there are more than one God then all of them must have some kind of 'boundary' / 'border' / 'limit' which intersect between those Gods..As to the question whether 'creation' is within or outside God.. well the answer is both within and outside since the conception of "IN" and "OUT" only exist when there's a space... and given no space then there will be no "IN" or "OUT".
The similitude in math will be the conception of infinity (∞.
Unlike other number which have a comparison or can be defined.. such as 10 is 5 X 2 or 15 is 10+5
are incomparable; the only valid equation will be = ..
And you can't operate with other number.. X 2 or / 3 are uncountable given you need to know the limit of a thing before you can multiply or divide it with something..And how many could be possibly there to exist? well the answer will be only 1.. given if its more than one then it shall not be anymore... yet it will be a finite number..
Now about the 'eternal universe'.. well it's true.. it depends on how you define a 'universe'..
IF.. universe is the billion of galaxies which exist in our space well yes it is finite.. it has a beginning as thus it shall have an end... However there are multiple universe, perhaps exist in parallel and infinite in number as well (we don't know). and there's always new universes being created... (and destroyed)..In the Quran God is being reffered as Rabb Al-Alamyn (Maintainer of Universes) given 'Alamyn' is plural form of 'Alam'.. which imply there are multiple 'alam' / 'universe'.. and perhaps unlimited in number as well.. and He is the maintainer of it all..
Salam / Peace
-
So there is more then just one universe? That's cool xD
-
Salam,
So there is more then just one universe? That's cool xD
http//space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.pdf
The idea is not unknown to physics.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
http//www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/paralleluni.shtmlNow, to tell you why there can or can not be one God, I must know how you define "ONE".
PEACE
-------------------- Student of Allah
-
I didn't ask to prove me there's only one God, I explained why there's only one.
-
I didn't ask to prove me there's only one God, I explained why there's only one.
Salam,
From the way I see it,
Explanation With faith in God and his ayaat Because God said so.
Explanation without faith in God there could be any number. Interesting thing to notice is that, say there are 10 Gods, as long as all act GODLY, their judgement will be IDENTICAL since all have to be 100% GODLY. That will funnel them down to the ONE-ness P
PEACE BE ON YOU
---------------- Student of Allah
-
I didn't ask to prove me there's only one God, I explained why there's only one.
Because if there's more than one God then it's not God anymore..
Similitude in math 2 X are uncountable / indefinite / illogical..
While every equation in math implicitly denote multiplication of 1.. for example
10 = 2 X 5 are 1 X 10 = 1 X 2 X 5Can you explain why there should be more than one?
PS This also refute the conception of 'trinity' as / 3 are also uncountable / indefinite / illogical..
Salam / Peace