Inheritance according to Qur?an
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Quran translators translate 'nushooz' as disobedience and 'fahisha' as lewdness. How would you translate it then?
I gotta sleep now. It is 603 am here lol.
Well I encourage you to look up some occurrences of fahisha in Quran after you get some sleep. There is a verse that gives some examples of what it can consist of. Lewdness or disobedience towards another human being is not one of them. Have a good sleep.
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some linguistic and logical arguments the verse can't possibly be understood as a general rule
- not everyone has wealth, therefor not everyone can spend from their wealth (exception)
- not everyone who has wealth spends from it to 'protect' others (exception)
- women can protect men (exception)
- not all men are bestowed by Allah over others (exception)
- women can be bestowed by Allah over others (exception)
Add to this the understanding men and women are equal. How on earth can you suggest interpreting this as a general rule? It can only be an illustrative example of what to do in the situation you as a believer (regardless of gender) are confronted with the one you protect (regardless of gender) turning to nushuz (fahisha) IF you are protecting someone from your wealth. Not even a hint towards gender roles in this verse.
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Peace Samira,
I think it will reach a much wider audience and will be more helpful to you in your quest for the truth if you start a new general thread relevant to the issues you have raised about the quran, instead of posting your general findings and questions in inheritance thread. Just a suggestion!
May the love and light of the infinite Creator be with you.
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Peace be upon you,
some linguistic and logical arguments the verse can't possibly be understood as a general rule
- not everyone has wealth, therefor not everyone can spend from their wealth (exception)
- not everyone who has wealth spends from it to 'protect' others (exception)
- women can protect men (exception)
- not all men are bestowed by Allah over others (exception)
- women can be bestowed by Allah over others (exception)
Add to this the understanding men and women are equal. How on earth can you suggest interpreting this as a general rule? It can only be an illustrative example of what to do in the situation you as a believer (regardless of gender) are confronted with the one you protect (regardless of gender) turning to nushuz (fahisha) IF you are protecting someone from your wealth. Not even a hint towards gender roles in this verse.
Exactly! Despite all the evidence that it is not a generalization, you keep mistranslating the relevant words and making it a generalization by using gender specific words such as "men" for "rijaal" and "women" for "nisaa".
The classical Arabic words "rijaal" and "nisaa" are gender neutral and do not mean men or women only respectively. Kindly be intellectually honest with yourself and stop mistranslating those words as gender specific English words and presto there will be no more inconsistency in the verse.
Samia who is an Arabic linguistics expert has already given proof and linguistic analysis that "rijaal" cannot mean "men" only and "nisaa" cannot mean "women" only in al-quran. If you disagree with that then you can study and continue the discussion of meaning of those words with Samia in the relevant thread I referenced earlier. I will repost the link because looks like you missed it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597307.0
When discussions become repetitive it is time to quit!
I leave you in the love and light of the infinite Creator.
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Samia who is an Arabic linguistics expert has already given proof and linguistic analysis that "rijaal" cannot mean "men" only and "nisaa" cannot mean "women" only in al-quran. If you disagree with that then you can study and continue the discussion of meaning of those words with Samia in the relevant thread I referenced earlier. I will repost the link because looks like you missed it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597307.0
Sister Samia is NOT a linguistic nor she claims to be. To say Nisa and Rijjal can refer to both men and women is but conjecture and misconceived notion. I had to ask her a delicacy since she was the only moderator who knew Arabic grammar. Thereat, she agreed;
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Re What is the difference between "Nissa, Amraat and Azwaj"
? Reply #38 on October 30, 2008, 041550 AM ?Quote Quote from Mazhar on October 29, 2008, 020315 AM
Sister I requested you to explain for my knowledge about hamza issue.Sorry for the belated reply.
You are right in believing that "nisaa'" is a possible plural of "nuun seen wau", with the wau coming at the end of the word and following an extra alif, then it will be changed into a hamza.
But if we already have this plural in (niswa), why would the language cut another plural with the same meaning? Seebawayh tried to solve this problem by stating that "niswa" is for a fewer number of women, and "nisaa'" is for many. But we know this is incorrect, since the qur'aan stated (nisaa'an more than two), which is the minimum plural.Grand Qur'aan has used Niswatun as diminutive noun to show few women in Chapter 12.
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nisaa' is the same word form as rijaal, both are plurals.
rijaal is used as plural for men, but obviously in the Qur'an itself its meaning, and that of the singular, rajul, is nto restricted to males, it depends on the context.
Nisaa' is used as a plural for women. My view is that it can be used also with other meanings, but which is which equally would depend on the context.
The context, in Arabic, is in fact what actualises the meaning of words, of any word, because concepts in Arabic ar attached to roots, and it is the actual apppearance of whatever word which will give it the value for that context.
General, if it fits, wear it. If it does not fit, don't. To justify the meaning of a word, the whole setting of it must be in agreement with the given meaning, if it is not, then, no bargaining as to whether the word means this or that. If it does nto fit it does not mean anything. The whole sentence or paragraph must sustain and be sustained with the meaning, if not, then we are wrong.
As to sister Samia, I miss her indeed and I learnt a lot reading her contributions. She was also very polite and ready to help. Not that I always agreed with her, but that was another of her good points, it did not annoy her int he least.
Other than that, nisaa' goes to the root n-s-', just as rijaal goes to the root r-j-l
rijaal - nisaa'
Salaam
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rijaal is used as plural for men, but obviously in the Qur'an itself its meaning, and that of the singular, rajul, is nto restricted to males, it depends on the context.
Nisaa' is used as a plural for women. My view is that it can be used also with other meanings, but which is which equally would depend on the context.
Can you quote just one instance where you can take it otherwise?
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Please don't take offence, if you know above point please analyse the aforementioned Ayahs according to accepted norms of translating a text.
Salaam, OK we're all here if you have better then apply answer questions?
Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 021642 AM
2 daughters are apportioned 2/3 of wealth of the deceased parent by Allah the Exalted, inalienably.
husband, mother, and father surviving are to be given according to the will of the deceased from the remaining 1/3rd.Explain (no will) he was suddenly hit in the head with a brick?
Explain which part states exactly two daughters get 2/3?
Explain be consistent (no will) 2 sons, husband, mother, father?Please use verses #'s for benefit of others state exactly which Arabic word/s you are translating as what in English.
Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 025131 AM
It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Kana", and is about its fronted predicate. It means "However, if brothers and sisters of the deceased also existed, thereby, the One Sixth shall be the share apportioned for his Mother."Are you sure it's plural applicable to either sex and have you cross-referenced all occurrences without dialectic marks?
Then distribute (no will) hit with a brick 2 daughters, mother, 1 sister, 1 brother
Again, explain which verses you are applying and which Arabic word/s you are translating as what?
In addition fill in template below (no will), do same for husband and...
2 daughters, 3+ daughters, 2+ sons, 2 sisters, 3+ sisters, 2+ brothersmother father 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister
mother father 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 son wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister 1 brother
father 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter 1 son wife
mother father 1 daughter 1 son 1 sister
mother father 1 daughter 1 son 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter wife 1 sister
mother father 1 daughter wife 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 son wife 1 sister
mother father 1 son wife 1 brother
mother father 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
mother father wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister
mother 1 daughter 1 son wife 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
mother 1 daughter wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter 1 son
mother father 1 daughter wife
mother father 1 daughter 1 sister
mother father 1 daughter 1 brother
mother father 1 son wife
mother father 1 son 1 sister
mother father 1 son 1 brother
mother father wife 1 sister
mother father wife 1 brother
mother father 1 sister 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 son wife
mother 1 daughter 1 son 1 sister
mother 1 daughter 1 son 1 brother
mother 1 daughter wife 1 sister
mother 1 daughter wife 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 sister 1 brother
mother 1 son wife 1 sister
mother 1 son wife 1 brother
mother 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
mother wife 1 sister 1 brother
father 1 daughter 1 son wife
father 1 daughter 1 son 1 sister
father 1 daughter 1 son 1 brother
father 1 daughter wife 1 sister
father 1 daughter wife 1 brother
father 1 daughter 1 sister 1 brother
father 1 son wife 1 sister
father 1 son wife 1 brother
father 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
father wife 1 sister 1 brother
1 daughter 1 son wife 1 sister
1 daughter 1 son wife 1 brother
1 daughter 1 son 1 sister 1 brother
1 daughter wife 1 sister 1 brother
1 son wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father 1 daughter
mother father 1 son
mother father wife
mother father 1 sister
mother father 1 brother
mother 1 daughter 1 son
mother 1 daughter wife
mother 1 daughter 1 sister
mother 1 daughter 1 brother
mother 1 son wife
mother 1 son 1 sister
mother 1 son 1 brother
mother wife 1 sister
mother wife 1 brother
mother 1 sister 1 brother
father 1 daughter 1 son
father 1 daughter wife
father 1 daughter 1 sister
father 1 daughter 1 brother
father 1 son wife
father 1 son 1 sister
father 1 son 1 brother
father wife 1 sister
father wife 1 brother
father 1 sister 1 brother
1 daughter 1 son wife
1 daughter 1 son 1 sister
1 daughter 1 son 1 brother
1 daughter wife 1 sister
1 daughter wife 1 brother
1 daughter 1 sister 1 brother
1 son wife 1 sister
1 son wife 1 brother
1 son 1 sister 1 brother
wife 1 sister 1 brother
mother father
mother 1 daughter
mother 1 son
mother wife
mother 1 sister
mother 1 brother
father 1 daughter
father 1 son
father wife
father 1 sister
father 1 brother
1 daughter 1 son
1 daughter wife
1 daughter 1 sister
1 daughter 1 brother
1 son wife
1 son 1 sister
1 son 1 brother
wife 1 sister
wife 1 brother
1 sister 1 brother -
An example of gender neutral word in English would be "students" which includes men and women. The context would determine what gender it refers to.
The students were having periods/menstruation ----- clearly students include only females.
The students were reading books ----- clearly students include males and females.Peace truthseeker11 -- pertaining to inheritance nisa/students whatever refers to females...
411 ... so if kunna/be they (feminine plural) nisan/womenfolk fawqa/above ith'natayni/two (females) falahunna/so for them (feminine plural) third dual (2/3) what left
4176... and if kn/be they of ikh'watan/siblings rijlan/menfolk of wanisan/and womenfolk so to the male similitude apportion al-unthayayni/the two (females)
Dear Noon,
Kindly concentrate on what I stated. Your premise is imaginative, nothing to do with injunctions of Qur'aan. Please dirstly say something about those points, you might realize where lies the fault.
OK Mazhar, it's all imaginative 1/8, 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3...
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OK Mazhar, it's all imaginative 1/8, 1/6, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3...
Dear what you wish not to see is that a condition clause is exclusive to another conditional clause. If you were little aware of legal parlance, you cannot jumble up all the conditional clauses and their apodosis clause and start making them one for all clauses.
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@Noon
"to the male similitude apportion the two (females)"
Which means the distribution, when two females and one male, is equal for all of them?
Perhaps although there are problems when applying consistently with 4176
As to sister Samia, I miss her indeed and I learnt a lot reading her contributions. She was also very polite and ready to help. Not that I always agreed with her, but that was another of her good points, it did not annoy her int he least.
Salaam huruf, yes do miss sister Samia as well which comes to mind our conversations...
411 have to ask where are instructions for exactly 2 daughters?
4176 we have to ask where are the instructions for 3+ sisters?She did point out they were there exactly two 411 and 3+ in 4176 thus an alternative reading/view would be
411 instructs you the god in awldikum/offspring yours
1 daughter 1/2 fixed 1 son 1/2 - 411 and if be she one so for her the half
2 daughters 1/4 each 1 son 1/2 - 411 to the male similitude apportion the two females
3 daughters 2/3 fixed 1 son 1/3 - 411 so if be nisan over two (f) so for them (f) 2/31 daughter 1/2 fixed 2 sons 1/4 each
2 daughters 1/5 each 2 sons 2/5 each
3 daughters 2/3 fixed 2 sons 1/6 each (nisa case 3+ females)1 daughter 1/2 fixed 3 sons 1/6 each
2 daughters 1/8 each 3 sons 1/4 each
3 daughters 2/3 fixed 3 sons 1/9 each (nisa case 3+ females)4176 they seek ruling your say the god gives ruling you in al-kalalati
1 sister 1/2 fixed 1 brother 1/2 - 4176 and for him sister so for her half
2 sisters 2/3 fixed 1 brother 1/3 - 4176 so if be dual two (f) so to them dual (f) the third each (2/3)
3 sisters 1/5 each 1 brother 2/5 - 4176 so to the male similitude apportion the two females1 sister 1/2 fixed 2 brothers 1/4 each
2 sisters 2/3 fixed 2 brothers 1/6 each
3 sisters 1/6 each 2 brothers 1/3 each (nisa case 3+ females)1 sister 1/2 fixed 3 brothers 1/6 each
2 sisters 2/3 fixed 3 brothers 1/9 each
3 sisters 1/9 each 3 brothers 2/9 each (nisa case 3+ females)Peace
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Peace Truthseeker.
I am still unclear. Look is "My "Ibaadi"( servants or whatever you translate the word as...) in the verse implying GOD s or Muhammed s?
Also you say this
Lastly, even God allegedly wants us to follow the best of what has been sent down from God
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
This implies that God does not want us to follow ALL that is sent down from God but only the best and which implies that some of what God has sent down is not the best and should not be followed! God is perhaps not confident about all of what God sent down?????? Is this God really the infinite Creator whose EVERY inspiration is perfection and the best??????
Wrong understanding of GOD wants you to follow all of it .
simply means Follow the best path that is pointed out for you by your Lord, before the retribution overtakes you suddenly when you least expect it.(Not follow some and leave some?)GOD bless you .
Peace. -
Peace Truthseeker.
I am still unclear. Look is "My "Ibaadi"( servants or whatever you translate the word as...) in the verse implying GOD s or Muhammed s?
Also you say this
Lastly, even God allegedly wants us to follow the best of what has been sent down from God
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
This implies that God does not want us to follow ALL that is sent down from God but only the best and which implies that some of what God has sent down is not the best and should not be followed! God is perhaps not confident about all of what God sent down?????? Is this God really the infinite Creator whose EVERY inspiration is perfection and the best??????
Wrong understanding of GOD wants you to follow all of it .
simply means Follow the best path that is pointed out for you by your Lord, before the retribution overtakes you suddenly when you least expect it.(Not follow some and leave some?)GOD bless you .
Peace.This further clarifies your view point
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.55a.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.55b.gif
Like this simple and vivid communication, We render the miscellany of Unitary verbal passages individuated; distinguishing and exposing information in crystallized manner.
The objective is that the Path-conduct of criminals may become self demarcated-manifested-highlighted.Grand Qur'aan talks about every person. The best course of conduct is given while worst course adopted by people is also given. Instruction is to diligently pursue the best course.
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Dear what you wish not to see is that a condition clause is exclusive to another conditional clause. If you were little aware of legal parlance, you cannot jumble up all the conditional clauses and their apodosis clause and start making them one for all clauses.
Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 025131 AM
It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Kana", and is about its fronted predicate. It means "However, if brothers and sisters of the deceased also existed, thereby, the One Sixth shall be the share apportioned for his Mother."Dear Mazhar, since you posted above and understand legal parlance.
Allocate assets tell which verses you're applying; takes few minutes?
mother 1 sister
mother 2 sisters
mother 3 sistersmother 1 brother 1 sister
mother 1 brother 2 sisters
mother 1 brother 3 sistersPeace
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Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 025131 AM
It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Kana", and is about its fronted predicate. It means "However, if brothers and sisters of the deceased also existed, thereby, the One Sixth shall be the share apportioned for his Mother."Dear Mazhar, since you posted above and understand legal parlance.
Allocate assets tell which verses you're applying; takes few minutes?
mother 1 sister
mother 2 sisters
mother 3 sistersmother 1 brother 1 sister
mother 1 brother 2 sisters
mother 1 brother 3 sistersPeace
Whatever might be the ground reality about the deceased and the bereaved survivors who will inherit the wealth left by deceased are inalienably allocated by Allah the Exalted to the maximum of two thirds of inheritance, and has left 1/3rd according to the will of deceased provided it has no tilt and patent injustice whereat it can be modified by the survivors/court.
A. First four sentences of Ayah 411 deal with inheritance in case of death of Parents to progenies
- One female/daughter 1/2 of wealth.
- Two females/daughters 2/3rd
- Two daughters + women/daughters = 2/3rd
- Two sisters + son = 2/3rd
- Progenies exceeding one daughter = 2/3rd
Progenies exceeding one dauther if comprise mixed genders the fortune accruing to two females will be allocated on to one male]
Please carefully notice that if a parent is he/she who died leaving only one son or no son is NOT mentioned in these conditional sentences.B. Sentences 5 to 7 of Ayah 411 deal situation where a married son of living parents has died.
From Married Son to parents, wife and one surviving son, or without son.- If bereaved by one son; surviving father and mother get 1/6th each
- If did not have a son; is survived by both parents; 1/3rd is allocated for the mother of deceased;
- If alongwith surviving parent, the deceased has brothers, the share of the modher is reduced to 1/6th.
Continues with 412
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If the Man is bereaved by son, the share for bereaved wife is 1/8th;
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If not bereaved by a son; the share allocated for bereaved wife is 1/4th.
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If the deceased is woman, the husband will get 1/2 if she is not bereaved by one son; and 1/4th if she is bereaved by one sone.
C Sentences 7 and eight decsribed about the deceased man or woman was in state of Kalala spouse less; with single parent surviving; and one son surviving.
- In the bereaved is either brother or sister; he or she will get 1/6th;
- If the brothers and sisters are more than one they will get 1/3rd of inheritance.
D 4176
The above allocations by Allah the Exalted did not mention about only one situation that might be a ground reality. People hastened asking the Messenger to give verdict about that. The situation is about a person dying as Kalala bachelor or spouseless without bereaved by a son. Verdict was given by Allah as under- If deceased bachelor or spous less without leaving a son is a person who is bereaved by a sister; her share will be one half of wealth left;
- If a sister died in such state leaving a bereaved brother who is her heir he will get 1/2 of her wealth.
- If the deceased Kalala without a son has two sisters to bereave him, two third of wealth will accrue to these two sisters.
- If sibblings were a composition of brothers and sisters, they will get the same two third to be distributed amiongst them on the principle of two shares accruing to two sisters will be given to one male.
These are shares apportioned by Allah the Exalted superseding the will of the deceased. Will for remaining wealth will prevail. If will is not left, it will be decided by the near relatives or by the court adhering to principle of preference for nearness discarding the relatively distant rellationships.
Noon,
Please critically peruse the article and I will welcome and appreciate if you negate by argument based on the words and sentences of Qur'aan.Inheritance according to injunctions in Grand Qur'aan
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A. First four sentences of Ayah 411 deal with inheritance in case of death of Parents to progenies
- One female/daughter 1/2 of wealth.
OK 411 ? and if knat/be she widatan/one so for her the half
- Two females/daughters 2/3rd
Where you get exactly two daughters get 2/3?
411 ? fawqa/above two (f) so for them (f/p) third dual (2/3)
fawqa/above/greater than > two cannot be equal and above => two!
above > it!
above > you!
above > them!618 ... fawqa/above servants his NOT equal and above => servants his!
- Two daughters + women/daughters = 2/3rd
Why two daughters + women/daughters -- what are you saying?
- Two sisters + son = 2/3rd
What verses?
411 ? falahunna/so for them (feminine plural) 2/3
4176 ? falahum/so to them dual (feminine) the third each- Progenies exceeding one daughter = 2/3rd
Please post verse 2+ daughters and/or sons get 2/3?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=9839
falahunna (feminine plural) includes males?Noon,
Please critically peruse the article and I will welcome and appreciate if you negate by argument based on the words and sentences of Qur'aan.Mazhar, lets stay focused on above according to words and sentences of Qur'an then we can proceed.
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OK 411 ? and if knat/be she widatan/one so for her the half
Where you get exactly two daughters get 2/3?
411 ? fawqa/above two (f) so for them (f/p) third dual (2/3)
fawqa/above/greater than > two cannot be equal and above => two!
above > it!
above > you!
above > them!618 ... fawqa/above servants his NOT equal and above => servants his!
Why two daughters + women/daughters -- what are you saying?
What verses?
411 ? falahunna/so for them (feminine plural) 2/3
4176 ? falahum/so to them dual (feminine) the third eachPlease post verse 2+ daughters and/or sons get 2/3?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=9839
falahunna (feminine plural) includes males?Mazhar, lets stay focused on above according to words and sentences of Qur'an then we can proceed.
This is what I am trying to pursuade you. First step is to know the propositions inherent in each word before studying phrases and sentences to arrive at correct understanding of the embedded information.
Red pronoun denotes second person plural masculine and is the object of verb. I hope you know that plural nouns have inclusions and exclusions with reference to the text. Who are excluded from this otherwise plural noun? Who are restrictively included in this pronoun?
It is possessive phrase. Who are included in this plural noun and excluded from it for the purposes of making it a referent in subsequent verbs?
Do you know the above two points; please share so that we proceed further.
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Do you know the above two points; please share so that we proceed further.
411 instructs you the god in awldikum/offspring yours
2233 and the mothers breastfeed they awldahunna/offspring theirsNot sure what's not clear or if you have translation other than offspring/children?
Now please answer questions without perpetual questions, did you not write this?
Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 025131 AM
It is plural and is NOMINATIVE. It is the subject noun of deficient perfect verb "Kana", and is about its fronted predicate. It means "However, if brothers and sisters of the deceased also existed, thereby, the One Sixth shall be the share apportioned for his Mother."Which I asked you to allocate assets tell which verses you are applying?
mother 1 sister
mother 2 sisters
mother 3 sistersmother 1 brother 1 sister
mother 1 brother 2 sisters
mother 1 brother 3 sistersLikewise where does it say that exactly two daughters get 2/3?
411 ? fawqa/above two (f) so for them (f/p) third dual (2/3)
fawqa/above/greater than > two CANNOT be equal and above => two!
618 ... fawqa/above servants his NOT equal and above => servants his!