The Challenge Yet To Be Met

zulf81

I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean to replace Islam with Deism for I am very much a Muslim. I do however believe that the truth can be found from a variety of sources. I believe that God set the wheels in motion, created laws to govern almost everything creation needed to survive, and necessarily stayed hands off in order for us to maintain our ability to choose our destiny for ourselves.

Additionally, I do believe that choice exists in reality, for the only thing that you know for sure when you make a choice, is that you made one. What's more real or true than first hand experience? Many people are willing to accept second-hand information as the truth, but they are uncomfortable with accepting their own perception of reality. Choice exists regardless of consequence, because what you are choosing between is instant gratification, and long-term gratification. You have the choice to determine which one is more important to you, and the consequences of your actions are necessarily based on the level of importance you placed on each of the options.

I'm assuming you have some sort of connection to Islam, and I think I have something that can help you open your mind up to other ways of thinking about Islam beyond what's even on this site. This site is great, but I took what I learned from here, and I opened my mind up to applications beyond religion itself.

Below is a link to an amazing book that I read a few months ago, and believe me when I say that it blew my mind. You may not agree with everything but that's okay because no one has all the answers, but I will tell you that this book explained the Quranic message in the most reasonable and logical way possible. Its so good in fact, that I think people of all faiths can apply the ideas to their beliefs. The gentlemen who wrote the book had a PHD in Philosophy if I remember right, and his approach is very scientific. He avoids asking you to take unreasonably leaps of faith, and instead explains things as logically as possible.

http//www.stirringmind.com/library/articles/

If you read the book, and like it; get back to me and tell me what you think, because I would really like to discuss it with someone else who finds it fascinating. You can contact me on here, or through my site listed above if you want to tell me what you think

Good luck on your journey towards the truth.

zulf81

Sorry I forgot to give you the name of the book. The name is "Islam A Challenge to Religion", its a free PDF book, and I have a link to it on my site that I posted above. Its written by Ghulam Ahmad Pervez

StopS

I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean to replace Islam with Deism for I am very much a Muslim. I do however believe that the truth can be found from a variety of sources. I believe that God set the wheels in motion, created laws to govern almost everything creation needed to survive, and necessarily stayed hands off in order for us to maintain our ability to choose our destiny for ourselves.

Do you think we can go one level deeper?
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?

Additionally, I do believe that choice exists in reality, for the only thing that you know for sure when you make a choice, is that you made one. What's more real or true than first hand experience? Many people are willing to accept second-hand information as the truth, but they are uncomfortable with accepting their own perception of reality. Choice exists regardless of consequence, because what you are choosing between is instant gratification, and long-term gratification. You have the choice to determine which one is more important to you, and the consequences of your actions are necessarily based on the level of importance you placed on each of the options.

Well formulated. My thinking as well.

I'm assuming you have some sort of connection to Islam, and I think I have something that can help you open your mind up to other ways of thinking about Islam beyond what's even on this site. This site is great, but I took what I learned from here, and I opened my mind up to applications beyond religion itself.

Well, there comes a time when you need to "close your mind". If you have researched and determined something, you need to take a stand and stop yielding to others.

Below is a link to an amazing book that I read a few months ago, and believe me when I say that it blew my mind. You may not agree with everything but that's okay because no one has all the answers, but I will tell you that this book explained the Quranic message in the most reasonable and logical way possible. Its so good in fact, that I think people of all faiths can apply the ideas to their beliefs. The gentlemen who wrote the book had a PHD in Philosophy if I remember right, and his approach is very scientific. He avoids asking you to take unreasonably leaps of faith, and instead explains things as logically as possible.

http//www.stirringmind.com/library/articles/

If you read the book, and like it; get back to me and tell me what you think, because I would really like to discuss it with someone else who finds it fascinating. You can contact me on here, or through my site listed above if you want to tell me what you think

Good luck on your journey towards the truth.

Can you tell me just one thing about this book that makes it amazing? I found only standard Muslim apologetics with the usual misinformation and emotional claims. But then I did not read all of it and in detail, I just skimmed over it.

zulf81

Do you think we can go one level deeper?
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?

Well formulated. My thinking as well.

Well, there comes a time when you need to "close your mind". If you have researched and determined something, you need to take a stand and stop yielding to others.

Can you tell me just one thing about this book that makes it amazing? I found only standard Muslim apologetics with the usual misinformation and emotional claims. But then I did not read all of it and in detail, I just skimmed over it.

Yes I can. I found this book amazing because it approached the Quran and Islam from a logical way. The author doesn't try to disprove the Quran, but instead tries to prove it by using reason, and not superstition and miracles. It starts by explaining what makes you, you; using modern psychology including the works of Freud. He explains what the Angels are in a logical way, which doesn't require you to believe in another supernatural being. He uses reason in order to determine what heaven and hell really are (I found this to be well written, and intriguing). Basically, its written from the perspective of a Muslim who's sort of a deist, who believes that Islam can be explained with science and nature, without looking to miracles and superstitions to help with explanations.

This guy is Pakistani, and if you look at a picture of this guy you would think he's a Mullah. When you read his words however, you realize that he's a lot more sophisticated than a common mullah. I was pleasantly surprised and proud, that such intelligent and open-minded work was the product of someone from my Dad's culture.

StopS

Yes I can. I found this book amazing because it approached the Quran and Islam from a logical way. The author doesn't try to disprove the Quran, but instead tries to prove it by using reason, and not superstition and miracles. It starts by explaining what makes you, you; using modern psychology including the works of Freud. He explains what the Angels are in a logical way, which doesn't require you to believe in another supernatural being. He uses reason in order to determine what heaven and hell really are (I found this to be well written, and intriguing). Basically, its written from the perspective of a Muslim who's sort of a deist, who believes that Islam can be explained with science and nature, without looking to miracles and superstitions to help with explanations.

This guy is Pakistani, and if you look at a picture of this guy you would think he's a Mullah. When you read his words however, you realize that he's a lot more sophisticated than a common mullah. I was pleasantly surprised and proud, that such intelligent and open-minded work was the product of someone from my Dad's culture.

We still have 3 questions pending
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?

I read this properly now and put it down on page 9. It is atrocious! He claims science can't give us values so we need to look for alternatives, which he declares are found in the Koran. He says humans can't think, therefore god.
Come on! This is pretty poor. How he gets from science to emotional and cultural values is beyond me and he never even shows how he gets from "an alternative" to Allah and the Koran.

He claims that Muhammad "had made fool-proof arrangements for its transcription and preservation, and before he died it had been fully compiled in the form of a book", something we know is not true.
Then he claims that "it is an historically established fact that not a single letter of the Book has been altered in the course of the fourteen centuries of its existence", something we also know is not true.
Then he continues that it contains "ever-abiding universal values, and offers enlightenment and perfect guidance in regard to all aspects of human life", which we know is totally false as almost all aspects of life and the civilisations and their behavioural patterns have totally changed.

He even goes into ancient superstitions of Earth being created in 2 ages, firm mountains, thunder and many others which we know today is false.

So, in summary, I am a bit surprised because you seemed a level-headed and rational person and yet you let yourself get taken in by old-fashioned apologetics.

zulf81

We still have 3 questions pending
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?

I read this properly now and put it down on page 9. It is atrocious! He claims science can't give us values so we need to look for alternatives, which he declares are found in the Koran. He says humans can't think, therefore god.
Come on! This is pretty poor. How he gets from science to emotional and cultural values is beyond me and he never even shows how he gets from "an alternative" to Allah and the Koran.

He claims that Muhammad "had made fool-proof arrangements for its transcription and preservation, and before he died it had been fully compiled in the form of a book", something we know is not true.
Then he claims that "it is an historically established fact that not a single letter of the Book has been altered in the course of the fourteen centuries of its existence", something we also know is not true.
Then he continues that it contains "ever-abiding universal values, and offers enlightenment and perfect guidance in regard to all aspects of human life", which we know is totally false as almost all aspects of life and the civilisations and their behavioural patterns have totally changed.

He even goes into ancient superstitions of Earth being created in 2 ages, firm mountains, thunder and many others which we know today is false.

So, in summary, I am a bit surprised because you seemed a level-headed and rational person and yet you let yourself get taken in by old-fashioned apologetics.

Hold on a second brother. Are you talking about "Islam An answer to religion"?

If you are let me make a few points

First off, I didn't say that I believed everything this guy says, and I believe I mentioned that earlier. If you are looking to be a follower, so that you can follow people who have ideas that you accept as the truth, then you are not a free-thinker. A free-thinker knows that perfection does not exist in reality, and thus does not accept authority as a source of truth. Since no one has the whole truth, you must be willing to sort through information from a variety of sources, so that you can separate the truth from fiction.

To address your accusation of being unreasonable; I'm not afraid of taking information from any, and every source. Many believers of organized religion are still afraid of listening to people like Richard Dawkins (a staunch atheist), because they are afraid that his words will compromise your faith. I listen to guys like Dawkins, regardless of whether I agree with him or not, because I know that if I am afraid to listening to these guys then I'm afraid of discovering that some of my beliefs are not true. I don't want to waste my life believing in B.S. so I question everything; and if I can't listen to the arguments of atheists, or others I don't agree with, then I am slowing down my progress towards the truth.

I'm just throwing my ideas out there, take use it, don't use it, I don't really care. I found the book to be informative in many ways, even though I didn't agree with everything he said. I found his explanation of many things in the Quran to be a unique perspective, and I likewise found some of his ideas to be old-fashioned. That's really the extent of my justification, because like I said I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm not the authority on truth just a seeker of it, and the only authority on the truth is the truth itself.

To address the your primary questions

What is the truth? Answer Look it up in the dictionary. I'm not the founder of Oxford Dictionary
What are the sources of the truth? Well, I don't think that's a great question, the truth is, and a lie isn't. I think the more appropriate question is how to determine if something is true. Use your ability to reason to determine the truth, and don't uphold anything that cannot be verified. One of the best ways to determine the truth is the scientific method if it can be applied to your question.
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures? If you believe in the God mentioned in the Quran, then yes God created everything, including the laws that govern all aspects of reality. So evolution walked its course governed by every law that the process is subjected to (God would run it, through his laws, not directly). If you don't get what I mean, then sit down and ponder the question yourself, and formulate in a way that helps you understand.

StopS

Hold on a second brother. Are you talking about "Islam An answer to religion"?

If you are let me make a few points

First off, I didn't say that I believed everything this guy says, and I believe I mentioned that earlier.

Ah, that would be an explanation. That means I did not register your qualification and restriction.

If you are looking to be a follower, so that you can follow people who have ideas that you accept as the truth, then you are not a free-thinker. A free-thinker knows that perfection does not exist in reality, and thus does not accept authority as a source of truth. Since no one has the whole truth, you must be willing to sort through information from a variety of sources, so that you can separate the truth from fiction.

To address your accusation of being unreasonable; I'm not afraid of taking information from any, and every source. Many believers of organized religion are still afraid of listening to people like Richard Dawkins (a staunch atheist), because they are afraid that his words will compromise your faith. I listen to guys like Dawkins, regardless of whether I agree with him or not, because I know that if I am afraid to listening to these guys then I'm afraid of discovering that some of my beliefs are not true. I don't want to waste my life believing in B.S. so I question everything; and if I can't listen to the arguments of atheists, or others I don't agree with, then I am slowing down my progress towards the truth.

Wow! Impressive. You are the first Muslim I know to talk like that. But that leaves me even more surprised by your statements concerning this Ghulam Ahmed Parwez.

I'm just throwing my ideas out there, take use it, don't use it, I don't really care. I found the book to be informative in many ways, even though I didn't agree with everything he said. I found his explanation of many things in the Quran to be a unique perspective, and I likewise found some of his ideas to be old-fashioned. That's really the extent of my justification, because like I said I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm not the authority on truth just a seeker of it, and the only authority on the truth is the truth itself.

Haha, understood and accepted.

To address the your primary questions

What is the truth? Answer Look it up in the dictionary. I'm not the founder of Oxford Dictionary
What are the sources of the truth? Well, I don't think that's a great question, the truth is, and a lie isn't. I think the more appropriate question is how to determine if something is true. Use your ability to reason to determine the truth, and don't uphold anything that cannot be verified. One of the best ways to determine the truth is the scientific method if it can be applied to your question.
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures? If you believe in the God mentioned in the Quran, then yes God created everything, including the laws that govern all aspects of reality. So evolution walked its course governed by every law that the process is subjected to (God would run it, through his laws, not directly). If you don't get what I mean, then sit down and ponder the question yourself, and formulate in a way that helps you understand.

Pity, I was not looking for a general definition, I have an internet connection and Google, so I can do that myself. No, I was hoping for YOUR understanding.
No, the scientific method does not apply to the super-natural.
Gotcha, quite straightforward.

Thank you.

Jafar

I had the same question as you do, and I can tell you that omniscience and free will is reconcilable. Most members of organized religions believe that if they ask God for something, God may answer the prayer. The problem is that God is all-knowing by definition, so if he decided to answer a prayer, that would automatically imply that God didn't have any foresight to expect that request; and if God lacked foresight to expect the future needs of his creation, that would mean that God isn't all-knowing.

Again it's another 'paganism' influence..
Within 'paganism', God/Gods/Deities can be 'persuaded' to grant human their wishes.. (through offerings/sacrifice, which sometime involves human offerings or other means..)

However "The True God" will always answer prayer..
The problem is sometime the prayee doesn't like the answer to his/her prayer...

The true objective of prayer is NOT to persuade God to grant your wishes..
It is actually to 'prepare yourselves' for what God has in store for you..
Thus the best attitude (dien) to God is islam (submission to His will)

"Let Thy Will be done, on earth as it is on heaven"
-- Jesus

"I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me."
-- Abraham Lincoln

Freewill is the ability to choose for yourself. A God that is All-knowing, has no need to interfere with the evolution of his creation; and in order to provide humanity with free will, God chose not to interfere. Some would argue that the Quran says that God controls everything, that everything submits to God, so God must be involved. But because God is all-knowing, he created every conceivable law of nature, in order to lead his creation to its destiny. By not interfering, God left some wiggle room in his laws for humans to navigate through, and the personal choices made within the limits of that wiggle room is free-will.

Again a legacy from paganism where God/Goddesses/Deities is/are separated from 'human universe/realm'..

The truth is A hair will not fall from your head if it's not in accordance to God's wishes..

Salam / Peace

zulf81

Ah, that would be an explanation. That means I did not register your qualification and restriction.

Wow! Impressive. You are the first Muslim I know to talk like that. But that leaves me even more surprised by your statements concerning this Ghulam Ahmed Parwez.

Haha, understood and accepted.

Pity, I was not looking for a general definition, I have an internet connection and Google, so I can do that myself. No, I was hoping for YOUR understanding.
No, the scientific method does not apply to the super-natural.
Gotcha, quite straightforward.

Thank you.

I don't really believe in the supernatural, if God exists he exists, if he doesn't he doesn't. We have to have a controlled definition, in order to have a constructive discussion, so I do believe that the dictionary definition is an appropriate definition. Good talk, thanks for helping me articulate my point a little more.