The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion. Only trying to truly understand. One thing has kept me from believing in god all these years. And I bring it to you as a challenge, not to end your faith, but to renew my own. Please help me in this.
According to the Quran. God knows all. The past, present, and future, everything. It is clear. There is no getting out of it.
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
To elaborate, take a piece of paper, and put it on your desk. Now you are about to scratch a line onto the paper with a pencil. Wherever you scratch, that is the Creation. Each possible line you could make is a different Creation. You know what each Creation would be, everything that happens in it. God just happened to make a scratch, say, on the rim of the upper right corner, making the Universe as we know it today, everything that happened in the past, that is happening now, and that will happen, God knows of.
That means God made a world full of suffering. God made Hell, knowing beforehand, that if he made that certain scratch, those people that deserve it, were already going to get it. That means before God made Lucifer, he knew that he would rebel, and tempt us. That means Creation is a movie directed by God, a movie that is the same as he knew it would be, full of suffering, and an eternity of Hell for those who would deserve it, but they only deserve it, because God determined it so by making the world as it is. If he had scratched just a little different on that piece of paper, that person instead of choosing to be a believer and a good person, would have been an unbeliever and a bad person, thereby making their destiny Hell, a place where you are burned forever, and your drink is boiling water.
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil. Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?
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I've never understood why knowing what's going to happen means people don't have free will.
I roughly know what will happen in my household tomorrow, does that mean no one has free will and it's all predetermined? No.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
God has attributes that qualify HIM to create; They include
Just. Merciful, Forgiver,Fair, Compassionate, All knowing, Eternal etc...
Freedom of choice means you" choose". GOD knows what you are going to do, because HE is all knowing,but you are still making your own decision.
Someone with those attributes should be completely trusted.
Peace.
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peace,
i once wonder about the same thing.
and i can't say i got final answer either. (as in the most correct)but DaresBears' first sentence is the same thinking i took back then
IMO, all you have said is a proof that god gives free will.
if god were to just create good and throw away evil.. then it'll be called pre-determined.
but god knew that human for example can choose between good and evil.
so it's up to human to behave or not.and how to behave, there's a minimun guideline given in the quran.
and still human can choosei think it's frustrating when one has the awareness of oneself but no free-will
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First, thank you all for your replies.
Second, God knew before the moment of Creation that you would all say this at this point in time.
Does that make sense? No. We have free will. But if we go by God knowing all, and before Creation began, all that would happen, we only think we have free will, when in all reality, this conversation, these thoughts, were all known to God, He knew we would have this talk, that we would think these thoughts, and he knew before Creation what the rest of this discussion would consist of, and what else we would think as it goes along.
By saying God knows all, and then adding in Creation into the equation. We have no free will, because this was known to happen before the big bang even happened.
It would be like doing a science experiment you have done a hundred times. You know exactly what will happen if you mix such a thing with this and that. You know exactly. So your not learning anything, your simply watching what you already know will happen.
Now we are the science experiment. Already doing what is bound to happen because of those ingredients. We are conditioned already to do what is bound to happen, because of that mixing.
Lucifer was conditioned to do what he was bound to do, because before God created him, he had full knowledge that he would disobey and rebel. Why would you create something, knowing it would rebel? You wouldn't. It makes no sense. It makes Creation that science experiment that has been done a hundred times, it makes Creation that movie we have seen a hundred times, and can lip each and every word to as it goes along.
Do we have free will if God knew before Creation, all that would happen? That by knowing all before Creation, that to create this way, all of the perfect conditions to create this particular Universe would happen?
Of course we have free will. But to an all knowing God, we have none. We never really choose our destiny, because God knew it since before Creation. This does not make sense.
And I don't see God coming down and trying to give us any kind of opportunity of change. He has come down to the Prophets, etc, but he already knew he would do that since before Creation.
This does not make sense. And is the only flaw I have ever found within the Quran.
And please bear in mind, those that would respond further, that God already knew what you would think and type, all before the moment of Creation.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485
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I understand what you are trying to say Savage.
But in the end, by God knowing all. He had already created all of the perfect conditions for the Universe to be the way it is now. For us to be who we are now. We are essentially conditioned to make the choices that we make.
It is cause and effect. Everything that makes me, me, is the result of my past and present genetics and biology, society and environment, thoughts, speech, and actions. There is no getting out of what makes us, us.
And for God to know all before Creation, that would mean that he had created all of the perfect conditions for me to think such a way, and to act such a way. He created the conditions, therefore no free will.
God created the perfect conditions for me to be me. By creating the Universe in such a way, by aligning time, the elements, etc, in such a way, he has conditioned me.
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God created the perfect conditions for me to be me. By creating the Universe in such a way, by aligning time, the elements, etc, in such a way, he has conditioned me.
I would take a different view. God created the conditions and we have free choice within those. If we can prove that the conditions for us could only allow one choice or however many choices all towards only one outcome throughout our existence, then we could be justifiably fatalistic. But we don't know that and free choice can exist. In the end, it would depend on what you think better explains us existentially. -
But how would we have free choice within those conditions? Compare the tribal man in Africa to the muslim woman in Saudi Arabia.
One never hears of God his entire life span. The other is born and raised a Muslim. It is destiny for that man to never hear of God, simply because the conditions are not right for it. And it is destiny for that woman to be a Muslim, simply because she was raised so.
Take for example a baby. That child is born in Tibet, taken at the age of two, and raised then on by Buddhist Monks. That child is going to be conditioned to be a Buddhist Monk. Unless somewhere in that persons life, something traumatic, or something that makes him think, changes his perception, that person will be a Monk. Conditioned.
God knew all that would happen when he made Creation. All of the conditions that would make a peron, the person they are. That would make them think in so and so a way.
It is only fatalistic, if you believe in an all knowing God. In fact, it must be fatalistic. Because God knew all that would happen before he even did Creation. He knew the conditions he had set in place, that would allow believers and non-believers.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485
".....Going back to the "states" perspective, if you were a state in this massive state machine, you'd still have the notion of free will because you don't know all possible inputs; however from a godly perspective, since everything is known, your inputs and outputs are also known."
This type of argumentation is mere equivocation. In a theological discussion, "free will" refers to the will of man being independent of God's will. To argue that man's will is "free" from his own point of view, because of imperfect knowledge, is sophistry. God's knowledge is infallible precisely because He has willed the events in time to occur.
7179 "And truly we created for Hell many from "jinn" and men. For them, hearts with which they do not understand; for them eyes with which they do not see; and for them ears with which they do not hear. These are like cattle; nay, on the contrary they are further astray, these are they who are heedless."
Does this sound like God is passively guessing at what His creatures are going to do? Or rather that God has willed all things that happen for a purpose, including the state of those who will be in Hell indefinitely?
The issue is that if God decreed everything that happens in time then He is the final cause. That's the objection being made, by the one who started this thread, who I must admit, very skillfuly, sidestepped the issue of "free will". For, the latter is completely irrelevant, as long as you admit that God decreed everything, then, as far as I can see, the author's question stands unanswered.
I would take a different view. God created the conditions and we have free choice within those. If we can prove that the conditions for us could only allow one choice or however many choices all towards only one outcome throughout our existence, then we could be justifiably fatalistic. But we don't know that and free choice can exist. In the end, it would depend on what you think better explains us existentially.
I don't understand the relevance to the objection posed. You can have all the conditions you like, but if God created them knowing what would happen, then, according to the author of this thread, God is the cause of evil and is unjust. As I said above, no amount of supposed "free will" in the creature can answer this objection, so long as you maintain God's complete foreknowledge.
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But how would we have free choice within those conditions? Compare the tribal man in Africa to the muslim woman in Saudi Arabia.
One never hears of God his entire life span. The other is born and raised a Muslim. It is destiny for that man to never hear of God, simply because the conditions are not right for it. And it is destiny for that woman to be a Muslim, simply because she was raised so.
Take for example a baby. That child is born in Tibet, taken at the age of two, and raised then on by Buddhist Monks. That child is going to be conditioned to be a Buddhist Monk. Unless somewhere in that persons life, something traumatic, or something that makes him think, changes his perception, that person will be a Monk. Conditioned.
God knew all that would happen when he made Creation. All of the conditions that would make a peron, the person they are. That would make them think in so and so a way.
It is only fatalistic, if you believe in an all knowing God. In fact, it must be fatalistic. Because God knew all that would happen before he even did Creation. He knew the conditions he had set in place, that would allow believers and non-believers.
You're mixing up conditions, choices of self, that of others and making it into one fatalistic scenario where we can do nothing except mosey on along the tracks like a train in a movie towards an inevitable outcome. An all knowing god directed the movie and is watching his script coming to life where everyone has no choice but to follow the script to the letter and act out their parts. I disagree based on a concept of my choices affecting my outcome regardless of my conditions and/or choices of others.
Knowledge of God isn't dependent on any conditions from Africa to Saudi Arabia. The premise is we all have it and/or can come to it regardless of conditions. Abraham is the best example from the quran. An all knowing God doesn't mean fatalistic system. It's fine if you think that. It isn't the only way of looking at our existence by any means.
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I've never understood why knowing what's going to happen means people don't have free will.
I roughly know what will happen in my household tomorrow, does that mean no one has free will and it's all predetermined? No.
Your knowledge is speculative, not infallible. How does God know things infallibly? Because He decreed them.
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Hoppean. The only conclusion you could possibly make is just that. Everything is pre-determined. Everything is conditioned.
God did make evil, did he not? Did he not make Satan with the foreknowledge that he would rebel and tempt us?
Did he not create suffering in the first place, when he had the choice not to?
Did he not make Hell, as well as condition many to be destined for it?
Would I not be a Muslim if God, before Creation, twisted it just a bit to where I was born and raised in say Saudi Arabia?
Many say to that, that there is a plan. But that can't be, because the plan is already fulfilled according to the Quran, by Gods knowledge of everything. There can be no plan. Only a movie, because God knows all.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bodhisvasti welcome
Knowledge does not equal culpability. If one knows of a crime, the knower is not equal to the criminal.
Likewise, a parent is not responsible for the actions of a grown child.
The same fire that warms can also burn. Is fire inherently evil? Too much water and we drown; too little and we thirst to death. Again, is evil at work?
Is evil a real force, or merely the lack of good? Darkness is the absence of light. Coldness is the absence of warmth/heat. One can't make cold; one must transport heat. One can't make dark; one must (re)move light. Evil is the lack of good, nothing more.
Here is some perspective from a Christian source http//grigaitis.net/articles/evil.html
What makes creation entitled to goodness, if we don't make it for ourselves? ALLAH isn't stingy--but there are those that are stingy/ungrateful among creation.
What is "pre-determined"/foreknown by ALLAH is not foreknown to us; we have freedom within the physical laws of the universe. That some choose evil is not a reflection on ALLAH--and ALLAH is beyond needing defense or justification in any case.
Would it change your perspective if ALLAH could know every action, but chose not to?
In any case, AQ provides a system that allows for respect for one another; it encourages good. Secular philosophy also provides a system. In what way does the belief in ALLAH make the system of islam somehow worse than belief in another system?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Abdul. That doesn't make sense, and those are poor comparisons, no offense.
God made Satan, knowing he would be evil and tempt us, before making him. God did NOT have to make Satan, but did anyways, knowing he would be evil, and tempt us. Therefore, God made evil.
When a scientist knowingly mixes chemicals into a dish that together, will explode, is that scientist not knowingly responsible? Yes.
God knew everything that would happen in the Universe, on our planet, before he made everything. Did God have to make this specific Universe? No.
Everything is inherently pre-destined if God knew all that would happen in Creation, before he even created. So that means, if God made this Universe, everything that has, and will happen, he already pre-determined, by making this particular version of Creation.
That means before Creation, this thread was already known to Him, was already clear in his mind that this conversation would take place. That is pre-destination.
Yeah. We choose. We can think. We have free will. But that is only an illusion according to the belief in an all knowing God that created us, and everything, knowing before creating, everything that would happen, and even be thought. That means that even our free will is pre-determined.
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Hoppean. The only conclusion you could possibly make is just that. Everything is pre-determined. Everything is conditioned.
God did make evil, did he not? Did he not make Satan with the foreknowledge that he would rebel and tempt us?
Did he not create suffering in the first place, when he had the choice not to?
Did he not make Hell, as well as condition many to be destined for it?
Would I not be a Muslim if God, before Creation, twisted it just a bit to where I was born and raised in say Saudi Arabia?
Many say to that, that there is a plan. But that can't be, because the plan is already fulfilled according to the Quran, by Gods knowledge of everything. There can be no plan. Only a movie, because God knows all.
While I do not disagree with anything written above, I am also not scandalized by it. For the scriptures say "At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ?What have you done?? (Daniel 434-35)
And "For the Lord has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes (the prophets), and covered your heads (the seers). And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, ?Read this,? he says, ?I cannot, for it is sealed.? And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, ?Read this,? he says, ?I cannot read.? And the Lord said ?Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men, therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.? Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel, whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, ?Who sees us? Who knows us?? You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,that the thing made should say of its maker, ?He did not make me?; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, ?He has no understanding??
It comes down to this "Oh man who are you to answer back to God? Will the thing moulded say to the moulder, "why have you made me like this?" (Romans 920)
The problem you have (if indeed you have one) is that you do not acknowledge that God is God and we are nothing. God ordaining our fall, in no way excuses us, for "necessity" is never an appeal againt justice, in this life or the next.
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Knowledge of God isn't dependent on any conditions from Africa to Saudi Arabia. The premise is we all have it and/or can come to it regardless of conditions. Abraham is the best example from the quran.
674 "And Abraham said to his father Do you make idols as objects of worship? Truly I see you and your people in clear error"
675 "And thus we caused Abraham to see the dominion of the heavens and the earth so that he would become of those who were certain"
676 "So when the night covered him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord". But when it descended he said " I do not love those that descend".
677 "So when he saw the moon rise, he said "This is my Lord". So when it descended, he said "If my Lord does not guide me, truly I will be among those people who are in error"
We do not see Abraham trusting in his "free will" or saying that "he/anyone can come to the truth about God, if he/anyone feels like it". On the contrary, he proclaims his complete inability to know God truly, without His guidance. With this he refutes any pretext that men can will, or even have the capacity, to come to God, unless God draws him first with guidance.
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Hoppean, all you are doing is making excuses for Him now. What reason is there for creation when God knows all, no matter what he creates, when it means everything is pre-destined.
You are telling me you are okay with us being nothing more then artwork. You are telling me you are okay with God making people, just to burn in hell for all of eternity, that is their destiny in fact, as I have shown you.
I can't be okay with that. I refuse intellectually to worship a God who pre-destines before the beginning of Creation, men and women to burn in hell forever.
If I can create a better world in my mind then an 'all-knowing' God could, then there is something wrong here.
I was kind of hoping there would be some kind of Ayat that could calm my mind about this.
But it just comes down to, either God knows all, and destined many of us to suffer in hell, or the God of the Quran does not exist, cannot exist.
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674 "And Abraham said to his father Do you make idols as objects of worship? Truly I see you and your people in clear error"
675 "And thus we caused Abraham to see the dominion of the heavens and the earth so that he would become of those who were certain"
676 "So when the night covered him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord". But when it descended he said " I do not love those that descend".
677 "So when he saw the moon rise, he said "This is my Lord". So when it descended, he said "If my Lord does not guide me, truly I will be among those people who are in error"
We do not see Abraham trusting in his "free will" or saying that "he/anyone can come to the truth about God, if he/anyone feels like it". On the contrary, he proclaims his complete inability to know God truly, without His guidance. With this he refutes any pretext that men can will, or even have the capacity, to come to God, unless God draws him first with guidance.
678 Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest !" - but when it went down, he exclaimed "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!
679 Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Check these Ayats - 7 172 to 7174-
GOD is reminding you what happened before this phisical creation of humans.
Peace.