The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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It's plain and simple in that the common idea of an all knowing, all powerful God, completely separate from the universe, could never exist. The idea itself does not make sense. Creation to a being such as this would be pointless, meaningless. No creation whatsoever that this being would create, could ever be satisfying, because in that beings mind, everything has already played out.
And I never said I had the right perception. I just said that the Sufi, Gnostic, and Hindu perception of God would allow this all knowing trait. Because to them, we are an essence, an actual piece of God, we are God.
You're right..
A God/Deity which is "Completely Separate From The Universe" is actually yet another legacy from paganistic mindset. Paganism rule the western world (middle east included) for many centuries and it's influence can be strongly felt up until now.In the pagan universe / way of thinking, God or Deities have 'human like' characteristic. As such they have dwelling place or a home. Thus the God(s) or deity/deities lives in the "God Realm". The name varies ranging from Assguard errgh.. I mean Asgards, Aaru, Heaven (Hoffon) etc..
That's why for them, it 'make sense' for God to 'descend' to earth, or visit earth (usually only for short stay) to perform something and then 'ascended' back to His home.
Thus the whole conception of "God totally separate from this Universe" was born...
God / Gods is 'over there' (usually above) living in 'their realm' and not here which is 'our realm'.And back in the middle ages those who dare to think the above conception is false are deemed as 'heretics' and must be put to death... voodoo voodoo voodoo
This line of thinking is ever present now.. even on this forum....
Salam / Peace
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I agree, Jafar. We look for God all the time, but always with this pagan-like perception of Him. But that idea is so unrealistic and nonsensical, it simply can't be.
Thank you for the input, I think that explains a lot as to why we constantly see God in this specific way.
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I agree, Jafar. We look for God all the time, but always with this pagan-like perception of Him. But that idea is so unrealistic and nonsensical, it simply can't be.
Thank you for the input, I think that explains a lot as to why we constantly see God in this specific way.
And it was designed 'on purpose'.
As God/Gods/Goddesses need to be 'far away' and 'out of reach' in order to entice the needs for mediator / agent on earth (read Priest) and other artifacts (read holy books, statue, holy stone etc..) or even 'holy places' which also 'mediate' the interaction between man (or woman) and God/Gods/Goddesses.Thus the notion of "God's book", "God's prophet", "God's Home", "God's stone", "God's statue" become common and make sense to them..
IF..
Everyone can reach God (as God is ever present and all-knowing etc..) then there will be no need for any mediator as mentioned above.. thus it will be a 'bad business' for the entire religion industry, and the whole religion industry will crumble down to ashes..
Thus.. they impose harsh penalty (e.g. death penalty through stoning or burning) for those who dare to think in 'unpaganistic' way of thinking.Salam / Peace
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Please explain the following, quote
It is the perception of God that I offered, that allows your Qur'an to make sense. Otherwise, everything has been destined, and can be equated to nothing more than a chain of cause and effect, a movie.
I have tried to find what perception you offered and where but could not find it?
Peace Jafar.
Quote And back in the middle ages those who dare to think the above conception is false are deemed as 'heretics' and must be put to death...
What is the true conception? Does that make God still knowing everything? Do we need a message from God? Do we need messengers? Is instinct enough?
While you are saying " conception of a separate deity is false", you have not explained your perception clearly.?
Peace.
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What is the true conception? Does that make God still knowing everything? Do we need a message from God? Do we need messengers? Is instinct enough?
Why ask me? Why ask others?
Given you can reach and ask God directly..
While you are saying " conception of a separate deity is false", you have not explained your perception clearly.?
Peace.Sometime 'truth' need to be discovered by yourselves..
Salam / Peace
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Logic, I named off three different ones that have similar perceptions.
Many Hindus believe that Brahman is the source of all, and that we are nothing but a piece of Him, not all Hindus are polytheistic, many are Monotheistic, in this sense. Some of the Gnostics believe that by obtaining Gnosis, they can unite with God, their essence that is, after the physical body dies. And the Sufi have very similar writings as well.
I have given you what you need. It doesn't take much to look these things up online. A true truth seeker does not seek the truth in just one book, in just one teaching.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Does that answer the " Predestination" question?
Does God still know the future?
Have you got your answer from the other " perception"? What is it?
That is what I was asking.
Peace.
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If we assume that we are all an essence of God, a piece of Him. That the spiritual goal of life is to return to God through purification of ourselves. Then yes, this would in a way answer the predestination questioning, but we would still need answers, as to how we, as God, know the future. And then Satan would be looked at as the Demi-Urge, or the materialistic world, that holds us back from achieving this goal. And still yet, we would need to know what we, as a piece of God, would achieve from returning to our true selves, to Heaven, to our whole self who would be God.
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And just to throw this out there. The Qur'an does refer to God as "We" quite often.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Thank you for that.
I will add some questions to yours
Who are the Angels? The animals? Other creations?
Who has sent the message? And The prophets /messengers?
Who is controlling and ruling all the dominions?
Peace,
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I would say that looking at it from a Gnostic view, it would go like this...
God is the Monad.
Angels are Aeons, emanations of God.
Satan is the Demi-Urge.
The Djinn are the Archons.
The Qur'an would be the direct word from the Monad itself, or through the Aeon Gabriel.
Heaven would be the Pleroma, the spiritual universe, the abode of God and of the totality of the divine powers and emanations.
Humans, unlike animals, I would say, through evolution, are now ready to unite with God, to add to the Pleroma, which creates and sustains the universe. I suppose you could say the meaning to creation would be to realize God, and add to the Pleroma.
A lot of this is conjecture, and if you were to read the beliefs of some Gnostic sects, it wouldn't fit right, as God of the Bible was viewed as the Demi-Urge.
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I think the key answer to the author of the question is the terminology used.
I'm talking about time Past, present and future. and also space.
If we're talking about GOD then these parameters are not included in his domain.
For GOD there is no such a thing as time, space, past present and future.
These all relate to us as a mean of thinking and making decision.
I'm not good with analogies, and many of them some times tends to miss-represent the real issue.I believe the example that we experience to a certain extent is during sleep without a conscious dream.
You have raised a good question, and there isn't a straight answer that include GOD, with time and space.
With GOD there is no before and no after..Best regards.
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I would say that looking at it from a Gnostic view, it would go like this...
God is the Monad.
Angels are Aeons, emanations of God.
Satan is the Demi-Urge.
The Djinn are the Archons.
The Qur'an would be the direct word from the Monad itself, or through the Aeon Gabriel.
Heaven would be the Pleroma, the spiritual universe, the abode of God and of the totality of the divine powers and emanations.
Humans, unlike animals, I would say, through evolution, are now ready to unite with God, to add to the Pleroma, which creates and sustains the universe. I suppose you could say the meaning to creation would be to realize God, and add to the Pleroma.
A lot of this is conjecture, and if you were to read the beliefs of some Gnostic sects, it wouldn't fit right, as God of the Bible was viewed as the Demi-Urge.Peace Bodhisvasti,
Your confusion is understandable, with all the varying definitions of God whispering to you,
you have not been able to make up your mind. Your analogies, comparisons of various religions
has not brought you certainty but doubt. There is only one religion and that is submission
according to Quran but if your journey leads you in another direction that is ok also.Peace O0
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Foralgerian, no matter how you see it, whether God is or isn't outside of time, it still doesn't explain the meaning/point of a creation that has already played out in this Gods mind. It equates creation to a movie.
Hawkninetynine, my varying defininitions of God, my anologies, and my comparisons to other religions has not brought me doubt, but made me a better truth seeker. I want the truth, I want rationality, I want explanations. If your idea of an all-knowing God can't be explained in the traditional sense He is viewed in, then He must be viewed in a whole other way.
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Hawkninetynine, my varying defininitions of God
There is only One.
Hawkninetynine, my comparisons to other religions has not brought me doubt,
lol Isn't doubt exactly what you are expressing?
Hawkninetynine, but made me a better truth seeker.
One's truth seeker is another's folly.
I want the truth, I want rationality, I want explanations.
If you want the truth about Islam then you must read the Quran
If your idea of an all-knowing God can't be explained in the traditional sense He is viewed in, then He must be viewed in a whole other way.
Who's tradition?
Peace O0
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Bodhisvasti
I think it's key issue. because your argument is essentially based on the time factor.
You Say God before created the universe..you are talking according to our time and space reference, as an observer.
It is difficult for us humans to grasp the possibility that there is no such thing as before and after..
We are talking here about a mathematical issue..
This is exactly like trying to question what was God doing before he created us.
We have to admit that God is not an easy issue to grasp and no one knows for certain whether he exists or doesn't..
because the term existence is related to our concept of creation or else.This is equivalent to ask what is the origin of the origin of life?
I understand perfectly your question and your challenge it's not philosophical, but merely mathematical.
It is similar to the concept of infinity and zero.Best regards
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion.
I (and perhaps some other here) don't have any religion, so you don't have anything to attack...
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
YES
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
YES
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
YES, suffering and happiness is just a matter of perspective..
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
YES.. from 'human' perspective it's pointless.. as human is an 'objective/goal' oriented beings..
That means God made a world full of suffering.
And happiness as well..
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil.
FALSE
When there's no evil there will be no good...Are there such thing as 'evil baby' or 'good baby'?
Nope.. babies are just babies...Are there such thing as 'evil tree' or 'good tree'?
Nope.. trees are just trees..Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Evil shall praise evil and good shall praise good..
It's your choice, but remember He also created good..
As when there's good there will also be evil, otherwise we will not know the difference between those two..It just a matter of perspective.. and choices..
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?
Don't be a Muslim, yet be a muslim which means accepting God wishes as it is...
Which in turn shall give you peace of mind.."Let Thy will be done on earth as it's in heaven"
-- JesusSalam / Peace
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It is difficult for us humans to grasp the possibility that there is no such thing as before and after..
We are talking here about a mathematical issue..Peace -- yes for more on the mathematics/physics read the works of John Dunne on precognitive dreams
An Experiment with Time (1927), The Serial Universe (1934), and others which explain time being linear is an illusion brought about by consciousness and that past, present, and future are in reality simultaneous.
We experience them sequentially in the conscious state and when in unconscious dream state, the mind is free to roam thus able to see the past, present, and future as if flipping through the pages of a book.
1714 read your book sufficient yourself the day to you reckoner
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I had the same question as you do, and I can tell you that omniscience and free will is reconcilable. Most members of organized religions believe that if they ask God for something, God may answer the prayer. The problem is that God is all-knowing by definition, so if he decided to answer a prayer, that would automatically imply that God didn't have any foresight to expect that request; and if God lacked foresight to expect the future needs of his creation, that would mean that God isn't all-knowing.
Freewill is the ability to choose for yourself. A God that is All-knowing, has no need to interfere with the evolution of his creation; and in order to provide humanity with free will, God chose not to interfere. Some would argue that the Quran says that God controls everything, that everything submits to God, so God must be involved. But because God is all-knowing, he created every conceivable law of nature, in order to lead his creation to its destiny. By not interfering, God left some wiggle room in his laws for humans to navigate through, and the personal choices made within the limits of that wiggle room is free-will.
This religious philosophy is known as Deism. This isn't another religion per se, but its a theory that describes God's role in the Universe.
I've posted an article that addresses the philosophical "problem of evil" argument, where I go into this in a little more detail, but I encourage you to read a little about deism, as opposed to theism.
To see my problem of evil blog post go to http//www.stirringmind.com/blog/addressing-the-problem-of-evil/
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I had the same question as you do, and I can tell you that omniscience and free will is reconcilable. Most members of organized religions believe that if they ask God for something, God may answer the prayer. The problem is that God is all-knowing by definition, so if he decided to answer a prayer, that would automatically imply that God didn't have any foresight to expect that request; and if God lacked foresight to expect the future needs of his creation, that would mean that God isn't all-knowing.
Freewill is the ability to choose for yourself. A God that is All-knowing, has no need to interfere with the evolution of his creation; and in order to provide humanity with free will, God chose not to interfere. Some would argue that the Quran says that God controls everything, that everything submits to God, so God must be involved. But because God is all-knowing, he created every conceivable law of nature, in order to lead his creation to its destiny. By not interfering, God left some wiggle room in his laws for humans to navigate through, and the personal choices made within the limits of that wiggle room is free-will.
This religious philosophy is known as Deism. This isn't another religion per se, but its a theory that describes God's role in the Universe.
I've posted an article that addresses the philosophical "problem of evil" argument, where I go into this in a little more detail, but I encourage you to read a little about deism, as opposed to theism.
To see my problem of evil blog post go to http//www.stirringmind.com/blog/addressing-the-problem-of-evil/
I agree with your points and just feel I want to clarify something if you speak of Deism, we have a totally different ball-game. There is no punishment or reward. There is no intervention on a personal and daily basis. There is no sin or consequence of anything.
In Islam however, we have the principle of a created human with a purpose who can choose to do as told or refuse - at his own peril.
Also, I don't think that "free will" exists in reality. It is an artificial term, invented by religions to provide a theoretical cop-out.
If there is a personal god with reward and punishment and that god has the attribute all-knowing we have precluded free will.
Example
I pick up a pair of sunglasses and try them on. I like them and they fulfill my requirements.I now have a choice
pay for them and keep them on - or - keep them on and walk away without paying. The latter choice will be punished. So far so good.Did god know that I would pay for them? In that case, if I pay I had a choice to not pay, but I took the option of paying and god was right and everybody is happy. But what if I don't pay? God will know this also and punish me.
What happens if god knows I will not pay and will get ready to punish me and I change my mind and pay?
If god only knew I will not pay, I have what you call "free will" as I could do as I pleased and pay, without anyone knowing about it. And I will get punished because god only knew I did not pay. He is not all-knowing.
If god did know from the beginning I would change my mind he knows everything and is all-knowing, but I don't have free will. Or will I still be punished?