The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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How come no one bothered to check out this link mentioned previously?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8719.msg28485#msg28485It's talking about the system we have. The outcomes are the things predetermined, but our lives are not. Our choices are free, but God knows very well which direction leads to whichever path.
This topic has been covered on this site before. Please read both of these articles.
http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice
http//www.free-minds.org/trustAfter reading the things in these three links, if you still doubt or have questions, you need to stop asking people on this forum for the answer. We simply do not have the power to guide you. If you are genuinely searching for the truth, you will get it. But if you are asking in order to cement whatever belief you currently have, then you'll just be satisfied with whatever belief that is. It really, and truly, is up to you. But you have to at least try believing that and testing that theory for yourself rather than just saying "what if" and getting pissed at everyone else's comments that don't agree with yours, or don't provide the miracle explanation you're looking for. Give yourself time to think, study, analyze. Don't just criticize and pout. Ask God for yourself. Don't blow Him off and then blame Him for your shortcomings.
Peace.
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salam,
Q223 And yet among men there are such as dispute about Allah, without knowledge,....
Q228 And yet, among men there is many a one that argues about God without having any knowledge , without any guidance, and without any light-giving revelation.
I think our knowledge of God is very limited by which God wants us to know Him and not
by what we want to know. -
Reading the articles linked above was far too involved and consisted in a huge amount of text without any structure or logics, so I abandoned it. Without wanting to sound arrogant there is a much easier way of looking at the problem.
I liked the way that "neo" explained it using quantum states, but why not use an everyday example?Imagine the following scenario I go to the sports shop to buy running shoes, I can choose between the ones with a red stripe or with a blue stripe.
I choose the ones with a red stripe.
My wife joins me in the shop and tells me the blue striped ones look better.
I change my mind and take the ones with the blue stripe.What just happened? I changed my mind. I decided on something and then went back and took a different decision.
How does this relate to omniscience? Well, if a super-natural entity and creator would know what will happen, would that creator know I will eventually take the shoes with the blue stripe? If it's omniscient, yes, of course.
But if that omniscient creator god knows that I will take the running shoes with the blue stripe, can I defy my wife's input and buy the shoes with the red stripe anyway?
Yes I have free will, but god is not omniscient.
No god is omniscient, but I don't have free will. -
salam,
The problem is that you've equate omniscient with foreknowledge/or predestined.
Foreknowledge/predestined indicate that God has a hand in deciding the outcome therefore
no free will.
The word Alim/Alimun translated to knowledge/aware/know among others.
Not Foreknowledge/or predestined. -
salam,
The problem is that you've equate omniscient with foreknowledge/or predestined.
Foreknowledge/predestined indicate that God has a hand in deciding the outcome therefore
no free will.
The word Alim/Alimun translated to knowledge/aware/know among others.
Not Foreknowledge/or predestined.Does that mean that god is not aware of the future and the knowledge stops with our present here on Earth?
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Does that mean that god is not aware of the future and the knowledge stops with our present here on Earth?
Of course He knows everything including the future. That's why He's God.
However when we try to understand how God acquired those knowledge then we come up with the phrases like "Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" inorder to make sense to our reasoning.In another word, we created an environment, a human environment and we put God in that environment and we expect God to conform to that environment.
God operates from a different dimension then we human. God is not bound by what He creates.
God is free of His creation. One of the creation of God is, Time. Time does not apply to the realm
of the Divine. Therefore God's dimension is timeless.Where else human understand their acts based on the dimension of time. It is a linear though process.
Hence we have the Past, Present and Future. Human beings know nothing if time is not an included factor.
"Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" are time based phrases therefore it does not apply in God's dimension. -
Of course He knows everything including the future. That's why He's God.
However when we try to understand how God acquired those knowledge then we come up with the phrases like "Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" inorder to make sense to our reasoning.In another word, we created an environment, a human environment and we put God in that environment and we expect God to conform to that environment.
God operates from a different dimension then we human. God is not bound by what He creates. God is free of His creation. One of the creation of God is, Time. Time does not apply to the realm of the Divine. Therefore God's dimension is timeless.
Where else human understand their acts based on the dimension of time. It is a linear though process. Hence we have the Past, Present and Future. Human beings know nothing if time is not an included factor.
"Foreknowledge" and "Predestination" are time based phrases therefore it does not apply in God's dimension.If I apply your opinion to my analogy, it means that this omniscience being knew in advance I was going to change my mind. That means there is no free will.
Also, you make some huge assertions regarding the attributes of your god. How do you know "God operates from a different dimension then we human"?
How do you know "God is not bound by what He creates"?
How do you know "God is free of His creation"?
How do you know "One of the creation of God is Time"?
How do you know "Time does not apply to the realm of the Divine"?
What does all this mean? How can a divine being exist and suddenly feel the urge to create angels, humans and at least one Universe and do this while in a different dimension and continuum? -
I had no idea this would be up so long. I skimmed through a lot of what has been said so far. And there seems to be one very common answer, God is outside of time. The challenge still remains unchallenged though, even if you answer with that. Think about it...
God knows all. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. On our planet, in our universe, and in this dimension. This can't be neglected when thinking about creation.
So God is outside of our dimension, outside of time. That still doesn't account for the point of creation. I mean, put yourself in Gods shoes...
There is nothing you can create that you don't already know the outcome of. So why create anything at all, when everything has basically already been created, and played out in your mind?
Better yet, why create this particular version of our universe, full of so much suffering? Mortality, rape, murder, theft, exploitation, and much more. This makes no sense, when you already know the outcome of allowing such things in the universe.
Why not create a universe where we are all already in tune to God. Where we live forever. Where the word disease doesn't even exist, simply because there is none. Where children aren't being raped and sold off to be sex slaves. Where murder is unknown, because no one can die, or even think of it.
If you were in Gods shoes, and created such a horrible universe, would that not make you evil? The answer is a blunt, yes. It would. So why don't you put the God of the Quran in that place of evil, when he did just that. Created evil, when he did not have to. There is no test, there can't be. God already knows everything that will happen, before it has happened. God already knows who passes, and who fails. Why? Because God made it so, predestined it so. It must be predestination, because God knew all of this, and what is to come, would happen, before he even began creation. God knew before making Iblis, that he would not bow to man, and cause so much chaos.
If we had the power that God is assumed to have in the Quran, and created this universe by choice, we would call ourselves evil. Why don't we treat Allah the same?
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Welcome back.
Someone will also be saying "welcome back" to you on Resurrection day.
Anyway, what I am saying ,it will stay unchallenged until the day of judgement, Why?
Because if all was clear, the test /this life will be over! God and the Angels would come down and all will be revealed!
The best we can do now is believe God and His message and trust that He knows what He is doing /has done.
Peace.
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
I just had to write that I appreciate very much your post and the quotation from the Qur'an!
It is amazing how many times we can read the Qur'an and it is always fresh and new, and we always find something to awake our attention previously somehow duly unnoticed.
As someone once said, the Qur'an is always updated, it is we who need constant updatingAnd, you know @hawkninetynine, I like your signature phrase very much!
Best regards.
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion. Only trying to truly understand. One thing has kept me from believing in god all these years. And I bring it to you as a challenge, not to end your faith, but to renew my own. Please help me in this.
According to the Quran. God knows all. The past, present, and future, everything. It is clear. There is no getting out of it.
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
To elaborate, take a piece of paper, and put it on your desk. Now you are about to scratch a line onto the paper with a pencil. Wherever you scratch, that is the Creation. Each possible line you could make is a different Creation. You know what each Creation would be, everything that happens in it. God just happened to make a scratch, say, on the rim of the upper right corner, making the Universe as we know it today, everything that happened in the past, that is happening now, and that will happen, God knows of.
That means God made a world full of suffering. God made Hell, knowing beforehand, that if he made that certain scratch, those people that deserve it, were already going to get it. That means before God made Lucifer, he knew that he would rebel, and tempt us. That means Creation is a movie directed by God, a movie that is the same as he knew it would be, full of suffering, and an eternity of Hell for those who would deserve it, but they only deserve it, because God determined it so by making the world as it is. If he had scratched just a little different on that piece of paper, that person instead of choosing to be a believer and a good person, would have been an unbeliever and a bad person, thereby making their destiny Hell, a place where you are burned forever, and your drink is boiling water.
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil. Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?Peace,
Your challenge is easily met.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
God does what he wants to do, you don't have to understand, or like or condon what he does
or has done or will do. You can wring you hands, cry foul, get upset, pout, sulk, what we do, think
cannot change what God has decreed, get used to it. Many people question God but are afraid to question
certain humans! This is not your creation! You may not like the rules but so what. Two things we can do is ask God for mercy and guidance.He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.
He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism is in the garden of eden
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
This has very little to do with what we are talking about. Or at least, doesn't answer a thing. Why is God not asked anything but others can be? He is just as visible as the rest.
And right, so we're dealt out a hand, and it's up to us to choose how we play it. Well, God still knows beforehand, before dealing out that hand, exactly how we will play it out anyways. So what's the point, to Him? By the way, dealers who fix games often have their hands broken.
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Peace,
Your challenge is easily met.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
God does what he wants to do, you don't have to understand, or like or condon what he does
or has done or will do. You can wring you hands, cry foul, get upset, pout, sulk, what we do, think
cannot change what God has decreed, get used to it. Many people question God but are afraid to question
certain humans! This is not your creation! You may not like the rules but so what. Two things we can do is ask God for mercy and guidance.He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.
He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism is in the garden of eden
The mercy and guidance that God already knew who, when, and where He would give it, before the moment of creation even began? Even your post just then, was already known to God, before the universe began.
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This has very little to do with what we are talking about. Or at least, doesn't answer a thing. Why is God not asked anything but others can be? He is just as visible as the rest.
And right, so we're dealt out a hand, and it's up to us to choose how we play it. Well, God still knows beforehand, before dealing out that hand, exactly how we will play it out anyways. So what's the point, to Him? By the way, dealers who fix games often have their hands broken.
It's a good question you raise.
The nuance is that when God says 'he shall not be questioned', you can take it in two ways. One way you'd think "This is MY will and you better be quiet about it". But this is erroneous and not at all what is being said in that verse.
Rather, God is simply something that there is no way to question just as water can't be anything other than wet. You can question 1+1 = 2 all you like but it's very nature cannot be changed. So you have to yield to the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. One of God's names is Al-Haqq i.e. the absolute clear truth. God is the irresistible, that is to say that nothing at all can override it or even try to.
Likewise, do you ask why a square is a square and try to change it into a 3 sided square? Rather you accept inherently that squareness entails four corners and you live your life in submission to this truth. The truth has no reason to not be submitted to because it inherently is the only way that reality could ever be.
As for the first interpretation of 'questioning', God states that on judgement day we will be told all the answers in detail (5105). The point is that each and every single one of our questions will have an answer, no matter how in-depth and complex and intricate they are. The human imagination is always encompassed by the knowledge of God. Human knowledge is a subset of God's knowledge always. And also that these answers will be irresistibly true just as '2' is the irresistible answer to '1+1 = ?".
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It's a good question you raise.
The nuance is that when God says 'he shall not be questioned', you can take it in two ways. One way you'd think "This is MY will and you better be quiet about it". But this is erroneous and not at all what is being said in that verse.
Rather, God is simply something that there is no way to question just as water can't be anything other than wet. You can question 1+1 = 2 all you like but it's very nature cannot be changed. So you have to yield to the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. One of God's names is Al-Haqq i.e. the absolute clear truth. God is the irresistible, that is to say that nothing at all can override it or even try to.
Likewise, do you ask why a square is a square and try to change it into a 3 sided square? Rather you accept inherently that squareness entails four corners and you live your life in submission to this truth. The truth has no reason to not be submitted to because it inherently is the only way that reality could ever be.
As for the first interpretation of 'questioning', God states that on judgement day we will be told all the answers in detail (5105). The point is that each and every single one of our questions will have an answer, no matter how in-depth and complex and intricate they are. The human imagination is always encompassed by the knowledge of God. Human knowledge is a subset of God's knowledge always. And also that these answers will be irresistibly true just as '2' is the irresistible answer to '1+1 = ?".
The entire point of this whole thread is to discover the truth. To rationally conclude a reason behind Gods omniscience. And you are wrong, the Quranic ideal of God is not the only way it could ever be, inherently. Have you researched the many other ideas of other Gods? For example, Brahman in Hinduism makes much more sense then the God of the Quran. Brahman is simply the source of everything, reality itself, and we are all a piece of that source, we are God. So it is not inherently the truth, it is simply your perception of the truth, a perception that is not meeting rationality.
Can you answer what the point of creation is to the Quranic God? He knew before creation, all that would take place, who would and would not be worthy of hell. What is the point to God, not to us, to God, for creating what could be, to Him, equated to a movie he has already watched a thousand times, this is just play number one thousand and one.
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There is no difference between 'Brahman' and 'God'. I have been practicing zen for a few years and it is absolutely 100% equivalent to islam at its heart because the path of light is a single path. Keep in mind you are perhaps coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't studied and applied in depth the quran over several years.
Thus you cannot say this "the Quranic ideal of God is not the only way it could ever be, inherently" as you are simply just not informed as to what the quran genuinely says. Your perception at the moment is still too naive of the sheer depth of the book, and don't think I am talking down to you whatsoever either. We all began from this state.
Forget this or that ideal about God and focus. The reality in front of you, is it going to go away? The air in front of you, the floor underneath you, the bricks at your sides. Will shouting, screaming and debating make them go away and dissipate you back into the void from whence you came? It certainly won't. Reality is irresistible. To offer resistance to it is futile, a waste of energy altogether. Accepting that it is this way alone and none else, then look within yourself, meditate, and see what way it actually is.
You might like this link, it is a very good and quick read and it has nothing to do with the quran itisnotreal.com/awareness-of-the-void.html
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Why are you posting in a thread made to discuss the idea of God presented in the Quran if you are not going to discuss it. I know completely what you are saying, but this thread was made with the intention to discuss the rationality behind the Quranic God knowing all, past, present, and future, and what it could mean. You are not putting in anything as far as the idea being discussed.
And zen is not one hundred percent equal to Islam, because there is no self, no actual soul, in Zen, in Buddhism period. It is a stream of conciousness that continues in Buddhism, and the goal is to reach Nirvana, break free from Rebirth, and no longer be reborn. There is no god in Buddhism that is all knowing, that created the universe, knowing all that would happen therein before the actual creation, and then condemning those folks who were created to be such, to eternity in fire.
If you are not going to discuss the issue at hand, then please don't try to change the discussion.
I am in no way resisting reality, it's anyone who refuses to discuss what they believe, to argue for what they believe, that resists reality. This post took me maybe four minutest to finish, and i'm enjoying a TV show, life in general, all the while discussing this. So what reality am I resisting?
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Actually zen is a mindset. Do not confuse the religion around zen with zen itself. Zen is simply just sitting, that's all. No need to read deep storylines into it though they of course will come with the practice.
Likewise the methodology of buddhism is not the same thing as the religion of buddhism. Buddha's teachings did not ask people to construct gold statues of him and bow to it. All of these things such as "no self", "no actual soul", "stream of consciousness", "Nirvana", "rebirth", etc are NOT zen and they will never be. Zen is free of all concepts altogether. A teacher might say to one student, "there is no self" then turn around and say to his next student "there is a self", based on how he feels the student is most likely to reach realisation. These koans are only there to break the mind, to break the questioner so as to see the Clear Light of the void. Once you know the clear light, all other truths are reflected from within yourself.
Regardless, the idea that God knows everything before it happens is false, refer to this verse
And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.
Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves by no means would We do (it).
Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;This process of falsehood vanishing and truth becoming reified is the reason for the universe. As it evolves and increases in entropy, the number of possible configurations of matter naturally increases. All of the things you see in front of you now could not even have possibly existed closer to the Big Bang.
So we can see that over time, new and more complex things arise out of simpler ones infinitely dense energy becomes photons and hydrogen, then hydrogen fuses into complex elements, etc. The point is that creation happens in real time. It's as if God is using a brute force algorithm to answer the question posed in 2118. If God had the knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end after it had happened; but before it even created the universe, then the creation would be pointless, a distraction or a play. And this is precisely what these verses reject.
It is incorrect to say God is not omniscient but it is not correct whatsoever to say things are predestined either, and as you say, this would totally void the purpose of a trial.
Peace
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God is doing everything!
We have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.