The Challenge Yet To Be Met

Hoppean

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

How does God know infallibly?

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

I assume you mean "wrongly" translated? If so, then...

It is not, see Lane's entry; it is synoymous with "kha lam qaf" (to create/to make).
What would your translation of "tha ra alif" be?

mmkhan

How does God know infallibly?

Can you please elaborate your question more?

I assume you mean "wrongly" translated? If so, then...

It is not, see Lane's entry; it is synoymous with "kha lam qaf" (to create/to make).
What would your translation of "tha ra alif" be?

Yes, true brother, I mean wrongly translated not quoted, sorry for that.

I still believe strongly that there are no synonyms in AlQuraan. This Lane and other old books has been written to misguide I think.

"thara-a" means to "left".

7179
7179 And We have certainly left for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

"Left for Hell" does not mean "Created for Hell'. People wanted to go that way as per the detail given further in this aayat, so Allah left them to go that way. Simple as that.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Bender

Bender. Next time please post an english translation of any verses you wish to use. No offense, but I feel as if you wasted my time on purpose with those verses. Because they are just more propaganda being pushed out, none of those really addresses God knowing everything. I am trying to find the truth. I want a clear cut answer, preferably from the Quran. All I want, is a logical and rational explanation for the verses saying he knows everything. Because as I have shown you, for that to be, would mean that billions were destined for Hell, eternal suffering, for God knew before making this universe, all who would go there, because he made the universe just so.

For future reference to anyone who replies to this post. Do not post verses that have nothing to do with this conundrum. Just answer the issue directly. Please, and thank you in advance.

"229 It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned
to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge
of all things."

That is just one verse of many, which say that God has "knowledge of all things".

To have knowledge of all things, this would mean, all things. The past, present, and future, and everything in it.

Do you deny that God knows everything? Or does he only know the past and present, all that is in it, and not the future?

Why don't you try answering the questions above. They are clear cut yes or no questions. You can't get around it.

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

I am sorry for wasting your time.
Good luck with your research, inshaAllah soon you will find your answer.

Salaam,
Bender

Muddy

Salaam Brother,
You have a very literal linear mind and this causes you much difficulty.
You do question which is good.
like pouring water in to a vessel the water takes on the shape of that vessel.
Just so your logic construction gives a shape to the created and the almighty creator.

Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?
Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?
Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?

The Prophet (PBUH) gave us a path to follow, to let go, to surrender our words our logic our systems our con-straining vessels.
We had to caste out (Jihad) not just sin but attachment to all things except the Almighty and by so doing surrender to his will (Muslim)

This path of absolute surrendering to the will of the Almighty is called Islam.
To see what lies on this path one must walk it, not talk about, not debate, not make films about but really walk it!
One must smash apart ones constraing vessel, smash apart ones logic and smash apart ones attachment to limited dualistic logic to get a glimpse of the beloved or to comprehend such questions.

As it is at the moment you will never receive a satisfactory answer! No matter where you look!
Your Ideas and comprehension have taken on the shape of the vessel you transport them in, your words and logic.

Faithful-Jinn

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

I am sorry for wasting your time.
Good luck with your research, inshaAllah soon you will find your answer.

Salaam,
Bender

You're not going to answer his questions? ignore

Anyway the idea that God knows only past and present is ridiculous because that would mean God only experiences past and present.

This would mean that like human beings God is bound by time. We know only what we've already experienced and what we currently are experiencing.

The Abrahamic concept of God does not fit into this idea. God cannot experience time like a human being and still maintain all His attributes.

Bodhisvasti

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Knowing all is not different then predestination. How do you figure that logic?

God knew before making Satan, that he would rebel against him, and cause much suffering for mankind. So why make him?

God knew that he would make Muhammad his messenger, before the moment of the universes very creation. Hence, predestination.

God knew everything that would happen in His creation, before he created, because he would create in 'that way'.

Like I had said before, even this entire thread of this forum was known to God, before creation. I was predestined to start this thread, because this is how God created the universe, knowing all beforehand, that would happen. God did not have to make me, knowing before the very moment of creation, all that I would do. Instead, God could have made me as one of you, defending the irrational idea of an all-knowing God. He simply had to create the universe in a slighty different way.

Satan had no free will, if God had made him, knowing before making him, that he would rebel against his later creation.

Bodhisvasti

Salaam Brother,
You have a very literal linear mind and this causes you much difficulty.
You do question which is good.
like pouring water in to a vessel the water takes on the shape of that vessel.
Just so your logic construction gives a shape to the created and the almighty creator.

Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?
Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?
Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?

The Prophet (PBUH) gave us a path to follow, to let go, to surrender our words our logic our systems our con-straining vessels.
We had to caste out (Jihad) not just sin but attachment to all things except the Almighty and by so doing surrender to his will (Muslim)

This path of absolute surrendering to the will of the Almighty is called Islam.
To see what lies on this path one must walk it, not talk about, not debate, not make films about but really walk it!
One must smash apart ones constraing vessel, smash apart ones logic and smash apart ones attachment to limited dualistic logic to get a glimpse of the beloved or to comprehend such questions.

As it is at the moment you will never receive a satisfactory answer! No matter where you look!
Your Ideas and comprehension have taken on the shape of the vessel you transport them in, your words and logic.

"Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?" Yes. We are obviously capable, right now, of figuring out this conundrum through todays language. It's really just that no one seems to be able to rationalise this idea of an all-knowing God without believing in predestination entirely.

"Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?" Uhm. Yes? That is what we are doing right now. Isn't it?

"Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?" Yes. It just may take a very long time. But yes, logically, we can use our words to do all of these things.

And I agree. I really don't think I will recieve a satisfactory answer from you, no offense, because you did not help in this topic at all whatsoever.

It is actually you, who refuses to talk about this, because you know such a thing can't be rationalised, yet. At least i'd like to think there is a God, and an Afterlife. But for Him to be all-knowing, would mean our creation is indeed, a movie.

Please don't respond with the typical propaganda that I have gotten from so many that I have asked this question to. Either you know, you don't know, or you just can't believe other then what you have been told, because it may destroy your hope for an eternity after death.

Bodhisvasti

You're not going to answer his questions? ignore

Anyway the idea that God knows only past and present is ridiculous because that would mean God only experiences past and present.

This would mean that like human beings God is bound by time. We know only what we've already experienced and what we currently are experiencing.

The Abrahamic concept of God does not fit into this idea. God cannot experience time like a human being and still maintain all His attributes.

Exactly. But this same concept also makes our entire creation predestined, simply because god knew if he created in this way, all of this would happen, when he very well could have created that way, knowing all of that would happen.

Therefore making the Abrahamic concept of God, either very evil, or very wrong.

Bodhisvasti

By the way. Before any more future responses...

Keep in mind that before creation...

God knew you would respond that way.

God knew everything that has happened in your life thus far, would happen.

Etc, etc, etc.

Faithful-Jinn

Exactly. But this same concept also makes our entire creation predestined, simply because god knew if he created in this way, all of this would happen, when he very well could have created that way, knowing all of that would happen.

Therefore making the Abrahamic concept of God, either very evil, or very wrong.

I agree. I recently rejected the divinity of the Qur'an and the premise of the Abrahamic God. There are simply too many holes in the theology for me to logically believe. I can simply no longer accept the idea of the Abrahamic God as real.

If God does exist He is an ineffective communicator, a petty, violent, and misogynistic being, and he definitely isn't a universal God as he never seemed to care about the salvation or well being of the enemy peoples he ordered his prophets to slaughter man woman and child.

good_logic

Peace Bodhisvasti.

I am letting you know this is my last post in this topic.

I agree with you GOD knew this. ( unless GOD knows more, ie I might post another one in the future even though I have decided this is the last one.)

I wish you best of luck for your search for answers.

Peace.

Muddy

Bodhisvasti,

I would bet money (if I bet ) that you have been on a few different forums searching this way.

I can tell from your answers that you have had a fairly limited education, I would bet it is only recently that you attained your G.E.D.
You answer rhetorical questions with the confidence of a professor but with the application of a child.

You have dipped your tow in the water of a few different belief systems.

You can never expect a different outcome if you continue to do things the same way (this is a definition of madness)
Yet you continue to approach this subject (and one would guess the last or next subject) with the same juvenile logic and mind set.

With respect you have not understood my posts or others and I am not even sure you can understand them.

I have seen this a hundred times!
I will not post to you again.
Maybe I will see you in your next forum in your next guise as a Atheist communist, buddhist or Vedantist.

brickwall

Bender

You're not going to answer his questions? ignore

Salaam,

No, I don't like the way he discuss.
He doesn't want to discuss but he wants to dictate.
He really thinks that he has come up with something genius, but it's nothing but a standard refuting concept of atheists.

Salaam,
Bender

mmkhan

Knowing all is not different then predestination. How do you figure that logic?

God knew before making Satan, that he would rebel against him, and cause much suffering for mankind. So why make him?

You mean, if a teacher know about two of his students going to fail this year in examination, does that mean, while correcting their papers, this teacher will fail them even if they write their exam in better way?

If you are referring Satan to Iblis, then he was not created separately. And he asked Allah to give him time until the last hour, his prayers are accepted , so how Allah is responsible. Even if you ask Allah to make you rich so that you can do all bad things, etc., your prayers will also be accepted, but later you will have to face its result as Iblis is going to face also about his deeds.

God knew that he would make Muhammad his messenger, before the moment of the universes very creation. Hence, predestination.

hypno Where did you get this idea?

God knew everything that would happen in His creation, before he created, because he would create in 'that way'.

Wrong! Nothing is created in ANY WAY.

Every body was created the same way and was given an absolute free will. We are the one who decides and chose what we like as Iblis does.

Like I had said before, even this entire thread of this forum was known to God, before creation. I was predestined to start this thread, because this is how God created the universe, knowing all beforehand, that would happen. God did not have to make me, knowing before the very moment of creation, all that I would do. Instead, God could have made me as one of you, defending the irrational idea of an all-knowing God. He simply had to create the universe in a slighty different way.

Again knowing is different than predestining.

Satan had no free will, if God had made him, knowing before making him, that he would rebel against his later creation.

Can bring up any aayat on your claim? Please!

711
711 And We have certainly created you, and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

712
712 said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

Is this not a free will?

mmKhan

amin

Bodhi,

Does God know everything, past, present, and future, being that there is nothing at all hidden from God? (Yes or No) Yes.

Yes, He knows the result/end. Imagine each one of our life to be a program written by GOD and given to us and we are just operators, we knew too little, our knowledge is limited, but the creator of the program(GOD) knows everything it does, at the end of our operation/life process God decides whether to reward you or penalize you based on our performance.

If yes. Then did God not know before Creation, who would, and would not, go to Heaven or Hell? (Yes or No) Yes.

No, God gave us the free will to operate, here each one of us do not receive the same program (environment/surrounding) to operate.
Its our performance that decides our result.

Right, wrong, evil , good, rules and logic etc... part of the creation, applicable only for us, and not for the creator, he created everything and he is above all, its He who decides on our performance and no one else, not any religious leaders or prophets, because he only created us and he only knows everything. Prophets just were guided ones, one who brought us this simple message about GOD and guided their community with some truths.

If GOD predetermines the result of HELL and Heaven, then there is no point in life the test.

Faithful-Jinn

Bodhi,
Yes, He knows the result/end. Imagine each one of our life to be a program written by GOD and given to us and we are just operators, we knew too little, our knowledge is limited, but the creator of the program(GOD) knows everything it does, at the end of our operation/life process God decides whether to reward you or penalize you based on our performance.

No, God gave us the free will to operate, here each one of us do not receive the same program (environment/surrounding) to operate.
Its our performance that decides our result.

Right, wrong, evil , good, rules and logic etc... part of the creation, applicable only for us, and not for the creator, he created everything and he is above all, its He who decides on our performance and no one else, not any religious leaders or prophets, because he only created us and he only knows everything. Prophets just were guided ones, one who brought us this simple message about GOD and guided their community with some truths.

If GOD predetermines the result of HELL and Heaven, then there is no point in life the test.

If God is not omniscient then God is not an all-knowing God. If God is omniscient then there are many flaws in His plan that I will not accept.

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).(817)

Here I have a verse that suggests predestination. It is not Muhammad and the believers who slayed their enemies, but they were guided by Allah's hand.

Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).(7179)

Allah made many men and Jinn specifically for hell.

"He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful."
S. 5922

Say Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us He is our protector and on Allah let the Believers put their trust. S. 951

Nothing happens to us outside of Allah's decree!

And with Him are the keys of the unseen treasures-- none knows them but He; and He knows what is in the land and the sea, and there falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the earth, nor anything green nor dry but (it is all) in a clear book. S. 659

Not a single leaf falls in the earth that He doesn't know about and it is in a clear book. He already has all of reality written down in a clear book! How can you dispute this verse?!

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. S. 488

The Qur'an says that Allah causes people to err! More clear verses!

Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; Those whom He wills to leave straying, - he makes their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus does Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe. S. 6125

You cannot even find Islam UNLESS Allah opens your breast to it. If He wills you to remain straying then he closes your heart to Islam.

In truth thy Lord destroyed not the townships tyrannously while their folk were doing right. And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing, Save him on whom thy Lord hath mercy; and for that He did create them. And the Word of thy Lord hath been fulfilled Verily I shall fill hell with the jinn and mankind together. S. 11117-119 \

Read this verse carefully. God could have created one believing nation but He doesn't want us all to believe. "Save on him whom thy Lord hath mercy; and for that He did create them." He created some people to receive his mercy and he created some for hell! Clear verses.

Allah leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever he will. S. 144

Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allahs reminder. Such is Allahs guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. S. 3923

More clear verses. Allah guides who He wants to guide and He sends astray who He wills.

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allahs permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. S. 1099-100

Allah could have made everyone believers but that is not His plan. It is NOT for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission. How much more clear can it get?

This is an admonition Whosoever will, let him take a (straight) Path to his Lord. But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom. S. 7629-30

Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight. And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation. S. 8128-29

Once again it is Allah who guides all people. You will not take a path to the Lord except if He wills it. Written in the Qur'an clearly.

It is clear from the Qur'an that Allah is All-Knowing and that Allah has predestined every soul. Since Allah is also All-Powerful I have to question some of His motives.

Muddy

Faithful Jinn, "It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth"

You deduce "Here I have a verse that suggests predestination. It is not Muhammad and the believers who slayed their enemies, but they were guided by Allah's hand"

I disagree with such a simple and literal conclusion (and one that is at odds with the Holy book in general)

I think it is more appropriately interpreted within the context of a 'Muslim' struggle when those struggling have surrendered totally to God they are no longer mere men but instruments through which God's will is manifest.

The one who is has cast out, ignorance, pride, covetousness etc etc has nothing to hold to nothing to own nothing which is not of God! This is why he returns to The Eternal. So it is for the prophets and the true Muslim, they are the greatest of creation. This world has nothing for them, all they have is what is in the Eternal. In my humble opinion, this dhikr of Jonah in the whale illuminates this

?There is no god but You! Praise be to You! Verily I was from amongst the transgressors.?

He begins with negating falsehood, which is the way of the people of la ilaha illa?Allah, which then goes on to affirm tawhid, then after acknowledging His Oneness, he praises Him in the best of ways. Then finally he lifts His rank further by diminishing his own, he has come to the knowledge that in His presence he is nothing. Such is the way of the people of fana? or annihilation. They have destroyed their nafs and been reborn anew. They become the living embodiment of the divine phrase

??My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask something of Me, I would surely give it to him. Were he to seek refuge in Me, I would surely grant him it. Nor do I hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take back the believer?s soul, for he hates death and I hate to hurt him.?

Allah (SWT) gives further proof for this with regard to the Prophet (SAWS) when he says

?It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah?s in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).? (817)

As Maulana Rumi tells us, when one is completed subjugated by Divine Power, he is like the phoenix rising from the ashes. Gone is the way of old for him. Now he is the ?Abid of Allah, completely reliant on Him, every waking moment is in remembrance of Him. He is the embodiment of tawakkul (?al-mutawakil?).

So at this point all actions and being are a manifestation of God. The trials are those that like the trials of Jona burn away the afflictions of sin (attachment) leaving the only Gods will!

Faithful-Jinn