New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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The $100 USD challenge
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
If you can find an article (written in English) that can provide a Quran-based answer that explains the above highlighted verses please share it here. If I think the attempt is reasonable you will be rewarded with $100. Or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case.
Increased to $200. Please search all the Quran based islam writers (in English) and find me an article, thanks.
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//Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).//What does it mean or convey to the reader?
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//Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).//==================================
Salamun Alaykum,
I know that this thread has been long ago, but I hope still valid to discuss about this interesting subject.
So let me express my understanding about "al masjidi al harami".
All words of "al masjid" in Al Quran means the land instead of "place of sujud".
All words of “al harami” in Al Quran means treaty or covenant.
To understand about the words of “al masjidi al harami”, we should know that all messengers was came from descendant of Noah, which is also descendant of Adam, and the people to whom the messengers were sent to is the descendant of the people of ark.
God saved Noah and the people of Ark to THE BLESSED LAND, and from them consecutively God sent messengers and annihilated the wicked people.
Among the messengers after Noah, God choose Moses (2039-41) and his people who night travel with him, and later was called as “israel” (247, 2122), for taking THE COVENANT from them for the purpose that had been decreed, after God had annihilated previous generations.
2843 We gave Moses the Book, after We had annihilated the earlier generations as "eye opener" for the people, as guidance and mercy that they may take heed.
That is why God made Moses for Himself (2041), and Moses is the most messenger mentioned in Al Quran. He is the only messenger who God speak directly (7144).
God delivered His commandment to “israel” that He wanted to send down a light thru “gentile prophet”. Those who follow the light that was sent down with him will be the successful ones (7156-157).
So, before “the gentile prophet” came with the light (Al Quran), God has prepared the best scenario for the world by involving multi generations.
“Israel” is the representation of the man kind for God took the covenant before sending down Al Quran, and God gave them Torah thru Moses. After them, “bani israel” who spiritual descendant of “israel”, inherit Torah and bound with the covenant that taken by “israel”, and God send to them messengers and scriptures in order for them familiar with God Revelations, just like they recognize their own children (2146).
God blessed “bani Israel” more than anyone in the world as they will be the witness for the coming of “the gentile prophet”.
Therefore, 171 is talking about Moses and not Muhammad.
People of Moses who night travel with him from “al masjidi al harami” to “al masjidi al aqsha”, means that they travel from “the blessed land” (ex the land of people of ark and Noah) to the far land, for taken the covenant.
At the time of Muhammad, the blessed land had became many towns, and the inhabitant of the towns were ordered to be the part of “al masjidi al harami”, as they were bound with the covenant (2149-150).
Unfortunately, at the time of Muhammad, many of “bani Israel” broke their covenant and they denied Muhammad and Al Quran, even they were divided into Jewish and Christian, except a few of them (3113).
Therefore, the meaning of “al masjidi al harami” is the blessed land who the inhabitant was bound with the covenant at the time of Muhammad.
“bani Israel” is the descendant of the people of Ark (173), so for me, “al masjidi al harami” in Al Quran is just a code for the blessed land (ex people of the ark and Noah), in order for us to know that the land where Muhammad lived was the same land with other messengers.
Kind Regards,
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El-mesjid-ul-Haraam is what so-called democratic societies have today as the Parliament, the Body to decide what is forbidden, ie. to bring the Law. For Muslims (submitters to Him) the Law is according to His Guidance. Since the Qur'an, it should be for humanity, as kuffaar have UN.
El-mesjid-ul-aqSaa is the Partliament in exile. Pharaoh (Akhanaten) took all the power and forbid the outsiders (ie. Hittite) to have any power in decision making.Hajj is an annual gathering of the Parliament, and 'umraa is any out of Hajj. Local commune (qawm) has its own gathering on yewm-ul-jumu'a.
Christians tried to have el-mesjid-ul-Haraam, but it was corrupted and usurped by the Romans, what we call today the Council (ie. of Nicaea). Similarly, when Muhammed Resulullah died, fitna started and there's no el-mesjid-ul-Haraam, as it should be since Ibrahim.
Individuals also have an obligation to study the Qur'an to learn what is not known to them of things they need for life.
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peace all,
I find this interesting. Can this comparison provide clues as what is meant? I will post without much analysis
1821
And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said "Build over them a building/monument" Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who prevailed in their matter said "Surely we will take (to ourselves?)* over them a masjid."
*taking something for oneself?2125 And when We made the house/shelter (bayt) a place of return/filling/reward for mankind and a security, and take (to yourselves) from the status of Abraham a place/time of salaa, and We made a convenant to Abraham and Ishmael that "You (both) purify My house/shelter (bayt) for those who go among/about, and stay/devote, and incline and honour/acknowledge."
https//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=21#(18211)
I think the grammar needs clarified so will post this here
http//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p2/forms-vii-and-viii/
Quote
Often the meaning of Form VIII verbs is reflexive. The Form I كشف means “to disclose” something to someone else. The Form VIII refers to one’s discovering something for oneself.Not all Form VIII verbs are reflexive in meaning. Their range of meanings is broad, so you will need to learn the meaning of each one as you come to it. Many Form VIII verbs are transitive.
A verb can be described as transitive or intransitive based on whether it requires an object to express a complete thought or not. A transitive verb is one that only makes sense if it exerts its action on an object. An intransitive verb will make sense without one.
Background
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html -
peace all,
I find this interesting. Can this comparison provide clues as what is meant? I will post without much analysis
1821
And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said "Build over them a building/monument" Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who prevailed in their matter said "Surely we will take (to ourselves?)* over them a masjid."
*taking something for oneself?2125 And when We made the house/shelter (bayt) a place of return/filling/reward for mankind and a security, and take (to yourselves) from the status of Abraham a place/time of salaa, and We made a convenant to Abraham and Ishmael that "You (both) purify My house/shelter (bayt) for those who go among/about, and stay/devote, and incline and honour/acknowledge."
https//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=21#(18211)
I think the grammar needs clarified so will post this here
http//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p2/forms-vii-and-viii/
Quote
Often the meaning of Form VIII verbs is reflexive. The Form I كشف means “to disclose” something to someone else. The Form VIII refers to one’s discovering something for oneself.Not all Form VIII verbs are reflexive in meaning. Their range of meanings is broad, so you will need to learn the meaning of each one as you come to it. Many Form VIII verbs are transitive.
A verb can be described as transitive or intransitive based on whether it requires an object to express a complete thought or not. A transitive verb is one that only makes sense if it exerts its action on an object. An intransitive verb will make sense without one.
Background
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlThe verbal sentence is لَنَتَّخِذَنَّ Emphatic Particle + Verb Imperfect; First person; plural; masculine; Energetic with Emphatic/Heavy Noon ; ; Subject pronoun hidden; مصدر-اِتِّخَاذٌ verbal noun.
اللام واقعة في جواب قسم محذوفـ
It shows emphatic statement; resolve.The verb needs two objects; hold/adopt something as something. As what? It is mentioned مَّسْجِدٙا .
لَنَتَّخِذَنَّ عَلَيْـهِـم مَّسْجِدٙا .٢١
"Surely, we pledge that in future we will adopt the newly built memorial over them as a mosque."
https//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm
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2125 And when We made the house/shelter (bayt) a place of return/filling/reward for mankind and a security, and take (to yourselves) from the status of Abraham a place/time of salaa, and We made a convenant to Abraham and Ishmael that "You (both) purify My house/shelter (bayt) for those who go among/about, and stay/devote, and incline and honour/acknowledge."
2125 is recited differently in Warsh as past tense "attakhadu" "they took" so it was speaking about people in the past.
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peace Mazhar, Euphoric,
Thanks for the information. Does that mean it could be translated as "and they took (to themselves) from..."
That would be interesting because the rest of the verse does seem to be read in past tense except this part. Implying if a person wanted to link Abraham to their own hajj or institute it in his name they would modify the vocalisation/tashkeel of that part (or read it with bias in favour of their view).Also I think I found another word in the form of maf3al
https//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(2885
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In addition, these verses could be read with these, from
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html9107 And those who take* (to themselves) a maSJD (for) harming and concealment/rejection and division between the believers and preparing/observing** for whoever battled/warred God and His messenger from before. And they will swear "not we wish except the good", and God bears witness that indeed they are liars.
9108 Do not observe/maintain/stand in it ever. A maSJD founded on God-consciousness from the first day/period is more worthy/truer that you maintain/stand/observe in it; in it (are) men who love to purify themselves. And God loves those who purify.
9109 Is one who founded his building/structure (bunyan) on protection/forethought/conciousness from/of God and His approval better, or one who founded his building on the edge of a cliff about to crumble, so it crumbled with him into the fire of Hell? And God does not guide the wrongdoing people.
9110 Their building/structure (bunyan) which they built will not cease to be a doubt in their hearts except/until that cut to pieces their hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
*verb form 8, reflexive.
** is a verbal noun, indicating the act of doing as well as the noun itself, thus the meaning can also include "as a preparation/observation"The verse discusses those concealing themselves under the guise of being good-doers so they can harm/divide believers, spy and help enemies etc. Some related evidence of this understanding, see 5816, 632, 1692, 1694.
The word "bunyan" does not necessarily mean a physical building here, see 1626 in which it is commonly taken as a metaphor. It seems to be about the works of an individual, as not everyone can build a mosque. No physical structure will crumble with the disbeliever in the fire of Hell but it is the structure of polytheism/rejection/wrongdoing/etc that will ultimately crumble with him in the fire of Hell. In other words, this usage could be a metaphor, similar to 1626.
M. Asad notes "In verses 109-110, the reference to "the building which they have built" is, obviously, widened beyond the preceding allusion to houses of worship, and allegorically circumscribes here all the "works" and the behaviour of men."
There is possibly an issue if we take 9108 to mean "do not stand in it (i.e. Mosque) ever", because how are believers meant to differentiate Mosques and actually do this, if in 9107 it implies believers could be duped by such people? Traditionalists explain the context as referring to a rival Mosque being built. Does this mean such a Mosque could NEVER be stood in by a believer? The point being that by using "ever" seems very absolute. If it is not delimited in some way, it could seem impractical/unusual. We could reason that once such a Mosque was not used for this, e.g. run by believers, then believers could stand/observe in it. For example, if "maSJD" meant "time of SJD" then by definition, it would be delimited.
It may be interesting to note that in 1821 a maSJD seems sufficiently distinct from a bunyan, yet in 9107-110 IF they (maSJD and bunyan) are taken as the same thing/reference, as is traditionally understood, they seem interchangeable here. Thus, one might expect one side in 1821 to clarify what kind of building is being proposed by the other side, as they may well have meant a mosque, but this is not addressed.Since chapter 9 seems to be one of the last revealed chapters, a part of me feels these verses could be showing the first signs of a transition in meaning of "masjid" i.e. into a building or with building connotations. Possibly.
I think I found another word with the form "maf3al"
https//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(9514) (marsad)https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
Thus the usage so far does seem to show a clearer meaning of physical place with the form "maf3al". -
sunnah . com/bukhari3453
Narrated
Aisha and IbnAbbasOn his death-bed Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) put a sheet over his-face and when he felt hot, he would remove it from his face. When in that state (of putting and removing the sheet) he said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians for they build places of worship (masajid) at the graves of their prophets." (By that) he intended to warn (the Muslim) from what they (i.e. Jews and Christians) had done.
Reference Sahih al-Bukhari 3453, 3454
In-book reference Book 60, Hadith 121
USC-MSA web (English) reference Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 660 -
Haram refers to the sacredness, every religion finds the sacredness and signs of God in certain things, like the Sun, the human reproductive organs, the cow, the stars, hills , the angels etc.. In Islam the masjid itself is Haram(sacredness) as there is nothing to be associated with, so the belief/thought, there is nothing that can be associated with HIM is the masjid Al Haram and it becomes the focus, ie Purity of mind and body is the focus. It starts from the story of Abraham and the state of his mind that all encompassing is his creations and signs. but Quran also asks us to respects the signs an also respects the prophets, the angels etc.
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https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
Another possible option could be al masjid al haram meaning the inviolable place of acknowledgement, which refers to the area in which the various regulations are in place, no fighting etc and hajj/commemoration takes place there. So not a Mosque but an area. Interestingly this has some support in tafsirs, as mentioned in the article.
The possible weaknesses for this understanding could be a few verses. I'm currently reviewing it.
Background
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html -
The Masjid Al Haram, can refers to a sanctuary,and initially used by some sects and later taken over by the muslims,where fighting was forbidden and used for religious sacrifices at the time of Hajj, and also looks to be a center for the community, where its people unite.
Sanctuaries were built for such purposes, since very ancient times, by the Jews, Romans, Nabateans, Greek and even the Pyramids can be a type of sanctuary.
Mount Hermon has a lot of old temples, the word Hermon comes from the word Haram,
Jerusalem Temple mount is called Haram al shariff,Nabatean Arab Sanctuaries were there dedicated their Gods, in places like Petra and many other places.
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Great article Wakas.
It's interesting to consider the intended sense of the phrase as 'time of sujǔd.' It certainly fits some Quranic statements. I assume, therefore, that you understand the following statement as a figurative expression ومن حيث خرجت فول وجهك شطر المسجد الحرام وحيث ما كنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره And whence thou hast egressed, turn thou thy face in the direction of almasjid alharam, and whencesoever ye be, turn ye your faces in its direction 2150?
What would be the reason here for the use of خرج To egress/go out?
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peace bro uq,
No, not really figurative. It is saying wherever thou/you (i.e. any believer) are turn your face/will/purpose/attention/whole-being towards the special time-period/event, i.e. get ready, prepare yourself for what you need to do and since it involves travel for many, so wherever you depart, wherever you have to travel from, turn your purpose to this event, getting there, attendance etc.
Let me explain...
In my view, prior to these verses the believers of the time did not concern themselves* with the event of al hajj and the special time period/event surrounding it, e.g. annual haram, annual fair or however one interprets it - it is clear it an event with various regulations in place. Logic dictates that this requires a demarcated area in which these regulations are in place.
*nor was it commanded by God.
I often wondered why Quran only seems to mention al hajj, AMAH, in the latter part of revelation, but now I have a good idea why, and it is linked to the change of qiblah/focal-point/focus. Prior to this the believers were going against the grain, i.e. against the people surrounding them and their beliefs, preaching a contrary message, distancing themselves ethically/spiritually, it was an antagonistic approach. It would have been tough and lots of persecution/hostility, and it would have taken time for their numbers to grow.
By the time of these verses the believers were relatively large in number and relatively widespread, i.e. they were nearing completion of God's favour/blessing, but they needed a way to solidify their growth, a way to display a show of force, in order to triumph above all surrounding opposition, hence the messenger's feeling , looking for a way forward so God provided them with the perfect opportunity, the perfect vehicle though which to do this and unite through this, and that was this special event, e.g. AMAH, al hajj etc.
This well-known undertaking/event allowed them to gather believers from all over and solidify their authority and once others saw that, it was effectively over for the opposition. Hence the fulfilled prophecy 4827.Naturally this involves travel, preparation etc hence the phrase you referred to.
After which, in my view, a confederation of believers formed which Fred Donner talks about a lot 5RFK5u5lkhA].
Book pdf.
Let me know your thoughts.
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I see. I accept the 'believers' movement' thesis of Donner. Pretty early on in my Quranic journey, I kinda gathered that the community of believers around Muhammad was multi-religious or ecumenical, based on statements like 262 and others like it.
I completely accept your rendition of 'time of sujūd', just as much as I accept the possibility of 'place of sujūd,' both, to my mind, are tenable.
What supports your position further is an early attestation of Masjid in the work of Abd ArRazzāq AṣṢan'ānī (died around 200 AH), the Muṣannaf, which is esentially a massive work on reports/hadith. However, Harold Motzki reckons that some of the reports in that work that date back to the early 100s and late 90s are historically reliable. I only mention this work to say that it uses the word Masjid in a way which is very close to the definition you give, i. e. any place of sujūd, as opposed to a formally instituted building dedicated to worship (or Mosque). Thus, one observes in this work that people speak of "a masjid in the house of Zayd" or "a masjid in the bazar" and so on. Therefore, up until the late 1st century and early 2nd century, people still understood the term Masjid in a purely inguistic sense, namely, any time or place of sujūd.
It ought to be noted, however, that Ḥajj or Ḥagg has been attested in inscriptions in Arabia since pre-Quranic times in various languages and dialects of old Arabic. Its meaning there seems to be related to making a trip to a shrine and making an offering to one's deity; Al-Jallad has recently published The Religion and Rituals of the Nomads of Pre-Islamic Arabia, you can find more information there. Of course, I take the view that the Quran is more than capable of defining its own terms, but I also believe that it is near-critical that one ought to be able to harmonise historical realities into one's thesis, whatever one's thesis may be. To this end, I can see how your idea may agree with these historical realities.
What is your understanding of Bakkah in 396?
Also, what do you make of the northern origin theory? I. e. that AMAH was originally in the north of Arabia or maybe even the Levant?
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Eventhough Masjid Al Haram, refers to a place in many verses, in some verses 2140-150 its about its literal meaning, which i think is closer to "Dicipline/Morals/Following the Restrictions",
for example 2150, "so people will not have any arguments except the law breakers/wrong doers".So the Qibla will the discipline/law+rules, and to follow those, whereever one go or is in,
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peace uq,
Thanks for the additional information. There was likely various haram or sanctuaries setup across Arabia. This is what I have read anyways.I have no issue with al hajj involving travelling to a particular location and it is very likely there was a shrine there or multiple but that does not necessarily mean they were venerated by the believers of Quran. There was almost certainly a mix of practices going on in that location, due to the mix of people there.
This is how I believe these rituals got mixed into Muslim practice inadvertently. What likely compounded the issue was al hajj and AMAH did not play a significant role for the believers until at a late stage hence there was not much familiarity with the practices associated with it, and apparently the messenger only did hajj once (although some say a few times), and apparently there was a mix of views on whether it was obligatory or not after these events (i.e. after the prophet's passing). Further some have said some of the early traditional tafsirs or hadiths are simply exegetical material made-up to explain the Quran's verses so they likely did not know or it was forgotten what some of the terms referred to etc.
So I can imagine many believers after the prophet's passing if they did do hajj etc would have done some of the things that others were doing at these locations, then gradually these practices became Islamisized, folklore turned into facts, formalised as orthopraxy etc.
I often wonder what Traditionalists say about Jesus and Moses and hajj, if they did it or not, if yes, where to etc, where is the record of this etc - if you are familiar with what Traditionalists claim on this issue please share. I'm familiar with "hagg sukot" but I imagine this was done in various other places, not the place today known as Makkah. If so this fits with my hypothesis that a specific location may not be as important as commonly thought.I speak about "bakkah" here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlQuote
396 Indeed, the first1 house/shelter placed/set-down2 for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka3 blessed and a guidance for the beings.
397 In it clear signs/evidences, the stance/position/status4 of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And for God upon mankind (is) the HaJJ (at/of) the house/shelter, whoever is able to make a way to5 it, and whoever conceals/rejects then truly God has no need of the beings.1first means others are possible, also see 2436. This would explain well the narration interplay between Abraham's example and the believers this time around, indicating that Abraham's model is an example for them to follow. This is perhaps linked to his status as an imam/model/exemplar for mankind .
2 Arabic "wudi'Aa" often translated incorrectly as "set-up" or the like.
3 this could be a proper name of a place, however it could mean "distinguishing/ranking above others", "crowding" or some other CAD meaning for Ba-Kaf-Kaf. Interestingly, "crowding" is a common meaning to both BaKKah and MaKKah, thus could explain how they became interchanged in future Traditional Islamic sources. I personally think "makkah" means "crowding" in 4824.
4 Arabic "maqam" does not commonly mean physical standing place, see other occurrences.
5 Arabic "ila" implies motion and/or direction.Note the object of it (Arabic hi/hu) can only be "bayt/shelter", however most traditional translators try to explain this away as referring to "the haram/sanctuary of Makkah" e.g. Ibn Kathir. This peculiar issue will be discussed later.
If the "bayt" mentioned in 396 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues
- a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7159, 7181, 2173)
- according to traditional Islamic history the cuboid called Kaabah has been demolished and rebuilt several times, and flooded multiple times - if so, does its status as a "guidance" and "securing" become temporarily suspended at these times? Is it really a divinely chosen place if it is prone to flooding?
- what are the clear signs in the cuboid called Kaabah? Is there even any? It is very rare for people to enter it today.
- I am not aware of any non-Islamic source that states Abraham was in the area of Makkah, nor any prophet/messenger thereafter.
- in present day Makkah, the alleged "maqam Ibrahim" (stone imprint of Abraham's footsteps) is outside the cuboid called Kaabah, not inside it like the verses say.
- I am not aware of any source which cites a place called Makkah or a cuboid called Kaabah prior to traditional Islamic sources.
Re northern origin theory
I think it has some weight. I know bro Ayman thinks this is the case also. I often wondered why Quran is not explicit about the location if the location was important. To me it reads as a model, an exemplar for us to follow. Prophet Muhammad seemed to have followed the blueprint of Abraham and instituted it wherever he was, so likewise believers of today can follow that same blueprint if they wish to institute this event.Side note
Since you like linguistics in my article on AMAH I mentioned the alleged grammatical issue in 2217. Would be good to get your take on it.To be honest I think we've pretty much cracked what al hajj, AMAH is. I dont think there needs to be uniformity on what we all call it as long as we understand what it is. Just my thoughts.
