Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

Maha

Noon

You said 1 woman can simultaneously be married to 4 men
you said 1 man can simultaneously be married to 4 women
you said 4 men can simultaneously be married to 4 women

and the problem is? confused

By your logic men can marry brother?s wives or any married woman not fathers/son?s?

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

Translate 423 ?

the dictionary says ''wives''

Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand its meaning and context
.

Firstly I dont think the quran was delivered to a 6th century neither do I believe that Quran was for a tribal society. And I do not understand your point in what you wrote above, sorry.

Again, if you want to discuss sexual orientation open a different thread.

No my question is related to this topic and you keep avoiding answering my question. Now Let me repeat myself. You say nisa means ''women''.

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

Now please tell me how I as a woman desire other women. For how long will you keep avoiding my question?

and the masculine/males

the free minds translation says ''sons'' (But I desire daughters confused?

Is it true that all people desire cattle and farms?
Or is the above a few things that people desire?

Yes according to their time. Today we have mercedes and BMW instead of horses and so on.

Please translate?
2222
654
Ha-Ya-Dad (Ha-Alif-Dad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222

I will come back to that word.

Peace

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

Thanks for that. What about this scenario.

Husband sweetheart, I think we should help out in this emergency with the women and their orphans.

Wife of course we should. We will have to sign the contract with local government then set up the other rooms. I can't believe that some people think looking after unfortunate women means you can sleep with them!!

Husband if they were honest, they would divorce their current wife and marry the new one instead of pretending to be helpful and sympathetic. They are insulting their wives and the orphans' mothers.

unknownuser

Peace Maha

I'm NOT interrupting what you and Noon are discussing, but I have two comments to make to you

You said

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

You don't have to assume in that manner, as far as I remember, sister Samia also did this in one of those very old 2006 threads, which resulted in a lot of misunderstandings between I think Tanveer and her, I'm not sure really, but I do know that this happened before. If you apply common logic, one can see that taking vice versa of the prohibitions in this verse also solves the issue

Prohibited women for men on leftside - Vice versa - Prohibited men for women on right side

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her feather
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and maternal aunt(s) - Her brother's son and sister's son
His niece(s) - Marry her uncle
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - Marry her son in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that her mother has consummated the marriage with him
Two sisters at the same time - Her sister's husband

I on purpose left out the daughter in law from biological sons part due to it still being debated on, but this was just to give you an example. To further try to make you understand what I'm saying, consider the following statement 'You should not drink apple juice'. If we want to say it from apple juice's perspective, then by your logic, it would be 'Apple juice should not drink you', however, by my logic it would be 'Apple juice should be drank by you'. You see the difference? Here's another example 'You will obey your teacher', by your logic, it would be 'Your teacher will obey you', but by my logic it world be 'Your teacher will be obeyed by you' or 'Your teacher will make you obey him/her'. There's a big difference. Logic should be consistent, so if you agree that my logic in these statements is appropriate, then my logic should also be making sense and appropriate in 423 as well.

Please, please, please don't use modern Arabic for the Quran. I don't want to say a lot on this, but here are two examples that should be convincing The Arabic word Jayb, as per Google translate, online Arabic-English-Arabic dictionaries, means 'Pocket' 'Sac' etc. but in that era, way back, pockets didn't even exist, as Jayb referred to an opening in one's cloth like the sleeve or collar. Similarly, according to my searches, Darab these days is usually used for 'hit' or 'strike' in Modern Arabic. But in Classical Arabic, 'Beat' and 'Strike' etc. are more like secondary meanings while the more used were 'To put forth ' or 'To leave'. There are probably several other examples.

Released

Peace Release,

Thanks for that. What about this scenario.

Husband sweetheart, I think we should help out in this emergency with the women and their orphans.

Wife of course we should. We will have to sign the contract with local government then set up the other rooms. I can't believe that some people think looking after unfortunate women means you can sleep with them!!

Husband if they were honest, they would divorce their current wife and marry the new one instead of pretending to be helpful and sympathetic. They are insulting their wives and the orphans' mothers.

Peace Dawn,

Umm..this husband doesn't sound like he ever read the Quran. Divorce isn't really recommended if it can be avoided quite easily. So, this woman may have married a dude that has never actually read the text. It seems like she probably had far worse problems in her marriage prior to this, if he never read the Quran. Quite obviously, the arbritrators could advise him against it, if he can save his existing marriage.

Let me put it to you this way If he's talking about divorcing his current wife to "help" another woman, then he probably is just looking for a way out of the relationship. This situation doesn't sound like he's trying to help anyone, it sounds like he's just looking for a way out of his current marriage. Why would a woman even bother staying with someone like that? Perhaps, she needs to look for a way out first.

This situation doesn't really have anything to do with polygamy. I think it's just an unhappy marriage. I would recommend counseling to them.

Released

Peace all,

I second that. If modern Arabic could be used to interpret the Quran, I think we wouldn't have as many questions as we do today. However, we need to realize that modern standard Arabic doesn't cut it even close. It's similar to how modern, standard English is very different from Shakespearean English. Of course, the language of the Quran goes back even further than that. Even differences in dialects can leave room for some major discrepency. I hope that makes sense.

Released

A very civil and important discussion, mash'Allah. Thanks to all involved, just trying to absorb it all...

Peace Zhang,

Thanks, would love to hear what you think.

Maha

Fallen angel

Prohibited women for men on leftside - Vice versa - Prohibited men for women on right side

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her feather
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and maternal aunt(s) - Her brother's son and sister's son
His niece(s) - Marry her uncle
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - Marry her son in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that her mother has consummated the marriage with him
Two sisters at the same time - Her sister's husband

wrong.

Here is the list

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her sons
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and aternal aunt(s) - Her paternal aunts and aternal aunts
His niece(s) - Her nephew
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - her father in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that she has consummated the marriage with the father
Two sisters at the same time - two brothers at the same time.

That is called vice versa. If a man cannot marry his daughter a woman cannot marry her son as well and so on.

To further try to make you understand what I'm saying, consider the following statement 'You should not drink apple juice'. If we want to say it from apple juice's perspective, then by your logic, it would be 'Apple juice should not drink you', however, by my logic it would be 'Apple juice should be drank by you'. You see the difference? Here's another example 'You will obey your teacher', by your logic, it would be 'Your teacher will obey you', but by my logic it world be 'Your teacher will be obeyed by you' or 'Your teacher will make you obey him/her'. There's a big difference. Logic should be consistent, so if you agree that my logic in these statements is appropriate, then my logic should also be making sense and appropriate in 423 as well.

didnt understood a word of the above

Please, please, please don't use modern Arabic for the Quran. I don't want to say a lot on this, but here are two examples that should be convincing The Arabic word Jayb, as per Google translate, online Arabic-English-Arabic dictionaries, means 'Pocket' 'Sac' etc. but in that era, way back, pockets didn't even exist, as Jayb referred to an opening in one's cloth like the sleeve or collar. Similarly, according to my searches, Darab these days is usually used for 'hit' or 'strike' in Modern Arabic. But in Classical Arabic, 'Beat' and 'Strike' etc. are more like secondary meanings while the more used were 'To put forth ' or 'To leave'. There are probably several other examples.

I dont understand your point. I am an arabic speaker hence I dont use google og any dictionary.

Peace

unknownuser

Fallen angel

wrong.

Here is the list

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her sons
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and aternal aunt(s) - Her paternal aunts and aternal aunts
His niece(s) - Her nephew
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - her father in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that she has consummated the marriage with the father
Two sisters at the same time - two brothers at the same time.

That is called vice versa. If a man cannot marry his daughter a woman cannot marry her son as well and so on.

didnt understood a word of the above

I dont understand your point. I am an arabic speaker hence I dont use google og any dictionary.

Peace

lol, you know what, ignore it )

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Maha

and the problem is? confused

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

the dictionary says ''wives''

That is a wrong assumption and wouldn't pass basic logic test.

This is TRUE IF a man cannot marry his mother THEN a woman cannot marry her son.

problem if al-nisa cannot be feminine/women is same sex marriage allowed?
problem if al-nisa is different category feminine/women can you marry them?
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from al-nisa

problem who are mothers nisakum and the ones entered in them?
423 and mothers nisakum ...
from nisakum the ones who entered in them
so if not you have entered in them so not blame over you

problem if hlayl = only present wives; after divorce, can father marry since she is no longer his son's wife?
423 and hlayl your sons the ones who from your loins

, (S,) It (a thing, S, Mgh, Msb) was, or became, lawful, allowable, or free; (S, TA to thee (S contr. of (Msb, K a metaphorical signification, from . (TA.)

she became free from any obstacle to marriage, as, for instance, by having accomplished the . (Msb.) You say, Thou art divorced from me. (TA.)

Lawful, allowable, or free; contr. of ; (S, Msb, K as also (K) and (S, Mgh, Msb, K) and (K a metaphorical signification, from according to some, meaning what is not forbidden; and therefore including what is disapproved and what is not disapproved accord. to others, that for which one is not punishable. (TA.)
A woman free from any obstacle to marriage, as, for instance, by having accomplished the . (Msb.) -b4- See also 5. see . see . -b2- Also A fellow-lodger, or fellow-resident, of another, in one house fem. with . (S.)

And hence, (TA,) A husband (S, Msb, K and with a wife;(S, Mgh, Msb, K as also without (K or they are so called because each occupies a place, in relation to the other, which none beside occupies (Msb accord. to some, they are so called because the husband is lawful to the wife, and the wife to the husband but the word, thus applied, is ancient not a law-term the pl. is . (TA.)

An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.

Firstly I dont think the quran was delivered to a 6th century neither do I believe that Quran was for a tribal society. And I do not understand your point in what you wrote above, sorry.

To understand the words used in Qur'an one needs to understand language and culture at the time.

No my question is related to this topic and you keep avoiding answering my question. Now Let me repeat myself. You say nisa means ''women''.

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

Now please tell me how I as a woman desire other women. For how long will you keep avoiding my question?

Where does it say that you as a woman desire other women?
Do you also desire cattle and tilled land? Does every woman?

Read carefully especially ?from? i.e. subset desired by people.

314 beautified to the humankind love the desires from
(Partial list follows?)
315 say shall I inform you with better from those?

the free minds translation says ''sons'' (But I desire daughters confused?

One has to be careful with translations most have different words translated same.

ibn son Mary
ibnaa sons
249 slaughtering ibnaa-km sons yours and letting live nisaa-km feminine/women yours

Yes according to their time. Today we have mercedes and BMW instead of horses and so on.

Yes that is the way one should read the verse and the example given.

I will come back to that word.

OK we'll wait for you and the rest to translate the words highlighted below otherwise pointless to continue...

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from feminine/women yours

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

Just out of interest. Were a man to have more than wife, he could obviously conduct his sexual life as he/they wanted? I pose this question, because I was out to dinner tonight when a Jamaican man asked if it was ok for Muslim men with more than one wife to have group sex, threesomes, foursomes etc., and if not, why not?

Dawn.

Released

Peace All,

Just out of interest. Were a man to have more than wife, he could obviously conduct his sexual life as he/they wanted? I pose this question, because I was out to dinner tonight when a Jamaican man asked if it was ok for Muslim men with more than one wife to have group sex, threesomes, foursomes etc., and if not, why not?

Dawn.

Peace Dawn,

Honestly, I feel that this question revolves around a separate topic. I will discuss it shortly, but I'm not sure if we'll be able to remain on topic

If there is an odd number of participants, there may be an issue with homosexuality? This depends on your perspective of homosexuality. We've all got our own perspectives on that topic--clearly a separate topic.
There is the issue of whether polyandry is permissible again, you will see Maha and Noon debating this. What is your perspective?
Now, I ask that you reflect on the beginning of Chapter 23 (the first 10 verses). Also, look at Chapter 24 (Verse 30). Those are just two examples. First answer the two initial questions in your mind, then look at these verses from Chapter 23 and 24.

In order to answer this dude, you will have to first discuss your perspective in regard to homosexuality, polyandry, and your definition of chastity. This way, you don't leave anything out.

Additional questions

Can two women present themselves in an unchaste manner to one another?
Can two men present themselves in an unchaste manner to one another?
In the actual act, is it not considered lewd to publically put your sexual acts on display to other people?

After you answer these questions in your mind, then you will be able to reach a conclusion on the issue, God willing.

This topic can relate to polygamy, but is also separate from it as well.

Also, in polygamy and in any other matter regarding women, it is important for the man to make a huge effort in being equitable and just. So, really, he cannot have sex however he pleases. I am assuming that he would have to work out a schedule that pleases all of his wives. Some people may even decide to work out the schedule prior to signing their contract. It could even be included as a stipulation! Otherwise, he could run the risk of creating a conflict, where there wasn't one initially.

Another thing, how weird, for a man to approach you in asking this question? I hope that you at least know him personally, because I would probably run away from a stranger who asked me such a question.

unknownuser

Peace Dawn,

I'd like to add to Released's answer.

If you want a single statement that answers you, then this should do it

A man practicing polygamy cannot have group sex simply because the women are married to the man, not to each other. Hence they cannot be exposed to each other in such a manner.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Dawn, also consider...

231 hence succeed the believers
232 the ones who they in their prayers humble
233 and the ones who they about the nonsense averse/turning away
234 and the ones who they of purification works doing
235 and the ones who they of their private parts guardians
236 only/except on/over their spouses or what possess their right hands so indeed they not blameworthy
237 so from seeks behind/after that so those they the transgressors

Maha

Noon

You are raising good points now, dude

That is a wrong assumption and wouldn't pass basic logic test.

This is TRUE IF a man cannot marry his mother THEN a woman cannot marry her son.

So you mean to say that she can marry her father? Is it only males who cannot marry their mothers or can females do that?

problem if al-nisa cannot be feminine/women is same sex marriage allowed?

if nisa were women then same sex marriage would be allowed since quran claims that women desire nisa.

problem if al-nisa is different category feminine/women can you marry them?
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from al-nisa

You have just exposed in this verse that nisa cannot be women. Read whats written again And not marry whom married your fathers FROM AL NISA

Could the father be married to men since 'FROM WOMEN?' are emphasized seperately ;D

problem if hlayl = only present wives; after divorce, can father marry since she is no longer his son's wife?
423 and hlayl your sons the ones who from your loins

The grammar is in present time, ergo its present. Well to answer that you have to look at whether a man can marry his former stepmother.

To understand the words used in Qur'an one needs to understand language and culture at the time.

Wrong. You are using hadither arguments.

If Quran is the book of God, then its timeless and beyond any language and culture.

Where does it say that you as a woman desire other women?
Do you also desire cattle and tilled land? Does every woman?

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return

Cattle and Tilled land is a symbol of wealth, so yes I desire it just as anybody else does. Cattle and tilled land in our modern western society have been exchanged to money. But cattle and tilled land is not a specific gender just as you claim NISA is

Read carefully especially ?from? i.e. subset desired by people

Yes from women, sons , gold silver and so on

One has to be careful with translations most have different words translated same.

ibn son Mary
ibnaa sons
249 slaughtering ibnaa-km sons yours and letting live nisaa-km feminine/women yours

thank you, i am definately going to check up that verse. But there is a problem, how do you say 'daughter' in arabic?

Killing your sons and letting your women live, doesnt really make sens. It was male babies they slaughtered, what has that do to with grown up adult women?

Yes that is the way one should read the verse and the example given.

yes but Women have always been women. Women were women back then and as well as today. So you cannot compare the symbolic meaning of 'gold' to 'women' being symbolic as the former is a item and the latter a gender.

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from feminine/women yours

If means menstruation then why does it emphasize on 'from your women'? Is there other then NISA who have menstruation?

Peace

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

You mention other men. There would only be the husband with his wives. Why would there be another man? The scenario did not involve homosexuality. It merely involved all the wives being in the same room and being serviced by their one husband. As long as he attended to them equally, surely this is ok. If you think about, this scenario presents greater evidence to the women that they are being treated in the bedroom. Because, after all, how will they know that they are all receiving equal treatment?

A woman is not chaste if she knows an accepts tht her husband is having se with another.

Released

Peace Dawn

I mentioned other men, incase one believes that polyandry is permissible. I realize that you do not, but the man was talking about group sex, no? This could involve anyone. That's why I covered it.

You are correct, all the women cannot service the man at one time. Men and women are required to be chaste towards one another, apart from their spouses.

Look at FallenAngel's comment The women are not married to one another. This is why I asked you to ponder homosexuality and polyandry. They are not married to one another, correct? So, how can they be unchaste with one another within the same context?

Noon provided Chapter 23, though I did ask you to look at it. You can only be "unchaste" with your spouse. You cannot be "unchaste" with everyone else. So, those "other" wives should not be in the room with the wife whose turn it is that day. One at a time ensures chastity of the women in regard to one another, which is a must.

Noon_waalqalami

Maha

You are raising good points now, dude

Thank you, dudette

So you mean to say that she can marry her father? Is it only males who cannot marry their mothers or can females do that?

No, we have to take the information given apply its reverse; hence...

423 ? and your daughters
IF a man cannot marry his daughter THEN a woman cannot marry her father

if nisa were women then same sex marriage would be allowed since quran claims that women desire nisa.

You have just exposed in this verse that nisa cannot be women. Read whats written again And not marry whom married your fathers FROM AL NISA

Could the father be married to men since 'FROM WOMEN?' are emphasized seperately ;D

No from (-) equates to a subset

al-nisa (all the females) ? females father did not marry = females father married

The grammar is in present time, ergo its present. Well to answer that you have to look at whether a man can marry his former stepmother.

Who made grammar rules and which word is present time w-layl ?
No, cannot marry his stepmother or any woman his father married, see above.

Wrong. You are using hadither arguments.

If Quran is the book of God, then its timeless and beyond any language and culture.

122 indeed We sent it Qur?an Arabic that you may use reason
In old Arabic and if one whose language is Albanian or Zulu asks what is Qur?an?

But cattle and tilled land is not a specific gender just as you claim NISA is

Yes from women, sons , gold silver and so on

Beautified for people {An-Nas} ? one of the items listed is cattle.
Therefore, according to your interpretation all people want cattle?

thank you, i am definately going to check up that verse. But there is a problem, how do you say 'daughter' in arabic?

There are a few words and phrases which can be understood as female offspring or daughters...

423 ? w-bnat and girls/daughters the brother w-bnat and girls/daughters the sister

2827 said I indeed I want that marry you to any/one abnty my daughters these two

3359 O you the prophet say to your spouse?s w-bnat-k and your girls/daughters w-nisaa/and feminine the believers draw onto them from their garments that lowest that they are known so not disturbed/harmed and is The God Forgiving Merciful

6612 and Mary abnt daughter Imran

Killing your sons and letting your women live, doesnt really make sens. It was male babies they slaughtered, what has that do to with grown up adult women?

There is no age limit for nisaa which is clear from inheritance verses; use context to determine age.

411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (f) so if are (f. pl) nisaa/feminine above two (f) falahunna/so to them (f. pl) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/is (f) widatan one/single (f) so to her the half

yes but Women have always been women. Women were women back then and as well as today. So you cannot compare the symbolic meaning of 'gold' to 'women' being symbolic as the former is a item and the latter a gender.

It?s like saying people love to shop or people like cattle; shouldn't be taken as all people.

If means menstruation then why does it emphasize on 'from your women'? Is there other then NISA who have menstruation?

It equates mathematically/logically as minus or subset or in this case ?from? refers to ?nisaa? that are nisaa/women yours same like ? and from fears The God? ? the ?from? refers to people mindful.

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from nisakum/feminine yours if you doubt so their waiting period three cycles and the ones (f) not menstruated and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

For Noon WalQalami

Salamun Alaykum Noon, keep in my mind my reply to you in Reply #209 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg313973#msg313973 I'm expecting a reply from you for that.

Peace Fallen Angel, in context translate the word in question?

I've come to conclusion it's neither dower nor inheritance rather help them out...

2271 if you disclose the handouts so good it is and if you keep secret and give it the poor so it better for you and will remove about you from your evil deeds and The God in what you do Aware

41 O you al-nas/the humankind fear your Lord The One created you from soul one/single (f) and created from it its spouse and dispersed from them two rijalan/men much wanisan and feminine/women and fear The God The One you ask with it and the wombs indeed The God is over you Watchful
42 and give the orphans their wealth and not exchange the bad with the good and not eat/consume their wealth to your wealth indeed it is sin great
43 and if you fear that not do justice in/concerning the orphans so for marrying what aba/choice for/to you from the feminine/women paired/twos and three and four so if you fear that not do justice so one/single (f) or what possess your right hands that minimum that not you oppress
44 and give the feminine/women their handouts graciously so if ib'na ? for you about a thing from it of soul so eat/consume it satisfaction ease
45 and not give the foolish your wealth the one made The God for you standing/support and provide them in it and clothe them and speak to them a word nice/appropriate
46 and test the orphans until when attained the marriage so if you perceive from them rational so deliver to them their wealth and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily lest/that they grow up and from is rich so should refrain and from is in need for so let eat/consume in the fair manner/honor so when you deliver to them their wealth so take witnesses on/over them and sufficient in The God Reckon-er

960 surely the handouts to the poor and the needy ...

unknownuser

Hey guys why the sudden stop?

Released

Peace FallenAngel,

This sudden stop is due to the reason that our attention has shifted over to Damon's (Shirley's) thread. They are discussing the meaning of "nisa" along with other words within 4.3. I think you'll find it very interesting, as it relates very well to our discussion here.