Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

Released

I am here to learn about the Qur'an and issues connected with the Qur'an.
I do not participate if I cannot contribute with valuable information.
I also cease to follow the thread if it goes off topic.

Sounds good to me )

Noon_waalqalami

Peace sister Maha,

Peace bro. You suggest the same thing, so whats the problem?

No, a man married to multiple women is not same as many men married to same multiple women.

You are right. I havent shown you that yet, I apologize for that. So let me show you the verse

Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who are in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

How is the above verse evidence that many women are allowed to marry many men?

423 prohibited on/over you your mothers w-bnat-km and your girls/daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mothers sisters w-bnat and girls/daughters the brother w-bnat and girls/daughters the sister and mothers the ones who nursed you and your sisters from the nursing and mothers nisakum/your feminine/women and your step daughters the ones who in your guardianship from nisakum/your feminine/women the ones who entered in them so if not you were entered in them so not blame on/over you and wives your sons the ones who from your loins and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful

On the contrary IF prohibited ? between the two sisters? THEN permitted are non-sisters!

So you mean that quran is a book for tribal societies? Well then we cannot really use it anymore in our modern western gender-equal society anymore, right?

P.s Can you show me where the quran says that it was delivered in the 6th century?

No, not what I wrote.

It does not say in Qur?an nor did I write; approximate time known by language history (coins, inscriptions).
http//ancientcoinsforeducation.org/gallery2/v/Coins+of+Pre-Islamic+Eastern+Cultures/10+Sasanian+Khusru+II.jpg.html

His pairs is lawful for him. What has this to do with the nisa discussion?

Another translating could be No NISA are lawful to you after this, nor that you change them for pairs, even though you may be attracted by their goodness, except what is maintained by your oath. And God is Watcher over all things.

In other words, you cannot exchange NISA with Azwaj.

In context, explain pairs and likewise how other than females/nisa can menstruate and give birth?

Let me give you the verses where NISA cannot mean women

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return

Nisa here cannot mean women because Homosexuality would then be justified

Cross-reference for consistency and best meaning ?

sons (plural)

3355 not blame onto them in their fathers and not their sons and not their brothers and not sons their brothers and not sons their sisters and not their feminine/women and not what possess their right hands and be mindful The God indeed The God is on/over each thing witness

249 and when We saved you from family Pharaoh afflicting you horrible the punishment slaughtering your sons and letting live nisakum/your feminine/women and in those a trial from your Lord great

wal-bnyn/and the masculine/males

314 ornament/beautified to al-nas/the humankind love

the desires from the feminine/women and the masculine/males
and the heaps the stored up from the gold and the silver
and the horses the branded
and the cattle
and the tilled land

those provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return

6100 and they make to God partners the jinn and He created them and they attribute to Him bnyn/masculine/males w-bnat/and girls/daughters without knowledge Glory be to Him and Exalted He of what they attribute

37151 that not indeed they from their lie they say
37152 walada/born/begot The God and indeed they surely liars
37153 has He chosen al-bnat/the girls/daughters on/over al-bnyn/the masculine/males

I will come up with other verses soon as well..

OK and please first answer above questions posted to you especially on menses and child birth.

Peace

Maha

Noon

No, a man married to multiple women is not same as many men married to same multiple women.

Please explain why its not the same.

How is the above verse evidence that many women are allowed to marry many men?

Let me repeat it Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who are in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Use your brain please. You are not allowed to marry the wife of your biological son, which means that if he wasnt your biological son you could marry her. So the wife ends up having two husbands.

On the contrary IF prohibited ? between the two sisters? THEN permitted are non-sisters!

Same thing goes from the verse above. IF prohibited between your biological sons THEN permitted are non-biological sons wife!

No, not what I wrote.

It does not say in Qur?an nor did I write; approximate time known by language history (coins, inscriptions).

What have these coins to do with anything? And you basically say that a modern woman like me who doesnt live in a tribal village, should not follow the quran since its not written for me?

In context, explain pairs and likewise how other than females/nisa can menstruate and give birth?

give me the verses and please answer my question. is being lesbian allowed?

sons (plural)

3355 not blame onto them in their fathers and not their sons and not their brothers and not sons their brothers and not sons their sisters and not their feminine/women and not what possess their right hands and be mindful The God indeed The God is on/over each thing witness

249 and when We saved you from family Pharaoh afflicting you horrible the punishment slaughtering your sons and letting live nisakum/your feminine/women and in those a trial from your Lord great

wal-bnyn/and the masculine/males

314 ornament/beautified to al-nas/the humankind love

the desires from the feminine/women and the masculine/males
and the heaps the stored up from the gold and the silver
and the horses the branded
and the cattle
and the tilled land

those provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return

6100 and they make to God partners the jinn and He created them and they attribute to Him bnyn/masculine/males w-bnat/and girls/daughters without knowledge Glory be to Him and Exalted He of what they attribute

37151 that not indeed they from their lie they say
37152 walada/born/begot The God and indeed they surely liars
37153 has He chosen al-bnat/the girls/daughters on/over al-bnyn/the masculine/males

I didnt understood the point of the cross references. Please just tell me in short, how I desire women.

Peace

unknownuser

For Noon WalQalami

Salamun Alaykum Noon, keep in my mind my reply to you in Reply #209 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604568.msg313973#msg313973 I'm expecting a reply from you for that.

unknownuser

fftopic

Hmmm...just because we are not quoting from the Qur'an or having a deep discussion using every Arabic term doesn't mean we are getting off topic...did I not just use a personal situation to refer to the topic we are discussing? I think I did.

But fine...I will leave the thread alone so that you can participate.

dawngorgeous

Peace Fallen Angel,

Thank you for your reply in post 224. I take your point about the husband having to ask permission. However, even if a woman has the opportunity to be consulted, I fear her heart will have been broken by the sheer knowledge that her husband would like an additional wife. Remember, that this new marriage is not just about protecting the adult orphan women, marriage implies they are going to be intimate with each other. So, whereas personally I would be impressed if my husband wanted to support an unfortunate woman financially, I would not be happy with the intimacy part of the support.

Shirley

Everyone I kindly invite you to read This Post I made in another thread and my reply (so far) to Wakas in that thread.

Released

Hmmm...just because we are not quoting from the Qur'an or having a deep discussion using every Arabic term doesn't mean we are getting off topic...did I not just use a personal situation to refer to the topic we are discussing? I think I did.

But fine...I will leave the thread alone so that you can participate.

Peace Amina,

Your participation is welcome and we love reading your posts. Don't worry about what anyone says.

Released

Everyone I kindly invite you to read This Post I made in another thread and my reply (so far) to Wakas in that thread.

Peace Shirley,

Thanks for the link. I will need some time to read through your and Wakas's discussion.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Maha,

Please explain why its not the same.

Not same or A != B
A. Man married to multiple women
B. Woman married to multiple men

Use your brain please. You are not allowed to marry the wife of your biological son, which means that if he wasnt your biological son you could marry her. So the wife ends up having two husbands.

Same thing goes from the verse above. IF prohibited between your biological sons THEN permitted are non-biological sons wife!

Needs to divorce first; see example in 3337
423 waalailu your sons the ones who from your loins
the above pertains to their sons? former wives Ha-Lam-Lam = To untie/undo/open (a knot)
Already married women are prohibited 424 w-al-mnat (already explained by Fallen Angel)

What have these coins to do with anything? And you basically say that a modern woman like me who doesnt live in a tribal village, should not follow the quran since its not written for me?

You asked about the revelation timeline how it can be determined; therefore, coins, inscriptions, etc.
No. I did not write or infer anything about your modernity. Those are ideas that popped in your head.

give me the verses and please answer my question. is being lesbian allowed?

Sure for you and Shirley ? explain how al-nisa can be other than (insert meaning) feminine/women?

2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon the feminine/women in the menstruation

411.... so if are feminine/women above two (feminine) so to them (feminine) two thirds what left

422 and not marry whom married your fathers from the feminine/women

651 O you the prophet when you divorce the feminine/women so divorce them to their waiting period and count the count

654 and the ones (feminine) who despaired from the menstruation from nisakum/your feminine/women if you doubt so their waiting period three cycles and the ones (feminine) not menstruated and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

I didnt understood the point of the cross references. Please just tell me in short, how I desire women.

I'm sure that not all people have a fetish for fine horses, cattle, and farms.
Try insert your meaning for al-nisa then post the verse see how it comes out?
Read verse carefully pay attention to each word especially "from" (i.e. subset).

Maha

Noon

Not same or A != B
A. Man married to multiple women
B. Woman married to multiple men

Its excately the same. Whats the difference?

Needs to divorce first; see example in 3337
423 waalailu your sons the ones who from your loins
the above pertains to their sons? former wives Ha-Lam-Lam = To untie/undo/open (a knot)
Already married women are prohibited 424 w-al-mnat (already explained by Fallen Angel)

Women with multiple husbands also do get divorced.

The verse is in present tense. So its not your sons former wives, but your sons wives.
Muh7senaat does not mean ''married'' and I have explained that earlier as well. Neither does it mean married in free minds quran translation.

No. I did not write or infer anything about your modernity. Those are ideas that popped in your head.

You contradict yourself. First you said quran is a tribal book because it was sent down in a 6 century tribal village. Then I asked you if quran is useless for non-tribal societies which you now say no to. Thats a contradiction. If quran is promoting tribalism, then it per logic cannot be used in non-tribal societies.

2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon the feminine/women in the menstruation

Since you dont have the guts answer my question about if being lesbian is allowed or not, let me tell you, that 'menstruation' isnt to be found in the arabic text.

411.... so if are feminine/women above two (feminine) so to them (feminine) two thirds what left

And NISA here can only mean women because? confused

I'm sure that not all people have a fetish for fine horses, cattle, and farms.
Try insert your meaning for al-nisa then post the verse see how it comes out?
Read verse carefully pay attention to each word especially "from" (i.e. subset).

''Women'' doesnt come out well as well. What have fine horses, cattle and farms to do with anything?

Peace

Zhang

A very civil and important discussion, mash'Allah. Thanks to all involved, just trying to absorb it all...

unknownuser

Peace Fallen Angel,

Thank you for your reply in post 224. I take your point about the husband having to ask permission. However, even if a woman has the opportunity to be consulted, I fear her heart will have been broken by the sheer knowledge that her husband would like an additional wife. Remember, that this new marriage is not just about protecting the adult orphan women, marriage implies they are going to be intimate with each other. So, whereas personally I would be impressed if my husband wanted to support an unfortunate woman financially, I would not be happy with the intimacy part of the support.

Peace Dawn,

You're welcome, and I'm glad you got the answer.

I'm not married so I'm not really sure, but I think that husbands and wives are supposed to know each other quite well right? So the husband should already know what type of a wife he has, whether she'll be heartbroken or whether she'd approve it. So if the husband feels that his wife's heart will be broken, then he shouldn't be thinking about marrying another woman in the first place. Secondly, I admit that the wife would feel extremely bad even if he asks her permission and accepts her refusal, however, shouldn't she then look at the bright side that at least he asked her instead of surprising her out of nowhere by bringing in other women as wives right?

But wait, there's something more important that I just noticed that needs to be cleared up, you said 'Orphan women', that is the term in 4127. In 43 which I am viewing as permitting polygamy, only 'Orphans' has been used. Let me repost the literal translation to clear any misconception up

And if you (Masculine) fear that you would not be able to do justice between the orphans, so marry women who have agreed with you, in twos/two and threes/three and fours/four. Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one

It aren't 'the women' who need justice or help, nor is it the 'orphaned women'. But it is the 'Orphans' in general who need justice, which would be given to them by marrying women. Based on that, I deduce it must be emotional justice, and it may also refer to marrying the mother, however, it is not exactly specified as the word used is 'Women', not 'Mothers of orphans'. How does it do justice has been discussed in the much earlier pages.

Mazhar

however, it is not exactly specified as the word used is 'Women', not 'Mothers of orphans'.

Qur'aan does not use the word "widow". Married women are always referred by the name of their husbands even after their death. She remains wife of that deceased man for reference until she marries another man. The discourse in 43 is about treatment of orphans. "The Women" here means only the wives of deceased men who left "orphans" behind, and thereby, they are none but "the mothers of orphans". The prepositional Phrase ? ? relates to elided circumstantial clause that makes the point conspicous and restrictive to such mothers

unknownuser

Qur'aan does not use the word "widow". Married women are always referred by the name of their husbands even after their death. She remains wife of that deceased man for reference until she marries another man. The discourse in 43 is about treatment of orphans. "The Women" here means only the wives of deceased men who left "orphans" behind, and thereby, they are none but "the mothers of orphans". The prepositional Phrase ? ? relates to elided circumstantial clause that makes the point conspicous and restrictive to such mothers

Well since you cite grammatical evidence, I believe you. However, then how would you interpret that part that says '...Fwaahida aw Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. When it says Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one or ma malakat ayamanukum. If Nisa is confined to mothers of orphans, then does this mean that they can also be ma malakat aymanukum? I'm kinda having a hard time understanding this part.

Released

Peace Dawn,

Here's what I think. Men and women are both expected to remain chaste with those who are not their spouses. Meaning, most likely, you are not going to spend hours and hours getting to know someone of the opposite sex when you're already married. This would not be appropriate. Spending too much time with people of the opposite sex wouldn't be appropriate especially when you're married. God tells us to not even go near adultery, so it wouldn't make sense for a man to bring up the mentioning of another woman, without some state of emergency in the picture.

4.3 has nothing to do with meeting a woman at your workplace that you begin to fancy, or meeting her through any other avenue. 4.3 deals with a state of emergency within a community, where orphans and their mothers need to be assigned to willing and able families.

Again, all of this needs to happen with mutual decision making, not just a mere mentioning of "Hello dear, I am going to take another wife, I'm sure you'll be okay with that" Not!. Most likely, hell is about break loose in that fellow's home. Also, secret marriages when you're already married, are dishonest marriages. At this point, if you get stuck with any of the above, you've probably lost every ounce of love and respect for your husband, and will be riding the divorce train out of town.

Like I said before, I can't just consult my husband on bringing home a kitten, I better make sure he's absolutely okay with it (which he never will be, so I might as well forget about it). Some families may prefer the polygamy route (yes, I know it's shocking to us), and many may just prefer extending their charity in different ways.

God is not allowing men to do whatever they want. God emphasizes respect and tranquility within a marriage. It is up to both husbands and wives to ensure that they do their best in upholding these things.

I'm not sure if you're married yet, but I suggest the following to you Get to know the person reallllllly well (spend as much time as you need), devise a marriage contract that fits the needs of both you and your husband to be, and then thank God for having married a man who respects you. That's it.

Mazhar

Well since you cite grammatical evidence, I believe you. However, then how would you interpret that part that says '...Fwaahida aw Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. When it says Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one or ma malakat ayamanukum. If Nisa is confined to mothers of orphans, then does this mean that they can also be ma malakat aymanukum? I'm kinda having a hard time understanding this part.

Perhaps this is explained in the Article on "Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. Pl consult there.

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

I would be interested to hear just how the conversation would go between husband and wife if there were an emergency situation and the couple had not written a a pre nuptial contract. How would the husband break the news to his beloved and what might the follow up conversation look like. Perhaps you could present a short dialogue? I am very happily married thanks.

Released

Peace Dawn,

Sure )

Setting Crisis in the community

Scenario 1
Husband As you know, the war has taken a toll on us. I wonder what is going to become of all of those children who lost their fathers.
Wife Yes, it's rather sad..I wonder what we can do beyond what we're doing now..
Husband I wanted to run across the idea of perhaps expanding our family through verse 4.3...
Wife I'm really not okay with that. The idea of it repulses me. I'm 100% I would not be able to tolerate that.
Husband Okay, that's fine.
Wife However, there are other ways that we can help. We can contribute money, and perhaps even mentor these children.
Husband That sounds like a good idea.

Scenario 2
Husband I wanted to let you know that I will be taking another wife. The children need a father. I should do my part.
Wife I'm really not okay with that. I wish to continue this marriage in a monogamous style.
Husband Well, I feel that I am obligated to help, I think it's something that you are going to have to think over.
Wife I won't apologize for how I feel. I will not continue along this path with you.
Husband Are you threatening me?
Wife No, but I do not wish to take part in a polygamous marriage, and it is my right to reject this.
Husband Well, I also have the right to marry again.
Wife I will be serving you with divorce papers very soon, God willing. I will not tolerate this, it is not the lifestyle that I prefer.

Scenario 3
Wife Wow, the situation is really terrible. Way too many of these children don't have father figures in their lives, and their mothers have been left without any protection..
Husband Well, I suppose this is why God provided us with verse 4.3
Wife You're right, dear. However, I couldn't tolerate such a thing. I don't mind sharing my wealth and volunteering to help these children and women, but I could not live a polygamous lifestyle.
Husband I understand. This is why you stipulated this within the marriage contract. You made it clear from the get to. That was a smart.
Wife Yes..but we should definitely help in a different way.

Scenario 4
Wife I think sometimes we need to make sacrifices in life, to help the greater cause.
Husband What do you mean?
Wife Well, I believe that we have the finances and free time to help these children out, I am referring to 4.3 of course.
Husband Are you sure about this? You have to be sure about this. This will change everything to a degree.
Wife Yes, I think it would be best for the children.
Husband Well, let's think this through, so we come to the best decision.

Okay, I have to run. However, it took me like roughly 25 minutes to come up with these scenarios. These are just some of the scenarios that could take place.

The main things here
Mutual discussion and consultation
Allegiance to one's oaths within contract
Permission
Right to invoke divorce
Rationale To help the orphaned children

There is no coercion here and nobody's being taken advantage of.

All of which is inline with the Quran

You can critique my scenarios, and are welcome to provide us with a scenario.

Noon_waalqalami

Maha

Its excately the same. Whats the difference?

How is it exactly the same?

You said 1 woman can simultaneously be married to 4 men
you said 1 man can simultaneously be married to 4 women
you said 4 men can simultaneously be married to 4 women

Women with multiple husbands also do get divorced.

The verse is in present tense. So its not your sons former wives, but your sons wives.
Muh7senaat does not mean ''married'' and I have explained that earlier as well. Neither does it mean married in free minds quran translation.

Translate 423 ?

By your logic men can marry brother?s wives or any married woman not fathers/son?s?

You contradict yourself. First you said quran is a tribal book because it was sent down in a 6 century tribal village. Then I asked you if quran is useless for non-tribal societies which you now say no to. Thats a contradiction. If quran is promoting tribalism, then it per logic cannot be used in non-tribal societies.

No, I wrote exactly this ?

Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand its meaning and context.

If you want to understand the words you have to understand 6th century Arabic language and culture.

Since you dont have the guts answer my question about if being lesbian is allowed or not, let me tell you, that 'menstruation' isnt to be found in the arabic text.

Again, if you want to discuss sexual orientation open a different thread.

Please translate?
2222
654
Ha-Ya-Dad (Ha-Alif-Dad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 323
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000322.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000323.pdf

And NISA here can only mean women because? confused

411 so if are (feminine) nisa/women above two (feminine) so to them (feminine) 2/3 what left
and if kanat/is (feminine) one (feminine) so to her (feminine) the half

Then there is the math and combinations involved; e.g. who gets 2/3 above?

''Women'' doesnt come out well as well. What have fine horses, cattle and farms to do with anything?

You claimed it says you/all women desire women (lesbianism), and horses, etc. neglect from/subset ?

314 beautified to al-nas/the humankind love the desires from
a. the feminine/women
b. and the masculine/males
c. and the heaps the stored up from the gold
d. and the silver
e. and the horses the branded
f. and the cattle
g. and the tilled land
those provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return
315 say shall I inform you with better from those?

Is it true that all people desire cattle and farms?
Or is the above a few things that people desire?

Peace