Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

unknownuser

No need to apologize. You have said it in a much better way than me; 'God is referring to these marriages taking place in one, single setting'. This is exactly what I'm saying, I guess that another issue is solved. Next I'll share my viewpoints on , after a while though, am doing my homework at the moment lol. But it's good to see that we are coming to mutual agreements in such little time, now lets just hope that whatever conclusion we come to be the deduction that God wants us to make, or in other words, may whatever we deduce be the truth pr

Released

Peace )

God willing! pr

Though, I think we may have some people join us soon, who will disagree with our understanding

All the best for your homework. I have to go to sleep now.

IMHO

Peace,

The believers are not outsiders for me. I would help them financially as well. I only gave the example of a brother and other relatives, because I wanted to show you how I liken the believers to be like my own flesh and blood. Actually, the believers mean more to me than my flesh and blood (they do not believe, by the way).

Still, I refuse to share my husband, as a method in which to prove how much I love and care for my believing family (Ummah). I have the right to live a monogamous lifestyle given that's the way in which I function best. There is nothing in the Quran that compels me to share my marriage with others. I have the right to monogamy and to be respected for it.

This has nothing to do with era or time period. This has to do with respecting the rights of those women who wish to remain monogamous. These things should be discussed prior to marriage and a mutual decision should be met by the engaged couple. A marriage contract with these stipulations would make it ever the more clear. It doesn't make sense to betray that decision at a later time as the contract would be legally binding.

There is no "but" for those who see the whole Ummah as their family and its not easy to live that kind of lifestyle in this day and age where Rich Arabs who practice it and splash their money around, without a second thought for the rest of the world who share their values.
As for Released point that these nikkah have to take place at the same time so there is no first of second wife is something to think aobut. hmm
Salaam

unknownuser

As for Released point that these nikkah have to take place at the same time so there is no first of second wife is something to think aobut. hmm
Salaam

Ahem I was the one who brought up the point P lol, and yes it is something to think about

unknownuser

Peace )

God willing! pr

Though, I think we may have some people join us soon, who will disagree with our understanding (

All the best for your homework. I have to go to sleep now.

Thanks, good night, May you peacefully sleep and wake up to a productive and happy day

Released

Thank you sun

huruf

And I do not see yet how this 4.3 aya has anything to do with poligamy or not poligamy. It is a collective injuction. It is not telling every man to marry this or that woman, it is telling the community that those in a position to do so, should marry two, three, four of a go, I does not necessarily mean the same man marries those numbers but the collective of men marry at the same time one or two or three, and if they cannot even assure that, then just Mamalakar aymanuhum. That is, if there are needy who could be helped through marriage, then they should do it in any number they can offord. Do not forget that men should pay the ujur. Those who are in position to do so or if tghe community can help with the ujur, the community may afford to have one, or two or three, or whatever married, but if not even one, then one MMA, which since the MMA is still being discussed I won't venture to state categorically that, but the MMA would mean that they do not need to pay ujur, which would make it possible to marry a woman, which is always better than none.

As to the yatama an-Nisaa', be it with Al or without it, as vulnerable people , or women in this case, in general, it doesn't feel right to me. In that case wouldn't be "yatamaa min an-Nisaa'? To me the presence of the definite article does not change a thing, it is still a genitive, that is al yatamaa or something of the nisaa', they are not the nisaa' themselves.

Salaam

unknownuser

As to the yatama an-Nisaa', be it with Al or without it, as vulnerable people , or women in this case, in general, it doesn't feel right to me. In that case wouldn't be "yatamaa min an-Nisaa'. To me the presence of the definite article does not change a thing, it is still a genitive, that is al yatamaa or something of the nisaa', they are not the nisaa' themselves.

Salaam

Hmm..I guess what you are saying does make sense, k, we'll take Yatama an Nisa as orphans of women, now I think you do acknowledge that suggests that what its mentioning is already discussed in the Quran previously, and this is only a reminder for that. So it moves on to mention three things it discusses, 'Orphans of the women to whom you are not giving what is prescribed for them and you desire to marry them', 'Oppressed among the children', and 'Standing for orphans with fairness'. Now like I mentioned, 'Oppressed among the children' is previously discussed in , and 'Standing for orphans with fairness' has also been discussed in several verses, and mainly, , but if we take Yatama an Nisa as orphans of women, where in the Quran have women with orphans to whom people are not giving what is prescribed for them yet desiring to marry them discussed?

As for your stance on 43, it's interesting, but I want to settle Yatama an Nisa first

Salam

huruf

Samia has dealt I think several times with this question. There is the possibility, and I do not discard it, rather agree with it to a great extent that riyal and nisaa' besides the acknowledged meaning of men and women, have also another meaning, which should be conveyed by context, riyal are those able to stand by themselves of either sex, nisaa' those unable to do so or vulnerable. If you look at the heading of sura 4. An-nisaa', in fact your realise that the sura is not only about women understood as females, but rather about those segments of society which are vulnerable and how they should be taken care for.

So yes, nisaa, are any woman who needs help, as well as other people in that situation, as simple as that. And women when they are independent economically and do not have the burden of children might also be indepedent to stand for themselves. The great burden for women are always the children, either officially fatherless or de facto fatherless, or even with a father.

Salaam

unknownuser

I too know about that interpretation, and more or less agree with it, as I've seen instances in the Quran where taking Rijal as someone who is able to stand by himself/herself rather than specifically men, makes sense, and the same for Nisa. However, that wasn't my question, what I was asking was, where are 'Yatama belonging to Nisa who are not given what is prescribed for them and are desired for marriage' discussed in the Quran other than , as says that the topics it mentions have already been recited upon the people before it was revealed.

Released

Peace )

I think this is discussed in 4127, but I'm sure if God is saying that the topic has already been revealed prior to the revelation? If that were the case, then perhaps in a prior revelation? I'm looking at a few translations here with the Arabic? Perhaps, we can look a this together? Can you copy and paste the verse from the translation you are looking at with the Arabic transliteration?

Released

Peace again

Though, I agree to a large extent what you've written up in the adultery thread. I think that there are some who are trying to completely rid the Quran of polygamy all together. From my own analysis, I can't seem to find a justification for that. I recognize that it is permissible, but I also see that monogamy is encouraged (justice cannot be between the women whether it be one's own mother and wife, one's wife and his sisters, one's wives, one's daughters, and etc). This is something that God warns us about.

While it's permissible, the context in which I see it being specifically mentioned, is one having to do with charity, care giving, and protecting from theft or corruption (managing the orphan's wealth). When God refers to polygamy, he doesn't mention things like lust or recreation. Also, I read a verse 334, in which God says He has not given men two hearts. Perhaps, this means that there isn't enough room for that equality factor between the wives.

In our discussion revolving polygamy, I think it's also important to remember the human factor in all of this. Our goal in polygamy should be to help and not maim. It should be to promote justice. If we end up promoting a justice in the name of an injustice, then I don't think we've gained anything as a community. These are just my thoughts. You are probably asleep right now. I'll check in later to see your response, God willing. ;D

unknownuser

Peace D,

I'm so glad that I opened this thread, cause of two things

I know I'm not crazy as there is someone who does agree with me
I am coming across different opinions regarding these verses which have helped me a lot

First let me address your first post, actually, the Arabic of that verse is mentioned in my very first post. But I'll post it again anyway, and show you why I believe that it says that what it mentions is already revealed before, within the book

Transliteration Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

(The part in bold is the phrase)

I don't really rely on translations, I mainly try my best to read them all, along with dictionaries and then do my own. I'm a hafiz (Memorized the Quran), so I know the Arabic quite well (Not boasting, but it feels good, though I'm still revising) but here they are

And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning ...

They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning ...

They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning ...

As you can see, all of them translate the phrase, 'Wa Ma Yutla Alaykum Fi AlKitab' as 'That which is recited/has been rehearsed unto you in the book (Gives decree) concerning'

Now here's my analysis

Wa = And, Consider, Behold
Ma = What
Yutla = It is recited, It is rehearsed*
Fi = In
Al Kitab = The Book
Fi = Concerning**

*Note how Yutla doesn't mean 'Recited/Rehearsed', but 'It is recited/rehearsed'
**Fi is a very vague term which depending upon context can mean 'In', 'Within', 'Concerning' etc.

Now what do you think about this? And like I mentioned twice already, the other two topics discussed in this verse, have already been quite directly, and straightforwardly discussed prior to this verse.

Here's my reply to your second post

First of all, THANK YOU SO MUCH for opening my eyes to your interpretation of , about men not being fair with women, I feel so lame, that I was not able to see that, my mind was confined to the typical one that men can't do justice within their wives, and wives alone, I didn't realize that it can refer to so many relationships.

Secondly, I think that we (By we I'm including others too, as we (you and me) aren't the only ones agreeing to this) have finalized the following

Main theme of these verses are orphans
Main purpose for Nikah (whether its my/mirjamnur's interpretation that it refers to polygamy, or huruf's interpretation that it generally refers to having multiple marriages) is the justice for orphans, and not fulfilling carnal desires of men
It mentions, twos, threes, and fours, and one at a time, not two, three, four, or one

I think we are coming to a final conclusion, though we must be very patient, and honest in this quest.

And thanks for pointing out , didn't see it, it'll definitely be of benefit in our mission. (Yeah, treat it as a mission, if God wills, it will make it easier, the more determined, and honest, the better chances of finding the truth)

Do read my replies on the Adultery thread, and I'm saying 'Replies' for a reason, cause I really detest that people - even if done by accident - neglect a person's replies if he/she made multiple replies.

And yes, I was sleeping, hope you reply soon. After that I/we will focus on , and then my interpretation of what is Nikah in this verse, and huruf's opinion regarding this verse.

Released

Peace

You are a Hafiz! That is pretty awesome! Though, the important thing is that you are seeking to understand God's words through research and investigation, mashallah. I wasn't born into a Sunni or Shia family, but I embraced 'Sunnism' in my teens. It was encouraged that I learn to read the Quran in Arabic, but only with the tafsir of those who were deemed appropriate. College and working full time caught up with me, and I never took the time to do it. Now, I am slowly learning with the help of my husband. He taught himself how to read in Arabic through the use of a few books. I don't think I will ever be a Hafiz, but I want my children to be well rehearsed in the Quran, God willing. My daughter is only 6 months old, but I am hoping to get her some private tuition when she gets older. Also, no, you do not appear crazy to me laugh

Thank you for posting verse 4127 again sun. Here is what I was able to deduce from you said

Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

Okay, this is what I've been able to understand thus far. Can you re clarify for me as to what you and Huruf were discussing in relation to 'yatama an nisa' (in regard to what I've understood in the above)? I apologize if I come across a little slow. Sometimes, I am in need of a little repetition and clarification.

I am very happy that God guided me in bringing attention to verses 4129 and 334. I also brought up verse 334 to my husband today, and he found my understanding interesting as well. He also mentioned something else that he happened to find in his studies. He would post it himself, but has been a little busy as of late. I will post his analysis on his behalf in a separate post, God willing.

I really think this cross referencing is doing us a lot of good.

Main theme of these verses are orphans
Main purpose for Nikah (whether its my/mirjamnur's interpretation that it refers to polygamy, or huruf's interpretation that it generally refers to having multiple marriages) is the justice for orphans, and not fulfilling carnal desires of men
It mentions, twos, threes, and fours, and one at a time, not two, three, four, or one

Agreed!

unknownuser

Peace )

You are a Hafiz! That is pretty awesome! Though, the important thing is that you are seeking to understand God's words through research and investigation, mashallah. I wasn't born into a Sunni or Shia family, but I embraced 'Sunnism' in my teens. It was encouraged that I learn to read the Quran in Arabic, but only with the tafsir of those who were deemed appropriate. College and working full time caught up with me, and I never took the time to do it. Now, I am slowly learning with the help of my husband. He taught himself how to read in Arabic through the use of a few books. I don't think I will ever be a Hafiz, but I want my children to be well rehearsed in the Quran, God willing. My daughter is only 6 months old, but I am hoping to get her some private tuition when she gets older. Also, no, you do not appear crazy to me laugh

Thanks, and as for your daughter, May God help her, and make her live a successful happy life, but make sure that - if you hire a tutor - he/she doesn't have any 'Sunnistic' or 'Shiitistic', or mainly, 'Tradionalistic' influence on her if you know what I mean

Thank you for posting verse 4127 again sun. Here is what I was able to deduce from you said

Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

I checked corpus.quran.com, they give you a word by word analysis of the verses, and it turns out, your right. Yutla is an imperfect veb, which means that its in the continuous state, or in the present tense. In other words, its much better if we translate it as 'It is recited/rehearsed'. So the whole phrase now becomes Consider/And what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa ...

Now before I move on, I have one question, what's the point of making that statement in the first place? I mean, the whole verse goes, 'They ask your decision concerning women, Say Allah gives you the ruling concerning them, and/consider what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa ...

So what's the reason for saying 'consider/and what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book'? Why didn't God simply move on from 'Allah gives you the ruling concerning yatamanisa'? God doesn't obviously do things without a reason now does He?

Can you re clarify for me as to what you and Huruf were discussing in relation to 'yatama an nisa' (in regard to what I've understood in the above)? I apologize if I come across a little slow. Sometimes, I am in need of a little repetition and clarification.

The whole thing was that what is the meaning of Yatama An nisa. As we all know, Yateem in its general form means 'Isolated' 'Jaded' 'Left alone' etc. Consider how Khamar in its basic form means 'Covering', and from that came the word 'Khimar' which means 'A cloth that covers' or the drink 'Khamar' which lead to intoxication, or 'Covering' of the mind. Similarly, 'Yateem' became a word that refereed to orphans in Arabia. In the Quran, 95% of the times words originating from 'Yateem', and the word 'Yateem' itself appear, they come with the Arabic article, 'Al', which means 'The'. This way, 'Yateem' or 'Yatama' etc. turn into a definite noun, as in, 'The Yateem', or 'The Yatama'.

Does that make sense? If it does, read on

In , the word 'Yatama' does NOT come with an 'Al', but comes in its general form of 'Yatama'. Furthermore, Yatama is connected to An Nisa, thus, it translates more like, 'Yatama of Nisa'. Now huruf takes this to mean 'Orphans of the women', or 'Orphans that belong to the women', while Abdul Mannan Omar in his dictionary, says, that 'Yatama an nisa' is a phrase that means something along the lines of isolated women, or as he describes it 'Women without husband (Widows or divorced or unmarried)', in other words, he says that Yatama describes a type of nisa, rather than being something that belongs to An Nisa. I opted for that opinion for, you can say, four main reasons

Dictionary says so
After saying Yatama An Nisa, Allah goes on to describe the Nisa, by saying that 'To whom you don't give what is prescribed for them yet you desire to marry them', this shows that the Nisa are the subject, and not Yatama, this motivated me to opt for the opinion that Yatama simply in this case describes Nisa.
If we take it as isolated/jaded women, as in widows and divorcees, and opt for the interpretation that mentions topics which have already been discussed, then it makes perfect sense since in the Quran prior to this verse, there are many instances where the Quran discusses widows and divorcees, furthermore, it even mentions in how men wanted to marry widows, but they have to wait till the 'Prescribed' period is fulfilled, and in another verse says that widows are to be given a year's maintenance. says the same thing that some me wanted to marry these women, and not give them what is prescribed for them. See the connection?
The main question by the people was concerning women, so wouldn't it make sense if Allah starts His answer by discussing women?

Lena

Peace
If we take it as isolated/jaded women, as in widows and divorcees,

Sura 43 Very interesting to read your suggested translation and that it may not refer to child orphans at all but to adult women (who are orphans??) What about Sura 42 Wa 'aatul-yataamaaa Will that also refer to adult women who are widows or divorcees?

If yataamaa refers to isolated adult women, can you confirm if it's the feminine form of the noun? What is the male form. and what is the form if it is a mixed group of males & females? Is there a clear Qurayshi arabic (transliteration) word for orphan girls anywhere else in Quran?

Released

Peace

Thank you for your well wishes! Oh, we?re concerned about that as well! We?re going to look hard for a tutor that does not have such inclinations. Nevertheless, I?ll probably sit in during the process just to be sure that he or she does not go off any sectarian tangents, God willing (Maybe I?ll learn thing or two).

4127

Consider/And what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa

Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

Now, what you are saying actually makes sense. Up until the part, ?to whom you don?t give what is preached for them? everything made sense. However, once the question of marriage comes up, ?yet you desire to marry them?, that?s when the traditional translation stops making sense to me. One cannot marry the orphans, and so clearly, the orphans are not the ones being addressed here.

There is something that is not being offered to these widowed or divorced women ?yatama an nisa? upon the proposal of marriage. Could God be referring to dowry? Perhaps, these women are refusing to give these women their dowries, though the men are keen in marrying them? Or, perhaps God is referring to the year?s maintenance that happened to be mentioned. Initially, I was thinking this verse may have something to do with dowry. Now, I?m pondering over the years? worth of maintenance.

Yes, I think it makes sense. God begins the chapter with a full explanation along with proper protocol, and then readdresses the issue in 4127.

There is one thing that I am concerned about though. You mentioned that 'Yatama' is connected to An Nisa. I always thought the word Yatama was gender masculine.

Released

I just caught my mistake here

Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

**** Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It is recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was recited/rehearsed"

Released

Peace Lena

Well, I think that in 43, 'yatama' can still be referred to as the 'orphan children'. The 'Al" exists before it within the verse, if I am looking at it correctly. However, we're are discussing in regard to where the "Al" is missing. At least, I think that's accurate.

huruf

Regarding the yatama an Nisaa'i or al yatama An-Nisaa'i, I have nothing against the explanation for the understanding exposed by Fallen Angel, but still I cannot see how that overrides or should override that genitive mood of the Nisaa'i. What is the explanation for overriding it? I feel that, unless there is a satisfactory explanation from the gramatical point of view, no matter how much the other understanding may make sense or I may find it suitable, it is arbitrary or not warranted and I do not feel that I have authority to override it to give my own interpretation of the Qur'an.

Regarding poligamy, masculine or feminine, I think aya 24.32 is very relevant.

24.32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

It is a clear indication that the import of marriage is not that some people should have a plurality of consorts, but that every person should have one.

Which again supports the point of view that poligamy may be admissible when there is a shortage of people of one sex, but not otherwise. If there are not enough people to marry the single who would rather not be single, then those willing to marry more than one would have a reason for it, but not while there is no shortage, because that would mean that others are being condemned to celibacy, and the injunction to marry the sangle would not have been complied with.