SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

Thank you very much for detailing from the root word explanation of " " If I were to sum up what you said above in one word would it be
='Sign'?

='Symbol'?
and this one ='Letter/s'?

salaam

Sign

thing representing something else something that indicates or expresses the existence of something else not immediately apparent
a sign of wealth
something conveying idea an action or gesture used to convey an idea, information, a wish, or a command
His kick under the table was a sign that we should leave.
advertising notice a publicly displayed structure carrying lettering or designs intended to advertise a business or product, e.g. a painted board or neon lights
information notice a publicly displayed notice or board bearing directions, instructions, or warnings
a highway sign
indication something that indicates the presence of something or somebody
no sign of life
trace left by animal a trace of a wild animal, e.g. the droppings, scent, or footprints
omen something interpreted as being an omen
astrology division of zodiac any one of the 12 equal parts into which the zodiac is divided, each represented by a symbol
medicine evidence of disease an indication of the presence of a disease or disorder, especially one observed by a doctor but not apparent to the patient
Fever is a sign of an infection.
mathematics logic symbol used in math or logic a symbol indicating an operation or relation in mathematics or logic
the plus sign
music musical notation symbol a symbol used in musical notation
communication Same as sign language

verb (past and past participle signed, present participle sign?ing, 3rd person present singular signs)

vti write name to write a signature on something
vti approve document to affirm or approve a document formally by affixing a signature or seal
sign a bill into law
vti hire somebody to engage the services of somebody by written agreement
The college signed him to coach the team.
vi agree to take job to agree to be hired by writing a signature on a contract
vti signal information to convey information using a signal or signals
vt portend something to be an omen of something to come
That signs danger.
vti communication communicate in sign language to use sign language to communicate a message
She signed "yes."
vt christianity give blessing to somebody to bless somebody or something by making the sign of the cross
..............

Qur'aan is the Miscellany of Aayaat. And they convey verbal message. It is "Kalam" of Allah the Exalted. And Kalam is not merely that what is denoted by English word sign or sign language. Sign signifies communication by gestures as oppesed to written or spoken language. Qur'aan is a communication through written language.

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan---Format and Organization

farida

Sign

thing representing something else something that indicates or expresses the existence of something else not immediately apparent
a sign of wealth
something conveying idea an action or gesture used to convey an idea, information, a wish, or a command
His kick under the table was a sign that we should leave.
advertising notice a publicly displayed structure carrying lettering or designs intended to advertise a business or product, e.g. a painted board or neon lights
information notice a publicly displayed notice or board bearing directions, instructions, or warnings
a highway sign
indication something that indicates the presence of something or somebody
no sign of life
trace left by animal a trace of a wild animal, e.g. the droppings, scent, or footprints
omen something interpreted as being an omen
astrology division of zodiac any one of the 12 equal parts into which the zodiac is divided, each represented by a symbol
medicine evidence of disease an indication of the presence of a disease or disorder, especially one observed by a doctor but not apparent to the patient
Fever is a sign of an infection.
mathematics logic symbol used in math or logic a symbol indicating an operation or relation in mathematics or logic
the plus sign
music musical notation symbol a symbol used in musical notation
communication Same as sign language

verb (past and past participle signed, present participle sign?ing, 3rd person present singular signs)

vti write name to write a signature on something
vti approve document to affirm or approve a document formally by affixing a signature or seal
sign a bill into law
vti hire somebody to engage the services of somebody by written agreement
The college signed him to coach the team.
vi agree to take job to agree to be hired by writing a signature on a contract
vti signal information to convey information using a signal or signals
vt portend something to be an omen of something to come
That signs danger.
vti communication communicate in sign language to use sign language to communicate a message
She signed "yes."
vt christianity give blessing to somebody to bless somebody or something by making the sign of the cross
..............

Qur'aan is the Miscellany of Aayaat. And they convey verbal message. It is "Kalam" of Allah the Exalted. And Kalam is not merely that what is denoted by English word sign or sign language. Sign signifies communication by gestures as oppesed to written or spoken language. Qur'aan is a communication through written language.

salaam Mazhar

I already wrote this in my reply #3 above, which more or less sums up what you're saying above;
You can not make the deaf to hear; however you can teach them to read, using symbols/sign language.
You can not make a blind person to see, yet you can enable him to read, using his fingers to read the signs, symbols (aayaat)in the Braille script

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan---Format and Organization

Before I go further I am pasting one initial sentence from your link above;
We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book-Grand Qur'aan

I am unable to copy and paste the verse you have there in Arabic. Please look at your link and tell me where does it say, in the Arabic version Grand Qur'aan???

Why have you inserted what is your understanding? You apply the same pattern in this link. If you want me to paste one sentence after the other, to show you how you are twisting the words according to what you understand, I can do that, it's not a problem.
salaam

GODsubmitter

Salaam marifhaq
My first reaction when i have read your post is rejection. for me it was impossible that something not given by God was included in Quran.

However when i read again the ayats 11 to 17 and 1587, it seems possible to me that you are partially right

1587 And We have given you seven of the dual, and the great Qur'an.

it is clear, from the verse, that the seven pairs are given by God himself. They are so also revealed by GOD.
However, it seems also, from 1587, that they are not Part of what God consider as Quran.

When we read 11 to 17, it is clear that they are words to put in mount of someone speaking to God.
We can then understand them as a kind of preface of Muhammad.
This can explain why Bismillah is included in the sourate. Bismillah is a sentence that a rassool has to say (in the name of my sender....).
Bismillah seems to be separated in other sourates.
Bismillah is not part of Quran since God cannot says "in name of myself".
However Bismillah is also word selected by God. Bismillah is clearly validated as words choosen by God tu put in mouth of who is to pronunce words of God by verse 2730

my own conclusion is then Fatiha is composed of words choosen for us by God, they have been revelated with quran, they are not part of what God call quran but part of what we should call quran. Fatiha is then both part and not part of Quran.

it is a bit complicated but i think that we have to learn how to deal with multiple levels of understanding

Peace

Thank you @noshirk!

You are fantastic @noshirk!

God bless you and reward you!!!

Love

sun

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

I already wrote this in my reply #3 above, which more or less sums up what you're saying above;
You can not make the deaf to hear; however you can teach them to read, using symbols/sign language.
You can not make a blind person to see, yet you can enable him to read, using his fingers to read the signs, symbols (aayaat)in the Braille script
Before I go further I am pasting one initial sentence from your link above;
We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book-Grand Qur'aan

I am unable to copy and paste the verse you have there in Arabic. Please look at your link and tell me where does it say, in the Arabic version Grand Qur'aan???

Why have you inserted what is your understanding? You apply the same pattern in this link. If you want me to paste one sentence after the other, to show you how you are twisting the words according to what you understand, I can do that, it's not a problem.
salaam

Salamun alaiki,

You can make a deaf man listen when he is watching you and does not turn back on his heels.

He gets the verbal message.

You referred this part of the Ayah

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.038a.gif

In Arabic, nouns in default state are always indefinite. Definite article is fixed on a noun in a text to refer to only that object which is or has become familiar to both the speaker and the reader. "The Book" even in English conveys nothing meaningful unless it is used in the sentence and will refer only to a particular book which is known both to the speaker and the reader. "We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book" will be an incomplete sentence-lacking information for the reader when read in isolation because a question can be raised as to which particular book the speaker is trying to refer to. Because of "Al" if "the Book" is omitted in the translation and instead only Grand Qur'aan is placed therein, it would be the perfect translation of Alkitabi.

farida

Salaam sister

i will give you the interpretation of Jinn/cheikh Dukhani.

Lost are those who reject words of God. They are atheists. They don't even know why they are here.
Those whose God is angry with them are those who know why they are here but corrupt and pollute the message/Amana.

Peace

salaam brother

I understand that you volunteered to given me the interpretation of Jinn/cheikh Dukhani jinn, as the lost ones. However, in the Qur?aan I find several verses where Jinn, along with mankind, are named lost ones, so why single out the Jinn as lost ones?

7179] Sahih International
And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

Then you mention atheists as being among them, but I have met very decent and honest atheists, who are only confused by those that claim to know why they are here. But these, so called guided ones, from among the Jews and Muslims as well as Christains and Hindus have corrupted and polluted the message/ Amana.
It is because of these, , that many atheists prefer to simply listen to their conscienses which, I tell them to see as the ruh/chip of ALLAAH, placed in the human brain to guide them.

Whe can also find this classification in the first verses of sourate 2 , from 22 to 220

Notice also that opposition between Muslim (who receive) and Mo'omin (who take care of what he receive) confort this understanding.
Really, mathania are multiple is quran.

and, as you said, Allah aalam.
Sahih International
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

It is the idolaters/moshrikoun. Shirk is the only thing that God will note forgive.

Provided we understand what is Shirk.
ALLAAHU "alim
salaam

farida

Salamun alaiki,

You can make a deaf man listen when he is watching you and does not turn back on his heels.

He gets the verbal message.

salaam Mazhar

What about this mathania;

Sahih International
Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return .

Sahih International
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment

You referred this part of the Ayah

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.038a.gif

In Arabic, nouns in default state are always indefinite. Definite article is fixed on a noun in a text to refer to only that object which is or has become familiar to both the speaker and the reader. "The Book" even in English conveys nothing meaningful unless it is used in the sentence and will refer only to a particular book which is known both to the speaker and the reader. "We have not neglected mention a relevant thing in the Book" will be an incomplete sentence-lacking information for the reader when read in isolation because a question can be raised as to which particular book the speaker is trying to refer to. Because of "Al" if "the Book" is omitted in the translation and instead only Grand Qur'aan is placed therein, it would be the perfect translation of Alkitabi.

If you can not differentiate between al-Qur'aan and al-Kitaab and then go on to give a long explanation of grammar rules to justify it as the perfect translation of Alkitabi by adding words, which are not there in the verses of the Qur'aan, then what can I say, except you know very well what you are doing.

Sahih International
And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know

salaam

Mazhar

If you can not differentiate between al-Qur'aan and al-Kitaab and then go on to give a long explanation of grammar rules to justify it as the perfect translation of Alkitabi by adding words, which are not there in the verses of the Qur'aan, then what can I say, except you know very well what you are doing.

There were no grammar rules but just the most fundamental information about Nouns in any language of the world. Al prefixed to Kitaab denotes a specific-particularized book. One has to name it, show it or let the reader perceive it. If one cant do it then he/he is just wandering cluless as to which book he is referring. Allah the Exalted has made us see "The Book" transcribed in Arabic and that is none else but the Grand Qur'aan. And after Qur'aan the classification of books is only the Grand Qur'aan and books other than Qur'aan.

noshirk

Salaam Sister
Concerning lost/angry of them , i have nothing to add.

Provided we understand what is Shirk.

Concerning shirk, Ludqman considered it a great danger for his son
3113 And Luqmaan said to his son, while he was advising him O my son, do not set up any partners (LA TOCHRIK) with God; for setting up partners (Shrik) is an immense wrongdoing.

i advice you to study the question very quickly. i did that at point that i based my pseudo on it since i think it is the main danger for whose who call themselves Muslimouns.
So i will pick up verses for you. May they help you to understand. i removed all personal comments and interpretations.

Only Quran

395 Say "God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of the Mochrikins."
614 Say "Shall I take other than God as an ally; the initiator of the heavens and the earth; while He feeds and is not fed!" Say "I have been commanded to be the first who submits." And do not be of the Mochrikins.

2887 Nor shall you be diverted from the revelations of God after they have come to you. And invite to your Lord. And do not be of the Mochrikins.

4012 This is because when God alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were set up with Him (Youchrik bihi), you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great.

416 Say I am no more than a human being like you. It is inspired to me that your god is One god, therefore you shall be upright towards Him and seek His forgiveness. And woe to the Mochrikins.?

622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to the Mochrikins "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to say "By God, our Lord, we were not Mochrikins!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented abandoned them.

931 They have taken their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah, son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god except He, be He glorified against what they set up (AMMA YOUSHRIKOUN) .

7218 And the temples (MASAJID) are for God, so do not call on anyone alongside God.
7219 And when the servant of God stood up to call on Him, they just make round him a dense crowd.
7220 Say "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (OCHRIK)."
7221 Say I have no power to harm you nor to show you what is right.

12106 And most of them will not believe in God except As Mochrikins.
3042 Say "Roam the earth and see how the end was for those before. Most of them were Mochrikins."

Then you mention atheists as being among them, but I have met very decent and honest atheists, who are only confused by those that claim to know why they are here. But these, so called guided ones, from among the Jews and Muslims as well as Christains and Hindus have corrupted and polluted the message/ Amana.
It is because of these, , that many atheists prefer to simply listen to their conscienses which, I tell them to see as the ruh/chip of ALLAAH, placed in the human brain to guide them.

This point is very important, complex and hurting since we have all been educated on the belief that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell.
i will not discuss it for the moment.

Peace

farida

Al prefixed to Kitaab denotes a specific-particularized book. One has to name it, show it or let the reader perceive it. If one cant do it then he/he is just wandering cluless as to which book he is referring. Allah the Exalted has made us see "The Book" transcribed in Arabic and that is none else but the Grand Qur'aan. And after Qur'aan the classification of books is only the Grand Qur'aan and books other than Qur'aan.

salaam Mazhar

I hope you read it carefully and pay attention to every word you can search for the meaning of the Qur?an insaha allaah;
411
412 revelation from all_Merciuil The_Most_Merciful
413 a book/scripture explained its sign Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

431
432 and the Book/scripture the clear
433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

If you can not see what is right in front of your eyes then we end our discussion right here.

salaam

Bigmo

Dear All,Salam
If you go to Islamic awareness and then to "Sana Quran",you can see that qurans written during 1st century Hijrah do not have sura fatiha.Also go to "quran Complex"in Saudi Arabia,I mean their SITE on internet,you can see pictures of many qurans,of course older qurans,pictures show only the first page,and you will see that many qurans start with sura baqar the 2nd sura now known ti us starting with "alif lam meem".
Also present quran says,"quran and seven oft repeated ayats"this also tells us that quran and seven ayats are two different writtings.But after the firsst century people added this sura as a part of quran perhaps because of its repeating in prayers.Thanks.

Thats all based on speculation and implicit verses of the Quran. We are only responsible for what we have possesion of. God does not hold us accountable for what we do not posses. The Quran we have is what we have and that is what is relevant and not what could have been.

Mazhar

salaam Mazhar

I hope you read it carefully and pay attention to every word you can search for the meaning of the Qur?an insaha allaah;
411
412 revelation from all_Merciuil The_Most_Merciful
413 a book/scripture explained its sign Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

431
432 and the Book/scripture the clear
433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

If you can not see what is right in front of your eyes then we end our discussion right here.

salaam

Salam,

What did you see in these Ayahs? Why can't you say anything specific instead of mysteriousness?

farida

Salam,

What did you see in these Ayahs? Why can't you say anything specific instead of mysteriousness?

salaam brother Mazhar

What I saw in the surah are is clear difference between the Qur'aan/the reading and the Book/al-kitaab
For you especially two more verses from the Qur'aam clearly coloured and underlined so there is no chance of 'mysteriousness'
003048
And ALLAAH will teach him the Book (al_kitaab) and the Wisdom (al_hikmah) and the Torah (al_tawrah) and the Gospel (al_'injiyl
005069
If they had abided by the Torah (al_tawrah) and the Gospel (al_'injiyl). and what has been revealed to them from their Lord they would have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a rightly guided- directed people but many of them bad is what they do.

Now pay attention two more verses in the Qur'aan regarding those who were given the Book;
041045
And We had already given Moses the Book (al_kitaab) but disputes arose therein and had it not been for a word that proceeded from thy Lord judgment would have been pronounced between them but they are in an uncertainty from it arousing doubt.
005014
And from among those who said, "truly we are Christian" We did take their Covenant but they forgot a good part of what they were reminded of. And so We brought among them antagonism and hatred until he Day of Resurrection. And ALLAAH will inform them in what it was they have done.

I am sure you can do your own research and study several more verses in the Qur'aan on this subject insha'allaah
salaam

Mazhar

What I saw in the surah are is clear difference between the Qur'aan/the reading and the Book/al-kitaab

the Qur'aan = the reading.

You say above is something different from "the Book/al-kitaab".

And you are saying this by inferring from the quotes taken from the Qur'aan/the reading.

Have I correctly understood you?

farida

Have I correctly understood you?

It's not me, but the Qur'aan that you need to understand correctly. Remember The Qur'aan in 041045 does not say that disputes arose in the Torah but that disputes arose in the Book (al-kitaab).
salaam

Mazhar

It's not me, but the Qur'aan that you need to understand correctly. Remember The Qur'aan in 041045 does not say that disputes arose in the Torah but that disputes arose in the Book (al-kitaab).
salaam

Therein it is said that "the Book" was given to Musa alahissalam. People differed in its contents. What was the name-title of "the Book" given to Musa alahissalam?

farida

Therein it is said that "the Book" was given to Musa alahissalam. People differed in its contents. What was the name-title of "the Book" given to Musa alahissalam?

I am now, for the last time, going to paste for you a passage about this subject, from al-amiyr's discussion on another forum. It may help you if you pay close attention to it, with the intention of seeking the truth insha'allaah;
(underlined by me specially for Mazhar)

Whatever I quote now onwards are all verses directly from the Qur'aan. The problem with the world is that they have mixed up the kitaab (the Book) with the Qur'aan. When ALLAAH speaks about the Book (al-kitaab) in the Qur'aan scholars would insert in brackets the word 'qur'aan'. And this is where all the mischief begins among the Muslims. They blame the Jews and the Christian for changing their Books and then they change the Qur'aan with their minds. If ALLAAH wrote 'X' they think of 'Y'. So when ALLAAH says in the Qur'aan that HE sent to the Jews the Book (al-kitaab) and they discarded it then Muslims think ALLAAH said that the Jews discarded the Tawrah which they never did. So the devil begins to introduce his trickery among humanity

ALLAAH sends Moses (muwsaa) (P+) and with him he sends the Book (al_kitaab) via the Torah (al_tawrah).

The Followers of the Book (?ahl_ul_kitaab)

The followers are all those who have been cut off from the Family Tree of Abraham as well as all the other peoples who have submitted to and believed in his religion after the Torah e.g. the Jews.

Here ALLAAH speaks about His revealing the Torah and what has been preserved from the book (al-kitaab)
005047
Truly We have revealed the Torah (al_tawrah) wherein is Guidance and Light. By it the Prophets who have submitted have judged those who have been Jews and Those in the Divine Rabbinical Service and the Learned Scribes on what they have preserved from the Book (al_kitaab) and they were witnesses over it.

042014
And they did not become divided except until after the Knowledge had come to them through desire and mutual infringement. And had it not been for a word that proceeded from thy Lord for a delayed term judgment would have been pronounced between them. And truly those who have inherited the Book (al_kitaab) thereafter are in an uncertainty from it; arousing doubt.

003187
And when ALLAAH took a covenant from those who have had the Book (al_kitaab) to make it known and not to hide it but they discarded it behind their backs and bought with it some miserable gain! And Vile was the bargain they made.

As you can see from all of the above the Qur'aan is speaking about a book which ALLAAH had sent to the world and the world was never absent from at least the knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab). It is not speaking about the Torah which the Jews have protected like no other book in human history. They have never discarded the Torah behind their backs and nor have they had doubt in it. But it is the Book (al-kitaab) that they have discarded and which they dispute among themselves. Some remnants of the Book(al-kitaab) are found in the kabbalah but not all Jews accept it as there is none to explain it any longer among them as among Christians as among Muslims. The nations are fighting vain battles.
.

salaam

Noon_waalqalami

I am now, for the last time, going to paste for you a passage about this subject, from al-amiyr's discussion on another forum. It may help you if you pay close attention to it, with the intention of seeking the truth insha'allaah;

Peace farida -- the same al-amiyr's who advocates stoning is in the book?

did the book or Qur'an command anyone to stone people?

No the Qur'aan did not but the book (al-kitaab) did.

I hope you read it carefully and pay attention to every word you can search for the meaning of the Qur?an insaha allaah;
411
412 revelation from all_Merciuil The_Most_Merciful
413 a book/scripture explained its sign Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

431
432 and the Book/scripture the clear
433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

If you can not see what is right in front of your eyes then we end our discussion right here.

You can use my translation template although it says exactly the opposite -- that the book is Qur'an!

OK now we all know what you believe and parrot from your ancestors.

2563 ... and when address them the ignorant ones they said peace

411
412 revelation from The Powerful The Merciful
413 a book/scripture explained its verses Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

431
432 and the book/scripture the clear
433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

BTW, I've noticed you have a cult following of this al-amiyr character; one of the worst posters to visit the site.

Peace

farida

Peace farida -- the same al-amiyr's who advocates stoning is in the book?

Peace

Peace Nun

Have you read the Book/al-kitaab to understand details of this ?

You can use my translation template although it says exactly the opposite -- that the book is Qur'an!

No I can't, in fact I have altered your's according to my understanding of 'al-kitaab and aayaat'.

BTW, I've noticed you have a cult following of this al-amiyr character; one of the worst posters to visit the site

That is your observation not my approach. I will quote my friend here; I suppose we can borrow from the Buddhists' saying about how the teacher appears when the student is ready.
salaam

Mazhar

As you can see from all of the above the Qur'aan is speaking about a book which ALLAAH had sent to the world and the world was never absent from at least the knowledge of the Book (al-kitaab). It is not speaking about the Torah which the Jews have protected like no other book in human history. They have never discarded the Torah behind their backs and nor have they had doubt in it. But it is the Book (al-kitaab) that they have discarded and which they dispute among themselves. Some remnants of the Book(al-kitaab) are found in the kabbalah but not all Jews accept it as there is none to explain it any longer among them as among Christians as among Muslims. The nations are fighting vain battles.

al-amiyr's type people have all along been there perhaps since 6th BC. They were even there in the days Qur'aan was revealed. They also used to say things for which they had no evidence to support their contention.

farida

al-amiyr's type people have all along been there perhaps since 6th BC. They were even there in the days Qur'aan was revealed. They also used to say things for which they had no evidence to support their contention.

in that case can you put forward your evidence in support of what you say above ? sun