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  4. SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"

SURA FATIHA IS NOT IN THE "ORIGINAL QURAN"

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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    Noon_waalqalami
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    Have you read the Book/al-kitaab to understand details of this ?No I can't, in fact I have altered your's according to my understanding of 'al-kitaab and aayaat'.

    Peace farida -- explain exactly in context what "it" refers to?

    413 a book/scripture explained its verses Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

    432 and the book/scripture the clear
    433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

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      farida
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      Peace farida -- explain exactly in context what "it" refers to?

      413 a book/scripture explained its verses Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

      432 and the book/scripture the clear
      433 indeed We We made it Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

      Peace Nun

      1. Check properly; does not mean it's verses. Remember to use You can google it. Just make sure you spell it right insha'allaah
      2. Why don't you check the meaning of ? Or study chapter 96 verse 1 of the Qur'aan.
        Once you get to the bottom of these two words you would be in a better positon to argue insha'allaah

      salaam

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        Noon_waalqalami
        wrote on last edited by
        #43
        1. Check properly; does not mean it's verses. Remember to use You can google it. Just make sure you spell it right insha'allaah
        2. Why don't you check the meaning of ? Or study chapter 96 verse 1 of the Qur'aan.
          Once you get to the bottom of these two words you would be in a better positon to argue insha'allaah

        Peace farida,

        3164 truly from The God over the believers when raised among them messenger from their souls/selves reciting on them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the book and the wisdom and indeed they are of from before surely in misguidance clear

        Not about meaning of ytuhu (verses/signs its) rather that it ties the book to Qur'an.

        413 kitbun/book explained ytuhu/its verses (or its signs if you like) a Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

        Therefore Book = Qur'an

        Likewise...

        432-3 wal-kitbi/and the book the clear; indeed We jaalnhu/We made it (i.e. the book) a Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

        Now do you still agree with al-amiyr that stoning is in the book or Qur'an, since you asked me this once?

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          farida
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Peace Nun

          1. Check properly; does not mean it's verses. Remember to use You can google it. Just make sure you spell it right insha'allaah
          2. Why don't you check the meaning of ? Or study chapter 96 verse 1 of the Qur'aan.
            Once you get to the bottom of these two words you would be in a better positon to argue insha'allaah

          salaam

          Before I reply to any post I must correct my mistake above as I was rushing for my dentist appointment when I misspelled it.
          Arabic or is the Arabic word for evidence, or sign, with an at the beginning.
          salaam

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            Noon_waalqalami
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Before I reply to any post I must correct my mistake above as I was rushing for my dentist appointment when I misspelled it.
            Arabic or is the Arabic word for evidence, or sign, with an at the beginning.
            salaam

            Peace farida ? again not about verses/signs and you?re purposely being silent on the stoning question?

            413 a book explained its VERSES Qur?an Arabic for folk who know
            4144 and if We made it Qur?an of foreign (language) they would say why not explained its VERSES?

            432 and the book the clear
            433 indeed We We made it (i.e. the book) Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

            7516 not move with it your tongue to hasten with it
            7517 indeed upon Us its collection and its Qur?an/recital
            7518 so when We recited it so follow its Qur?an/recital
            7519 furthermore indeed upon Us its explanation

            It is clear from above VERSES (call them SIGNS if you like) the book is Qur?an and no stoning in the book/Qur?an.

            Peace

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              farida
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Peace farida,

              3164 truly from The God over the believers when raised among them messenger from their souls/selves reciting on them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the book and the wisdom and indeed they are of from before surely in misguidance clear

              Not about meaning of ytuhu (verses/signs its) rather that it ties the book to Qur'an.

              Therefore Book = Qur'an

              Likewise...

              432-3 wal-kitbi/and the book the clear; indeed We jaalnhu/We made it (i.e. the book) a Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

              Now do you still agree with al-amiyr that stoning is in the book or Qur'an, since you asked me this once?

              salaam Nun

              For now I would suggest if you free your mind and adopt more humble attitude you may see how I see it
              The aayat/sign/symbol/letters tied to the Book/al-kitaab in the Readings/al-Qur'aan

              413 kitbun/book explained ytuhu/its verses (or its signs if you like) a Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

              Campare http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ayy
              and http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=surah
              You see in one case they have given you choice to use either verse or sign but in the next one they failed to give meaning of surah so maybe you can give me it's translation
              salaam

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                Noon_waalqalami
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                For now I would suggest if you free your mind and adopt more humble attitude you may see how I see it
                The aayat/sign/symbol/letters tied to the Book/al-kitaab in the Readings/al-Qur'aan

                Peace -- again not what's being debated; leave untranslated see it still ties the book to Qur'an...

                413 a book explained ytuhu Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

                Do you not see that?

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                  farida
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Peace farida ? again not about verses/signs and you?re purposely being silent on the stoning question?

                  413 a book explained its VERSES Qur?an Arabic for folk who know
                  4144 and if We made it Qur?an of foreign (language) they would say why not explained its VERSES?

                  432 and the book the clear
                  433 indeed We We made it (i.e. the book) Qur?an Arabic that may use reason

                  7516 not move with it your tongue to hasten with it
                  7517 indeed upon Us its collection and its Qur?an/recital
                  7518 so when We recited it so follow its Qur?an/recital
                  7519 furthermore indeed upon Us its explanation

                  Peace

                  Peace Nun
                  No! I was not purposely being silent on the stoning question, I am at initial stage of learning al-kitaab, so applying 7516 not move with it your tongue to hasten with it
                  Soon I wil be in position to address it insha'allaah.

                  It is clear from above VERSES (call them SIGNS if you like) the book is Qur?an and no stoning in the book/Qur?an.

                  Again please learn to differentiate between al-kitaab and al-Qur'aan only then you will understand what I am saying insha'allaah

                  salaam

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                    Noon_waalqalami
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    learn to differentiate between al-kitaab and al-Qur'aan only then you will understand what I am saying insha'allaah

                    Peace farida -- the verses clearly tie the book to Qur'an. giveup

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                      farida
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      Peace -- again not what's being debated; leave untranslated see it still ties the book to Qur'an...

                      413 a book explained ytuhu Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

                      Do you not see that?

                      Of course The Book/al-kitaab revealed /sign/symbols/ letters that makes the Recitation/Reading/al-Qur'aan/the Qur'aan
                      salaam

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                        farida
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        Peace farida -- the verses clearly tie the book to Qur'an. giveup

                        Peace Nun

                        Please don't give up you are almost there insha'allaah
                        pay attention to this;
                        The Arabic language of the Qur'aan is a detailed explanation of the Book (al-kitaab). The aayaat (the signs and the symblols) which ALLAAH speaks about throughout the Qur'aan. They are what constitutes the writing of the Book (al-kitaab) and the Qur'aan is its Reading/Recitation.

                        salaam

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                          Noon_waalqalami
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          They are what constitutes the writing of the Book (al-kitaab) and the Qur'aan is its Reading/Recitation.

                          Peace farida, hence they are the same!

                          413 a book explained ytuhu Qur?an Arabic for folk who know

                          Do you not see that?

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                            farida
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Peace farida, hence they are the same!

                            Peace Nun

                            I know this much about that you do not give up easily so let?s reflect again without any prejudice;

                            The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing. And this writing of the Qur'aan is not just a hollow nothing but every letter has meaning and in these are the sign of ALLAAH.
                            I will quote for you brother Alkitab so you know that there are others who do understand and see the two concepts;

                            8-7 And when allh promised you one of the two parties should be yours, and you were wishing that the one not accoutered should be yours; but allh was desiring to verify / yhk the truth / alhk by His words / klmth, and to cut off cut off the roots of the Unbelievers

                            they wined them by "word's of allh / klmt allh " , mean allh made by his words / klmt the physical possibilities at the external and internal level that lead to the victory prepared and available to the believers to win

                            In the other hand the "allh's speech / klam allh " is the recited order / judgement / explanations, that people should reflect upon and follow at the social level.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604789.270
                            Please pay attention it starts with our mind; the war to defeat ShayTan, & how terrified ShayTan and his allies are that we get the knowleget to crush them insha'allaah

                            salaam

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                              Noon_waalqalami
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing.

                              Peace farida -- there you wrote it again, Qur'an is the book!

                              http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604789.270
                              Please pay attention it starts with our mind; the war to defeat ShayTan, & how terrified ShayTan and his allies are that we get the knowleget to crush them insha'allaah

                              What?

                              There are no coherent thoughts in that thread; the guy promotes stoning, says it's in the book; into ancestor worship.
                              We get one of these delusional Mahdi numerologist characters pop out of the internet bushes every six months or so.

                              Peace

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                                farida
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Peace farida -- there you wrote it again, Qur'an is the book!

                                Peace

                                Peace Nun
                                So are you saying that The People of the Book (?ahl_ul_kitaab) received and follow al-Qur'aan?

                                What?

                                Yes if you pay attention you'll find that all war's start in the mind. Even this exchange of posts between me and you is a battle of minds, as one of us thinks too highly of his own intelligence and refuses to see the other's point, or simply discards it as nonsense. Time will tell who will stick to what s/he holds as god and who will submit insha'allaah.

                                There are no coherent thoughts in that thread; the guy promotes stoning, says it's in the book; into ancestor worship.

                                Maybe you are too busy to read those threads properly; as you can see from many others who have read his posts sincerely, they are finding truth there

                                We get one of these delusional Mahdi numerologist characters pop out of the internet bushes every six months or so.

                                You know he has not even started expounding on numerology, yet you have made up your mind already, so what can I say except giveup

                                salaam

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                                  Mazhar
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Salam,

                                  The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing.

                                  Perhaps this scholarly quote is borrowed from alamyr.

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                                    farida
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Salam,

                                    Perhaps this scholarly quote is borrowed from alamyr.

                                    Of course it is, I am al-amiyr's student and learned from what he explain's in plain English, if I find that my words do not work then I use his or other's quotes and I don't have to put al-amiyr's name all the time as I made sure I had his prior permission to borrow his quote .

                                    BTW you still have not replied to; Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 010511 AM

                                    l-amiyr's type people have all along been there perhaps since 6th BC. They were even there in the days Qur'aan was revealed. They also used to say things for which they had no evidence to support their contention.

                                    I repeat, my request Please put forward your evidence in support of what you said above.
                                    peace

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                                      Mazhar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      Of course it is, I am al-amiyr's student and learned from what he explain's in plain English, if I find that my words do not work then I use his or other's quotes and I don't have to put al-amiyr's name all the time as I made sure I had his prior permission to borrow his quote .

                                      BTW you still have not replied to; Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 010511 AM I repeat Please put forward your evidence in support of what you said above.
                                      peace

                                      A serious look on this borrowed quote of alamiyr was the answer which you did not take as answer. Now please read again the quote but carefully to find its ridiculous style.

                                      The Qur'aan is not only a book that one can read but the reading comes from a writing.

                                      This sort of things they call hidden knowledge of Al-kitab.

                                      Britannica says, "A book may be defined as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence".
                                      Arabic, as is well known, is the language based on Roots, three or four consonants placed in a peculiar sequence which signify a specific and exclusive perception and signification. Words, originating from these Roots on various well defined patterns-moulds-structuring frames, retain the original perception infolded in the Root with additional meanings and connotation, shades and colours added by the peculiar pattern-placing of vowels-syllabification, addition of consonants.
                                      The Root of word is " ". The learned Lexicographers stated about the perception and signification infolded in the Root, as under
                                      ( &#1577

                                      . . .

                                      .
                                      ( &#1576
                                      .

                                      Lane's Lexicon transcribes the contents of Classical Arabic Lexicons in English in these words
                                      b2- Hence, , aor. and , inf. n. , He conjoined the or? of the mule's vulva by means of a ring or a thong; (S as also . (A.) , aor. and , (K,) inf. n. ; and ; (TA He closed the camel's vulva, (K,) and put a ring upon it (TA) or he put a ring of iron or the like upon it, (K,) conjoining the or?, in order that she might not be covered. (TA.) -b3- , aor. , inf. n. ; (S and ; (K He sewed a , (S,) or a , (K,) or a , (TA,) with two thongs (K) or, accord. to some, he closed it at the mouth, by binding it round with a , so that nothing should drop from it; (TA or signifies he sewed a ; and , he bound it with a , i. e. bound it round the upper part.
                                      .] A thing in which, or on which, one writes a written piece of paper or of skin (K) a writing, or writ, or thing written;

                                      It is thus evident that in whatever context, and whatever is the word that originates from this Root the basic meaning, signification shall be, that it leads to the perception of gathering, grouping, assembly, adjoining a thing with other thing. An act has a built in purpose/objective aimed at. It were/is employed to convey the perception and meanings of conjoining the os of she-camel?s vulva, by means of a ring or thong, in order to close the opening. The objective is that an unknown male, without the will of her owner, might not cover her. Its perception and meaning is to bring the mouth of some container together, conjoin it and sew it.
                                      Thereby, it signifies the act of writing or inscribing, and denotes book. It may be seen that in the act of writing, particularly Arabic text, and making a book, the basic perception of the Root is conspicuously dominant. Writing is nothing except bringing closer the letters-consonants of alphabet of language and stitching-sewing them together. It yields syllables and words of meaningful import, and grouping or assembly of words produces sentences. The gathering of sentences yields number of papers-parchments-scroll depending on the quantum of written material.
                                      As is the purpose of stitching the mouth of some receptacle-container, the purpose of writing is to keep the matter preserved, and avoid it gets scattered and diminished.
                                      The basic purpose of conjoining the mouth of she-camel's vulva is to ensure protection from unwanted/undesirable entry into it, without the will of the owner when he is away from her. The same objective is there when a person authors-puts down his statement-thoughts in writing, whereby none can pollute-intermix any thing in that written matter/thought in time and space since it is physically available for reference and visual check.
                                      The act of bringing together, or conjoining and stitching, or scrolling the papers/parchments/tablets containing written matter yields what is called a book. Book is a container to secure the matter contained therein from being scattered, disintegrated or polluted-intermixed.

                                      The difference, between with meanings of articulated verbal statement and , a book is that the former is the sound one- meaning, which he throws out of his mouth. It scatters in air and eventually diminishes, though it may not vanish in reality. On the contrary, if the same thing which one has , orally stated is put in writing it will become safe and lasting. The psyche of oral utterances is also that it quickly spreads and scatters in the society. This is diametrically opposite to the concept and perception of Arabic Root and word . Therefore, an oral utterance, i.e. a statement thrown out of the mouth as sound, articulated in a particular shape of the words of a language of the listener, is not of permanent value in time and space, since only those could hear it in whose ears it had created vibrations.
                                      The basic objective of conjoining os of she-camel?s vulva is to avoid entrance of undesirable matter in the absence and without the will of the owner. People are bound to add matter of their own perceptions while transmitting oral utterances forward in time and place, the original words having lost in a short span of time. On the contrary, if that person had also put it in writing, his utterance would go into confinement in a conjoined and static state, and would reach people exactly in the words he had uttered from his mouth.
                                      The writing of the spoken matter results in inscription fixedly attached or engraved on paper or tablet and covers a space. Anything, letter, treatise, book having been put into writing attains the attribute of existence and permanence retaining its virginity i.e. originality and purity, being the same for everyone in time and space for understanding, perceiving the words/statement/utterances/hadith of the author. Hence, it conveys the meanings "to prescribe, ordain, make mandatory/ obligatory".

                                      The basic perception of Root " " is to conjoin and sew together, and ultimate objective of is to conjoin and sew people together making them a unit, homogeneous fraternity.
                                      A nation-fraternity comes into being only when there is a book, a social contract or a constitution. Let us admit affectionately that no language of the world can match the Arabic, the language of the Guide Lord of humanity, the Last Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, the elevated and praised one.

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                                        Noon_waalqalami
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        You know he has not even started expounding on numerology, yet you have made up your mind already, so what can I say except giveup

                                        Peace farida -- look at his first post; numerology head case...

                                        1234567891

                                        Lo and behold!

                                        +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+

                                        -1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-1-

                                        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

                                        If you want to discuss people of the book/scripture open a different thread use context as to which book.

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                                          farida
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Peace farida -- look at his first post; numerology head case...

                                          Peace Nun
                                          Are you denying; 7430 Over it are NINETEEN.???

                                          If you want to discuss people of the book/scripture open a different thread use context as to which book.

                                          Unless you understand what is al-kitaab it's no use opening a new thread and discussing the people of al-kitaab.
                                          salaam

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