Who is ideal translator in your consideration?
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No brother, I think, you have to wipe off your old understanding then only you may able to understand what Allah says. Just take guidance from Allah through alQuraan directly without other's interpretations, inshaAllah, you will see what I am saying. Just for an example Allah says
222
222 who made for you the earth a bed and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know.2174
2174 Indeed, they who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and exchange it for a small price - those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.Same word is used in both aayaat, and unfortunately, all who are not alQuraan alone understands in 222 as regular process and in 2174 as ended process long back. We should not forget that Allah is very precise on choosing words in alQuraan and every word is used willingly to show us its correct meaning. Hope you understand what I am saying.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanMy understanding is based on the principles of translation. You are not even determining the structure of the sentences and found it easy to link it with understanding based on hadith. Other literature and many translations are also not what I am saying.
is a form IV perfect verb. Flash descent - compact one time descent. Action completed and its effect continuing.
Both Ayah were absolute fact for the listener of 7th century and today since in those days whatever of the Book had been revealed at the point in time of this statement was put in compact one unit state.
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Except Wakas, no one has as yet disclosed his ideal translator and reasons for such preference by indicating the mode - approach adopted for translation.
For convenience I place below a synopsis of what man thought about translation.
Dictionaries and Encyclopedias suggest that Translation is the communication of the meaning of a source-language text by means of an equivalent target-language text. It is rendering, conversion or transference of something written in one language in the words of another language. It is transmission of texts over linguistic boundaries.
Origin of word translation is traced to a compound of Latin where it meant "to carry across" or "to bring across". Wikipedia says; "The Ancient Greek term for translation, (metaphrasis, "a speaking across", has supplied English with metaphrase (a "literal," or "word-for-word," translation) ? as contrasted with paraphrase ("a saying in other words", from , paraphrasis). Metaphrase corresponds, in one of the more recent terminologies, to "formal equivalence"; and paraphrase, to "dynamic equivalence."
Translation is an old activity that man has practiced since ancient times. Its necessity was felt because of variation and diversity in the languages of the peoples which in itself is a pointer-thought provoking existential for the knowledgeable people .
Scanning the encyclopedias and search on the Web will introduce us the thoughts and approaches considered suitable and adopted during various periods regarding translation. It primarily revolves around Ad Verbum vs. Ad Sensum according to the verbal expression vs. according to the meaning. John Dryden in seventeenth century identified three types of translation
Metaphrase involving "word by word" and "line by line" translation
Paraphrase involving "sense for sense" translation
Imitation involving variance from words and sense by abandoning the text of the original as the translator sees fit. . According to him, a translator
analyzes the message of the text in question into its simplest and structurally clearest forms in the source language
transfers it at this simple level to the target language
restructures it at this simple level to the target language which is most appropriate for the particular type of audience in mind.It encourages the translator to concentrate on what is important, and to restructure the form when it is necessary to convey the meanings. This approach is especially helpful in a situation where communication is difficult, because it is better to transmit at least the core content, rather than to produce a formal equivalent that does not work at all.
Translation by definition signifies the accurate rendering of a document into another language so that it is suitable for its intended purpose. Thereby, an effective translation must not only be complete and accurate but must also reflect the correct use of grammar, appropriate writing style, and terminology consistent with the subject. Therefore, in other words, the ideal translation should be
accurate reproducing as exactly as possible the meanings of original text
natural using natural forms of the target language in a way that is appropriate to the kind of text being translated
communicative expressing all aspects of the meaning in a way that is readily understandable to intended audience.Considering the meanings and purpose of translation, we can say that all reading is in fact translation. A native reading the text of his language is in fact transferring the meanings, perception and the message contained therein to his memory where it is written in a form different than the form of language he watched on paper or computer screen. Mere memorization of the text is not translation but is transcription in the meanings of writing out or lodging an exact copy of something in memory. Storage of longer text in long term or procedural memory and its retrieval is perhaps best achieved through mechanism of rehearsal.
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Sisters and brothers,
I am trying to retrieve from Qur'aan as to the best method and approach to translate and to evaluate the translated material. Please help as much as you can.
Superb system of transcription and translation
Interestingly, transcription and translation is a process that is taking place in every cell of ours and all organisms. The cell is the working site of genes bits of biochemical instructions found inside the cells of every organism from bacteria to humans. Genetics has informed us that organisms could not grow or function properly if the genetic information encoded in DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid a nucleic acid molecule) was not passed - transferred from cell to cell. DNA is packaged into structures called chromosomes within a cell. Every chromosome contains many genes, and each gene is located at a particular site, or locus. Within all organism cells divide to produce new cells, each of which requires the genetic information found in DNA.
The deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) molecule is the genetic blueprint for each cell and ultimately the blueprint that determines every characteristic of a living organism. The structure of the DNA molecule is described as as a double helix, somewhat like a spiral staircase with many individual steps.A molecule of DNA consists of two chains, strands composed of a large number of chemical compounds, called nucleotides, linked together to form a chain. These chains are arranged like a ladder that has been twisted into the shape of a winding staircase, called a double helix.
Genetic scientists use the same terms "transcription" and "translation" for the transfer of genetic code and then translation into the language of proteins. Transcription transfers the genetic code from a molecule of DNA to an intermediary molecule called Ribonucleic acid and involves production of a special kind of it called Messenger RNA.
Once transcription is complete and the genetic code has been copied onto Messenger RNA, the genetic code must be converted into the language of proteins. That is, the information coded in the four bases found in mRNA must be translated into the instructions encoded by the 20 amino acids used in the formation of proteins. This process is called translation by genetic scientists. . Redmond, WA Microsoft Corporation, 2005]
The volume of information stored in one human DNA might need one-million pages for its verbal transcription. Genetic scientists tell us that this data base contains information about some three billion "subjects". The estimated number of cells in human body are around 100 trillion.
The DNA of living things contains incredibly comprehensive information which is easy to read for the body system and to interpret it. Thereby it follows the prescribed code - regulation and instructions for conduct, operation, management, upkeep, proceeding or the like. Who is the source and writer of this comprehensively elaborate "information code"? Ordinary prudence will immediately say "the Creator" since there can be no information without a conscious intelligent sender who has desire and will of his own.
Musa said "Our Sustainer Lord is He Who gave shape and dimensions to each and every thing of His creation.
Afterwards the completion of intermediary processes He the Exalted prescribed regulation - information code for its course of conduct, proceedings and management.He is the One Who created all that exists. Thereat, He stretched-fashioned-equated-made it even.
Moreover, He the Exalted is the One Who destined things in measure-limit-scale-proportional relativity.
Thereby, He the Exalted prescribed regulation - information code for its course of conduct, proceedings and management.The fact remains that prescribing the regulation - information code for the course of conduct, proceedings and management exclusively rests upon Us.
The Verb and noun are made from Root " ". The basic perception infolded in the Root is to direct or guide to the way or cause to take, or follow, a right way or course or direction. A way, course, method, mode, or manner, of acting, or conduct, or proceeding or the like. It signifies regulation - information code for the right course of conduct and proceedings.
This Alhuda information code in relation to matter and cells are the governing and regulatory instructions for their functioning. For our convenience we may call them "laws of nature" that exist prior to and independent of their discovery and formulation by us. But like the originator of any information code, the man too is conscious, autonomous and has will of his own. He is however a created entity and is not his self-creator. Therefore, he is also in need of an information code. What could be the best communication keeping in view the nature of his creation and that how is it conveyed by his Creator?
It is a fact that We have created the Man, the living humanity, in his present state from a sub-set of single sperm. Its characteristic feature is that it is a mixture-gathering-concentration of multiple cluster of two things-pairs.
Purposely, We keep subjecting the Man to exposure trials. Therefore, We have rendered him a listening and observing person.These two features of man necessitate that Alhuda the information code for him should be verbal and communicated orally and/or as a written text which he could observe. Man was informed while being descended as a self governing entity of will to the Earth
We said "You go down out of this place jointly-together.
Take note of sub-classifications; whenever shall come to you people guidance-guide from Me,
thereat, whoever would have followed in letter and spirit My Guidance;
thereby, fear shall not overshadow-haunt such category of people.
Neither will they have a cause to grieve".He the Exalted said "You both go down to Earth jointly departing from this place-Paradise.
Some of you people will be acting as enemy for some others.
Thereby, when Guidance-Guide comes to you people from Me,
thereat, whoever affectionately inclined himself to act upon My Guidance in letter and spirit-such manner that nothing else influences in between,
thereby, having acted on My Guidance neither would he go stray-neglectful-unrewarded nor would he face trouble-difficulty-inconvenience".This promise was fulfilled
The people used to be a singular harmonious unit-group.
For reason of emergence of differences-division-people enslaved by conjectural stories , Allah the Exalted appointed as Revivalists the Chosen and Elevated Allegiants.
They were given the responsibility-assignment as those who assure-pronounce-guarantee glad tidings and cause cautioning and awakening.
And He the Exalted sent certain Book along with all of them incorporating infallible facts.
The purpose was that it the Book might decide-adjudge amongst people of that society in matters in which they mutually differed.It is a fact that We had certainly sent Our Messengers with distinct unprecedented displays
And We had sent certain book along with all of them the Messengers.
And We sent the Criterion - the Weighing Scale for ad judgment, evaluation and discerning truth from conjecture and falsehood.
The objective of communicating the Book was that the people might establish and maintain a system of equity and justice.Like the transference of Genetic code in DNA through the courtesy of Messenger RNA to the populace of cells, Alhuda the information code was conveyed to peoples through the elevated Messengers of Allah the Exalted as a verbal message inscribed in written text - the Book.
Take note that We did not send any a messenger with the Message-Book except in the language of his nation to whom he was sent. The objective was that he might make explicitly evident for them that which they must avoid.
Aforetimes, the Messengers and the Information Code was sent to various peoples - nations in the form of certain book written in the language of certain nation. Thereby, there was no issue about translating the information as it were not meant for crossing the linguistic boundaries.
..............................................After this we will enter into an era of universal information system --Universal Messenger and Universal Book that needs translation.
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In my opinion, the ideal translater is God.
None of the translations of the Koran that exist is accurate.
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Peace justamuslim,
True, but unless you know Arabic you rely on translators anyway. However, God may guide you to the best translation.
If there is a disputable topic in Quran I read several different translations as well as take a little look at the Arabic passage.
I must admit that the freeminds translation is the one I use the most and I hardly ever take a look in the translations from the sectarian scholars with lots of parentheses and irrelevant footnotes.
Apart from that I use literal translations and try to figure out the meaning on my own. And I look at the context to correct mainstream interpretations. Still, no matter what you do it is all up to how one as individual interprets things. But there should of course be possible to reach a consensus as there is only one Message.
If there is a mainstream translation I use it is Muhammad Asad or my old Abdullah Yusuf Ali.
I wish that some of the skilled Quran readers here, who have revealed the Quranic interpretation errors, would write a translation filled with the revised verses so I had some more up-to-date Quran with the Truth and not filled with wife beatings or polygamy or nonsense like the "ants of the valley".
It will also help when my son reaches a literate age. I do not want my son to read such nonsense.
Sorry for my usual rambling, hope I did not drive you crazy.
God bless you
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nonsense like the "ants of the valley".
Anything that does not come to the sense of an individual it becomes nonsense. This is not the way of looking at things. Pl first read about the ants and google as to what man now knows about them about talking aspect. And then decide whether the information given long time back has substance in it or not.
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In my opinion, the ideal translater is God.
None of the translations of the Koran that exist is accurate.
Allah the Exalted is the sender of the information through the Messenger in the best way rendering it easy to comprehend and translate. It now rests with the recepient as to how he deals with the given information.
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Peace Mazhar,
Sorry about saying nonsense about what others believe. I thought there was a consensus that the passages with Solomon were misinterpreted. Noshirk gave me a good explanation of what these verses were about and they seemed to make better sense than the one about ants.
Why I said nonsense is because the verses did not seem to relate to ants as traditionally understood but something else. The whole story about Solomon and his encounter with the queen of Sheba came out as quite misinterpreted. I cannot give you the thread it was discussed in unfortunately.
God bless you
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Peace Mazhar,
Sorry about saying nonsense about what others believe. I thought there was a consensus that the passages with Solomon were misinterpreted. Noshirk gave me a good explanation of what these verses were about and they seemed to make better sense than the one about ants.
Why I said nonsense is because the verses did not seem to relate to ants as traditionally understood but something else. The whole story about Solomon and his encounter with the queen of Sheba came out as quite misinterpreted. I cannot give you the thread it was discussed in unfortunately.
God bless you
Salamun alaika,
The Book conveys an information. If somebody tries to perceive it according to his own presuppositions or understanding earlier held by abandoning the original words of information it is one's own choice. However, others will not accept it since original words of information sent in the Book are not in correspondence to it. And this too is at the discretion of an individual recepient to treat some information in the sense in which it is conveyed as erroneous, nonsense etc.
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Assalamao alaikum,
Who is ideal translator in your consideration?
Encouraged by the fact that many members of this forum do study Qur'an rather critically, and certainly prefer one translator over others, I have put this question.
The purpose of study is to find about your ideal translator as to the theory and approach he adopted for giving his translation of Qur'aan.
Therefore, if we say, for example, Layeth is the ideal translator, we should explore his approach.
Please name your ideal translator alongwith his preferential theory and approach of translation.I think we are starting to swerve off subject and need to get back to Mazhars
original question, and that is "Who is ideal translator in your consideration"
I think Mazhar is asking who is your ideal "human" translator.If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come
down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who
believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve,
they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."peace
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Assalamao alaikum,
Who is ideal translator in your consideration?
Encouraged by the fact that many members of this forum do study Qur'an rather critically, and certainly prefer one translator over others, I have put this question.
Translation is an old activity that man has practiced since ancient times. Its necessity was felt because of variation and diversity in the languages of the peoples which in itself is a pointer-thought provoking existential for the knowledgeable people .
Complete literature is available on web and encyclopedias about translation theories and approaches considered suitable and adopted during various periods regarding translation.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation
Just google books will also be available.The purpose of study is to find about your ideal translator as to the theory and approach he adopted for giving his translation of Qur'aan.
Therefore, if we say, for example, Layeth is the ideal translator, we should explore his approach.
Please name your ideal translator alongwith his preferential theory and approach of translation.
Salaamun alayka,
I prefer translations which are bracket free and no insertions of words that are not there and no footnotes.
From the known translators I think Pickthall and FM are relatively good ones and Ahmed Raza Khan (so much brackets), R Khalifa (so much footnotes) and yours (I am sorry to say so) are the worst.Salaam,
Bender -
I have come across many idiotic remarks and viewpoints on this site. . . but this really takes the biscuit. Quran is book in Arabic - hence it is understandable and translateable. . . as have been done repeatedly.
"And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, , are but an inventor ." But most of them do not know."
This verse in no way counters this.
Salaamun alayka,
That is because your knowledge of The Quran is not on his level.
Salaam,
Bender -
For me, there are no perfect translations until now.
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I think we are starting to swerve off subject and need to get back to Mazhars
original question, and that is "Who is ideal translator in your consideration"
I think Mazhar is asking who is your ideal "human" translator.If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come
down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who
believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve,
they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."peace
Thanks
Yes. It is evident that And Allah the Exalted has not sent Qur'aan in the style of writings on Rosetta stone. Thereby, it has to be translated by human beings.
I also requested to tell me the style and approach one's ideal translator followed. -
For me, there are no perfect translations until now.
There is no such thing called "perfect" when it is related to translation. Translation means to convert text of language A to the text of language B. Thereby, it is only an ideal in the meaning of best example of a translation with reference to accuracy, faithfullness and transparency.
Therefore, just evaluate which translator has adopted best approach to remain as near to the original text as is humanly possible.
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Salaamun alayka,
I prefer translations which are bracket free and no insertions of words that are not there and no footnotes.
From the known translators I think Pickthall and FM are relatively good ones and Ahmed Raza Khan (so much brackets), R Khalifa (so much footnotes) and yours (I am sorry to say so) are the worst.Salaam,
BenderSalamun alaika,
Please take a little more time in studying translation theories. You might find that what you call insertions are but the normal way of transferring that content of the original text which is embedded but is not visible to that eye who does not know the original language.
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Salamun alaika,
Please take a little more time in studying translation theories. You might find that what you call insertions are but the normal way of transferring that content of the original text which is embedded but is not visible to that eye who does not know the original language.
Salaam,
I've noticed as well, well at least in Abdel Haleem's translation but I think in other translations as well, that sometimes the brackets are there for readability or to explain what a pronoun might refer to. There is also the point that the whole translation is an interpretation, and sometimes the most controversial verses or topics such as 434 do not have a bracket for the most controversial part.
Other points raised on this thread If the footnotes are written to explain the translations a bit more, I find them helpful. It doesn't mean I agree with them, but I can find out if the translator has drawn about a particular hadith, historical context, how the translation may differ from others and cross referencing with similar verses.
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Salamun alaika,
Please take a little more time in studying translation theories. You might find that what you call insertions are but the normal way of transferring that content of the original text which is embedded but is not visible to that eye who does not know the original language.
Salaamun alaika,
I can understand some insertions as without them the translations does not read smoothly in the translated language. But I am talking about these kind of insertions
AHMED RAZA KHAN
201 Ta-Ha.* (O dear Prophet Mohammed ? peace and blessings be upon him) (Alphabets of the Arabic language ? Allah and to whomever He reveals know their precise meanings.)
202 We have not sent down this Qur?an upon you (O dear Prophet Mohammed ? peace and blessings be upon him) for you to fall into hardship! (Either because he used to pray at length during the night or because he was distressed due to the disbelievers not accepting faith.)
hypno no comments needed for this "translation".MAZHAR
201 Ta Ha
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,RED How do you translate 1587? The Grand Grand Quran? 1587
GREEN There are hunderds of ayaats where the word rasuul is used, I am prety sure it was not forgotten in this verse. If the ayaat wanted to adress the messenger then I think the ayaat would be something like this "yaayuha al-rasulu, We have not communicated/sent the Qur'aan..."
BLUE please take a look at some examples from the same chapter (FM translation)
2011 So when he came to it he was called "O Moses."
2017 "And what is in your right hand O Moses?"
2019 He said "Cast it down O Moses."
2036 He said "You have been given what you asked O Moses."
2049 He said "So who is the lord of you both O Moses?"
2057 He said "Have you come to us to take us out of our land with your magic O Moses?"
2065 They said "O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down."
2077 And We inspired to Moses "Take My servants out, and strike for them a path through the sea that is dry. You shall not fear being overtaken, nor be concerned."
2080 O Children of Israel, We have saved you from your enemy, and We summoned you at the right side of the mount, and We sent down to you manna and quail.
2086 So Moses returned to his people angry and disappointed. He said "My people, did not your Lord promise you a good promise? Has the waiting for the pledge been too long, or did you want that the wrath of your Lord be upon you? Thus you broke the promise with me."
2090 And Aaron said to them before "My people, you are being tested with it. Your Lord is the Almighty, so follow me and obey my command!"
2092 He said "O Aaron, what prevented you when you saw them being astray?"
2094 He said "O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I was concerned that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders."
2095 He said "So what do you have to say O Sumerian?"
The Quran is always very clear if someone or some group is adressed specific.Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
I've noticed as well, well at least in Abdel Haleem's translation but I think in other translations as well, that sometimes the brackets are there for readability or to explain what a pronoun might refer to. There is also the point that the whole translation is an interpretation, and sometimes the most controversial verses or topics such as 434 do not have a bracket for the most controversial part.
Other points raised on this thread If the footnotes are written to explain the translations a bit more, I find them helpful. It doesn't mean I agree with them, but I can find out if the translator has drawn about a particular hadith, historical context, how the translation may differ from others and cross referencing with similar verses.
Salamun alaiki,
Thanks - many times for your sentence in red. It is a wonderful point for transerence of the text of Qur'aan into the target language. Translation and interpretation must both be applied for its transference in the target language
Considerable part of the Qur'aan is speech; an address to second person - the receipients of information in Arabic. Here the interpretation would mean that there is a third person - not knowing Arabic for whom the spoken content is to be interpreted by the interpreter.
I got hold of this
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MAZHAR
201 Ta Ha
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,RED How do you translate 1587? The Grand Grand Quran? 1587
GREEN There are hunderds of ayaats where the word rasuul is used, I am prety sure it was not forgotten in this verse. If the ayaat wanted to adress the messenger then I think the ayaat would be something like this "yaayuha al-rasulu, We have not communicated/sent the Qur'aan..."
Salamun alaika, Bender
Perhaps you missed the post 36 by peace......
You are well aware that pronouns are always definite referring to a known and identified person. The pronoun in Ayah is "Ka" second person, masculine, singular. Its transference by "you" alone might not suffice. In translation that person needs to mentioned.
Even in sentence you said "yaayuha al-rasulu" while translating, the name of the Messenger addressed can be mentioned since it has a built in pronoun referring to a known human being.