Who is ideal translator in your consideration?
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Salamun alaika, Bender
Perhaps you missed the post 36 by peace......
You are well aware that pronouns are always definite referring to a known and identified person. The pronoun in Ayah is "Ka" second person, masculine, singular. Its transference by "you" alone might not suffice. In translation that person needs to mentioned.
Even in sentence you said "yaayuha al-rasulu" while translating, the name of the Messenger addressed can be mentioned since it has a built in pronoun referring to a known human being.
Salaamun alayka,
No I did not miss the post of supportpeacenotwar. Ofcourse every translation is the interpretation of the translator.
But you asked who the ideal translator is, well imo the translator who tries to be as much as possible 1 to 1 in their translation. I found yours and A.R. Khan translation not fitting my minimum criterion.Besides this I find it almost impossible to learn The Quranic arabic from your translation simply because it's not clean.
Take a look at the freeminds translation for the same verse
202 We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
It is a lot easier for me to connect every english word with it's arbic counterpart without even knowing a single arabic letter.
In this way I can compare very quickly similar arabic words and structures and how they are translated in other ayaats. And because of this I can build my own interpetation of the arabic words without even knowing a single arabic word.
But with your translation it is almost immpossible to do this, because you insert so much words that are not there in arabic.
just take a look again at your translation of the the verse
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,RED Why? I do not see any reason for this.
And that the "you" is Mohammed, is ofcourse your interpretation which you are forcing it to the reader, and that is imo not a good thing for a translator to do.Salaam,
Bender -
Salamun alaika, Bender
If that be the case who is "you" in the translation? You can assume it is for you i.e. bender and I can take it for myself. In English "you" is every one, a woman, a man, two women, billion women, many men; many women and men collectively. English "you" refers to person or people unspecified refers to an unspecified person or people in general
Arabic is different. And that difference must find reflection in the translation. And the text is in the form of a speech; pronoun "ka" is for second person, who is just one particular man not unspecified person or people in general. It needs interpretation to let the non Arab understand what the First person actually said to the second person and as to who is he.
By the way don't you think this English sentence itself is ambiguous in English language?
We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
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Salaam,
I actually think its good to have different types of translations. Some take it every arabic word for the english counterpart and some try to achieve a more poetic translation. One thing about using a translation is that I like to check several so having a diverse range of translations, I personally find the range of translations helpful. Although I may prefer one that is more readable for modern audiences, the best scenario is to compare translations whenever possible.
Salaamun alayka,
No I did not miss the post of supportpeacenotwar. Ofcourse every translation is the interpretation of the translator.
Salaam,
You say of course every translation is an interpretation of the translator. Well that's my point about the whole brackets etc issue, it might not matter how wordy or the brackets contained in the translation because some of the most contentious verses or parts of verses don't have brackets. I gave 434 as an example. The issues with the translations come down, as you may already know, to appreciating the entire message of a verse, set of verses, Surah or the whole Quran. I'm just stating that to clarify my position.
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Using bracket or not depending on the situation.
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,
Because it's clear that word you, pointing Muhammad (pbuh), so the bracket can be occured.
example of the bracket which can mislead verse's original meaning.
" And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them , although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad Peace be upon him ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers."(Moshin Khan 289).
Just try bracket it off, so the meaning will be different.
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It is really easy to get out of the need for translation. Learn the language. Surely if "Quran alone" is of the utmost then learning it is a must. Especially if you do not rely on following someone else's qualified opinion.
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Salamun alaika, Bender
If that be the case who is "you" in the translation? You can assume it is for you i.e. bender and I can take it for myself. In English "you" is every one, a woman, a man, two women, billion women, many men; many women and men collectively. English "you" refers to person or people unspecified refers to an unspecified person or people in general
Arabic is different. And that difference must find reflection in the translation. And the text is in the form of a speech; pronoun "ka" is for second person, who is just one particular man not unspecified person or people in general. It needs interpretation to let the non Arab understand what the First person actually said to the second person and as to who is he.
Salaamun alaika,
I agree about the usage of "you" in english, but most of time from the sentence or from the next or previous ayaat it can be derived what kind of "you" is used.
In this case 203 makes it clear what kind of "you" is used in 202. Not only in the english translation but also in arabic. Note that the "KA" is missing in 203 but instead "liman" is used.
I hope you get what I am saying.By the way don't you think this English sentence itself is ambiguous in English language?
We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
Well my english is very bad, so I don't know if this is a fluent english sentence or not.
What is according to you ambiguous about it?Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
You say of course every translation is an interpretation of the translator. Well that's my point about the whole brackets etc issue, it might not matter how wordy or the brackets contained in the translation because some of the most contentious verses or parts of verses don't have brackets. I gave 434 as an example. The issues with the translations come down, as you may already know, to appreciating the entire message of a verse, set of verses, Surah or the whole Quran. I'm just stating that to clarify my position.
Salaam,
What kind of extra information do you like to see for 434 in a translation?
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
What kind of extra information do you like to see for 434 in a translation?
Salaam,
BenderSalaam,
I am a little confused, I didn't say I wanted to see any extra information for 434 in translation. And I am not stating that I want extra information in the the translation itself. But an explanation for the translation in footnotes or in a companion book can help the reader understand the interpretation of the message by the translator. I find this helpful personally and if other people don't then that's not a problem because its personal preference. We are all allowed to give our own perspectives here.
I wrote that post to help you in order to clarify my position. I'm stating that the brackets themselves are not the only issue, there is the whole point about interpretation of words and verses where problems are in the words in the translation that are not even in brackets.
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Using bracket or not depending on the situation.
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,
Because it's clear that word you, pointing Muhammad (pbuh), so the bracket can be occured.
Salaam,
I am sorry but I do not agree. There is not a single hint that the "you" in 202 is Mohammed. I think 203 actually explains who the "you" is in 202. If it was adressing specific Mohammed then imo 203 would have been different.
example of the bracket which can mislead verse's original meaning.
" And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them , although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad Peace be upon him ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers."(Moshin Khan 289).
Just try bracket it off, so the meaning will be different.
imo there is absolutely no difference between the brackets in 289 and 202 they both want to force an understanding to the reader and in both cases the understanding is imo not correct.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
I am a little confused, I didn't say I wanted to see any extra information for 434 in translation.
Salaam,
Then I think I misunderstood you again
what did you mean with "and sometimes the most controversial verses or topics such as 434 do not have a bracket for the most controversial part"
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaamun alaika,
I agree about the usage of "you" in english, but most of time from the sentence or from the next or previous ayaat it can be derived what kind of "you" is used.
In this case 203 makes it clear what kind of "you" is used in 202. Not only in the english translation but also in arabic. Note that the "KA" is missing in 203 but instead "liman" is used.
I hope you get what I am saying.Well my english is very bad, so I don't know if this is a fluent english sentence or not.
What is according to you ambiguous about it?Salaam,
BenderKa is a pronoun identifying a known second person, masculine, singular. In "le-man" the pronoun is a relative pronoun for third person, singular, masculine. "He who" because relative pronoun needs a relative clause to specify him.
We have not compactly communicated the Qur'aan to you the Messenger that you might burden yourself with heaviness of mind and heart.
The objective of its communication is but to render it a verbal reminder-frequented source for him who is mindfully apprehensive of eventuality.Ambiguity in a sentence means that it can be perceived as conveying two different meanings and the reader is unable to know the intent of the speaker. The advanced level of an information for a receipient is to know the intent and objective of the speaker.
Read the sentence in isolation twice and see what you perceive it is conveying.
We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
It signifies as if the Qur'aan was not sent and the objective and the resultant effect is "so you may suffer".
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Using bracket or not depending on the situation.
202 We have not communicated/sent the Grand Qur'aan to you the Messenger for the purpose that you are put in difficulty and hardship,
Because it's clear that word you, pointing Muhammad (pbuh), so the bracket can be occured.
example of the bracket which can mislead verse's original meaning.
" And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them , although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad Peace be upon him ) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers."(Moshin Khan 289).
Just try bracket it off, so the meaning will be different.
the overlook in translation is that the subject of the verb is "a book" in nominative case and absolute state. Its specification - adjectival transcription is embedded/elided but conspicuously apparent since subject of a verb is not an indefinite noun. Translator knows specifically the characteristic feature of that book which is the subject of the verb since he was supposed to heave first read the entire book before embarking upon translating it.
The third person pronoun refers to the Posterity of Iesraa'eel about whom is this discourse.
Know the fact that as soon a book came to them characterized by transcription in Arabic Qur'aan, from Allah the Exalted; they the Posterity of Iesraa'eel refused to accept it.
This Book is the Testifier-Affirmer-Certifier-Sanctifier of that which they already had with them.
And in the earlier time line they were desperately praying-aspiring for comprehensive victory over those who were the Non Believers.
Thereby, as soon that came to them they did recognize it. But they refused to accept it.
Consequently, the Curse and Condemnation of Allah the Exalted is hovering upon those who have deliberately and persistently refused.Word by Word analysis 289
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Ka is a pronoun identifying a known second person, masculine, singular. In "le-man" the pronoun is a relative pronoun for third person, singular, masculine. "He who" because relative pronoun needs a relative clause to specify him.
We have not compactly communicated the Qur'aan to you the Messenger that you might burden yourself with heaviness of mind and heart.
The objective of its communication is but to render it a verbal reminder-frequented source for him who is mindfully apprehensive of eventuality.Ambiguity in a sentence means that it can be perceived as conveying two different meanings and the reader is unable to know the intent of the speaker. The advanced level of an information for a receipient is to know the intent and objective of the speaker.
Salaamun alayka,
202 and 203 are connected (note the "ILLA" in 203), so what exactly has 203 to do with the burden of the Mohammed in 202.
Read the sentence in isolation twice and see what you perceive it is conveying.
We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
It signifies as if the Qur'aan was not sent and the objective and the resultant effect is "so you may suffer".
I see what you mean. Probably it could have been written in a better way, but not sure how.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaamun alayka,
202 and 203 are connected (note the "ILLA" in 203), so what exactly has 203 to do with the burden of the Mohammed in 202.
I see what you mean. Probably it could have been written in a better way, but not sure how.
Salaam,
BenderSalamun alaika,
If you give a second thought to both of your observations under two different quotes, the point might become evident.
Illa is for restriction and exception. Illa as exception is of two types when the excepted could be of same or different kind from which exception is made. When it is of different kind it is always in accusative case as is is the case here of verbal noun.
As restrictive particle it does not play grammatical role.
The purpose and intent for communication of Qur'aan is conveyed in the information embedded in the words of these two Ayahs. Negation is that the purpose is certainly not that you might burden yourself. The purpose is only to render it ----------.
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I am sorry but I do not agree. There is not a single hint that the "you" in 202 is Mohammed. I think 203 actually explains who the "you" is in 202. If it was adressing specific Mohammed then imo 203 would have been different.
So, who's the you in 203 according to you @Bender?
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Salamun alaika,
If you give a second thought to both of your observations under two different quotes, the point might become evident.
Illa is for restriction and exception. Illa as exception is of two types when the excepted could be of same or different kind from which exception is made. When it is of different kind it is always in accusative case as is is the case here of verbal noun.
As restrictive particle it does not play grammatical role.
Salaamun alayka,
BLUE "ILLA" is here not really an exception. When it goes with "MA" it can hardly be called an exception. I see "exception" < "the whole", but here the "exception" is actually the only goal. So not sure if we can call it an exception.
The purpose and intent for communication of Qur'aan is conveyed in the information embedded in the words of these two Ayahs. Negation is that the purpose is certainly not that you might burden yourself. The purpose is only to render it ----------.
Who is the red highlited according to you?
and who is "liman" in 203 according to you and what is their relation?Salaam,
Bender -
Salaamun alayka,
BLUE "ILLA" is here not really an exception. When it goes with "MA" it can hardly be called an exception. I see "exception" < "the whole", but here the "exception" is actually the only goal. So not sure if we can call it an exception.
Who is the red highlited according to you?
and who is "liman" in 203 according to you and what is their relation?Salaam,
BenderSalamun alaika,
Please reconcile your thoughts by looking at what you suggested that the "you" of 2002 is the person who is "leman" in 2003. Even in English rendition, it is void of any sensible information. Exception and restrictive particles set two entities apart and differentiated from each other.
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Salamun alaika,
Please reconcile your thoughts by looking at what you suggested that the "you" of 2002 is the person who is "leman" in 2003. Even in English rendition, it is void of any sensible information. Exception and restrictive particles set two entities apart and differentiated from each other.
Salaamun alayka,
Yes ILLA sets two (or more) entities apart BUT there is ALWAYS a relationship between the entities by definition.
Let me try to put in other terms, maybe I am not expressing myself in a clear way.
"you" in 202 can only be one of "liman yakhsha group" in 203.
with "one" I do not mean just 1 specific person but every person who fits "liman yakhsha".btw you did not answer my question.
If "you" in 202 is Mohammed, then what is the relationship between his "burden" and "tathkiratan liman yakhsha"?Salaam,
Bender -
Salaamun alayka,
Yes ILLA sets two (or more) entities apart BUT there is ALWAYS a relationship between the entities by definition.
Let me try to put in other terms, maybe I am not expressing myself in a clear way.
"you" in 202 can only be one of "liman yakhsha group" in 203.
with "one" I do not mean just 1 specific person but every person who fits "liman yakhsha".btw you did not answer my question.
If "you" in 202 is Mohammed, then what is the relationship between his "burden" and "tathkiratan liman yakhsha"?Salaam,
BenderEarlier it was explained that exceptions are of two types; same kind and not same kind.
Information in the First Ayah is confirmation of communication of Qur'aan.
The desire, intent and objective of this communication is NOT that "you" to whom the Qur'aan is communicated might burden "yourself". There is a second person masculine pronoun in the verb "anta" meaning "you" and the verb is in subjunctive mood.
The objective of the communication is restricted by Illa to serve as a verbal reminder-frequented source for him - any unidentified person who is mindfully apprehensive of eventuality.
Relative pronoun does not refer to A B C person but to that person who is specified by the following relative linkage clause for the relative pronoun. The pronoun in the linkage relative clause which is a verb has third person mascuine pronoun referring to Man.