Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
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Agreed with zone
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Your argument is good @drfazl, but more good if you say this debate as a "study".
We debate each other, doesn't means we hated each other, like a debate in a seminar, it doesnt mean the both sides are enemies in physically meaning, but they are enemies in term of ideals.Thats why each debate forum has a modearator like in this free-Firstly, do not mistake me I am arguing. May The Forgiving forgive me.
All the verses you have pointed out is not with regard to sexuality, but all the affairs involving your life with the community in amicable coexistence. Have you ever discussed and debated as only a study with all your members - father, mother, sisters and brothers and your in- laws about being nude in the family; and then in the community as to why we should wear clothes at all? If your answer is an 'yes' I am sure I am a misfit and an odd one out in this discussion or study - whatever.
Quran does not go into the details of explicit sexuality for Allah knows what befits any discussion or study and what befits not. Just a reminder for men of understanding.
drfazl
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There are evidences from both sides - that homosexuality is 'born' with and that it is a choice. But after having a look at both sides, I must agree that the overwhelming scientific evidence is towards the "choice" thing. Many of the initial studies, which were highly touted by the media as "proof" for a biological basis for homosexuality, have been contradicted by later, more thorough studies.
I find it interesting how desperately some people try to ignore some verses of the Quran because they don't like them... A straightforward verse is twisted using various layman logic and alternative meanings...
It's also interesting how they accuse us of following the "traditionalists" and being "close minded" or not being able to "free" ourselves of traditional teachings. This is a fallacy in itself. Not all traditional teachings are wrong. Most of the teachings of Sunni/Sunnah al Jamah are correct and can be reconciled with following the Quran, in fact, if not all.
Some people argue it's "natural" and "happens in animals". Some animals also eat their offspring. Do you suggest the same to be done by humans?
We're humans for a reason. We're the most intelligent animal on earth for a reason. The Quran came to us, and not chimpanzees, for a reason.
I'm sure if enough research went to paedophila.. or incest.. or even bestiality, some fringe group of scientists would come with "you're born with it"! Let's not hope these things also becomes as accepted as homosexuality today!
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PS my post is basically addressing people like sonny.
If you think that homosexuality is sick/satanic filth then you will discount any study that would suggest that some people are born homosexual. and you will find "verses" in the scriptures to support your views. I am sure people will find verses in the Koran justifying killing homosexuals.
From coming across homosexuals, I am not as certain as some here that homosexuality is a choice. I grew up in India for the first 10 years of my life in the 70's. One of the kids who I played with was different - the way he stood, talked and his manners. Of course, other kids teased him calling him names. He didn't come out and play with us much. I didn't understand lot of things back then but I always remember him.
I now live in a small christian town in United States where homophobia is very prevalent. One of the pastors young teen is gay. If homosexuality is a choice, why would any teenager "choose" to be ostracized by his family, his classmates, harassed, bullied, discriminated against, not accepted? Why would teens and young adults choose to be homosexuals when they are surrounded by heterosexuals and finding a homosexual partner in the communities they live is next to impossible?
Have you all who harbor such hatred and anger towards homosexuals thought about that? If homosexuality is a sickness, why would a teenager raised in good Christian family in town choose this kind of sickness?
Do you all know that homosexuals are four times more to attempt suicide?
I am sorry but I find hypocrites claiming that they worship God when what they worship is their hatred, arrogance, ego and ignorance. If homosexuality is indeed a sin, have you thought about how you can help save a soul from hellfire? Instead you would much rather call homosexuals satanic filth adding to the pain and suffering that these kids already feel as they are confused, lost and isolated.
Because of how they are perceived, a lot of homosexuals don't talk about their sexuality and some go on getting married having heterosexual relationship struggling in silence. You guys can't think about helping someone who is suffering and struggling?
When I was a kid, I asked my mom why are there poor people? Why would God create poor people? What my mom said always stuck with me. God tests us by how we treat and take care of people.
If indeed God created some people gay, the greater test is on me. I would rather help a kid struggling with his sexuality letting him know God is loving, caring, forgiving than make him feel worse about himself. I would rather save a soul than lead a soul to kill himself. If homosexuality is a choice, I would rather try to understand her choices and help make better choices.
This is the Islam that i choose to follow. so, no i do not follow your islam of hatred and abusive language.
Let's not forget, God is also a member of this forum and everything we say and do is all being permanently recorded in God's tablet. What matters at the end is what God has to say and we will all know of God's post at the end.
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Peace,
You cannot be two without God being the third, nor three without God being the fourth and so on. If you sit in a room you should always think as if God is sitting in a chair next to you.
God bless you
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Even animal they lead a normal life and have production. Man became worst than animal. We can not see any gay animals around. Now they have Honorable Gay Minister too and they too boast themselves. Lesbian Ministers too.. Ugly People...
How Prophet luth might have Prayed ..."Oh Lord save us from these people!!!...".. In fact we like visit European countries... Now dropped the idea. The Lord will make our living as Green with Good People and Godly matured nature people.
We need the Place where People like Minded ...After reading Drfazl reply I changed my context... Oh Lord Make us to believe YOU only. Make our heart Sufficient with YOU.Unless YOU help us we could not achieve that state of mind.
This place will become a heaven by... God willing
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Listen, according to QURAN prophet Lot(Lut) said to people of Sodom next
here you have many international translations
781
Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."
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You approach men lustfully in place of women. You are a people who exceed all bounds.'
781
In preference to women you satisfy your lust with men. Indeed you are a people who are guilty of excess."
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"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
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`You indeed approach men rather than (your) women to satisfy your lust. The fact is that you are a people who transgress all limits.?
But they decided to not listen to him and God told Lot to leave the city, shortly after city was destroyed.
Read THIS
Quran clearly says that homosexuality is forbidden so please stop with nonsense like muslim gays and stuff. Its forbidden in Islam PeriodSalam Sonny
I am trying to help you to scrutinize your own arguments. You keep posting the same verses over and over again.....There were some other questions I had for you, would you mind answering them?
Before you think again that I am some USA influnced non muslim sick person let me tell you my story.
I never liked homosexuality. I think it goes against the very essence of nature and I find it disturbing that such a minority could get so much attention. Imagine my horror when my sister told the family she was gay!
I was so angry with her and I dove head first into the Quran to show her that even Allah does not like homosexuality. After all, every muslim I knew said it was haram and they even hung homosexuals according to Sharia.To my utter disappointment I could not find any verse that told me my sister was going against Allah. Sure I found the story of Lot but I found it together with other stories about other communities that were destroyed for numerous other kinds of behaviours. Behaviours that are not "haram" in the muslim communities today and certainly do not carry the death penalty. I also realized (when reading the surahs from beginning to end) that what happened in the past was in the past. The guidance for the muslim prophet Muhammed for the future was different. His guidance was to forgive and ignore. I could not find any verse directed to Muhammed nor the muslim john doe to ban people from believing in Allah just because they were homosexual.
I could not find any behaviour in homosexuals that would make them disbelievers, hypocrites or liars. I could not find any gay person anywhere that had actively chosen to become gay (meaning he or she was merely following a trend). That left me with the choice that either Allah created them that way or the parents/community has made them that way. When I realized there were homosexuals in communities that very strongly do not tolerate this sexual orientation (Like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan) I came to the conclusion that it was not parents/society, it was the act of Allah.So in my quest to prove my sister wrong I found evidence against my own belief. I found although hard to admit that I was completely wrong and I have been duped by ignorant people that use religion as a tool for punishment and banishment. Some points I found were
• A verse that says allegorical stories should not be taken literally
• A verse saying it is an aggression to approach men instead of women in a state of lust (so if you are "lustful" it is better to approach women)
• Stories about communities that were punished by Allah for a variety of reasons which happened a long time ago involving numerous prophets
• These numerous prophets did not one time tell the communities their behaviour was "haram" or forbidden. Instead they pleaded with them to follow the path of Allah but they were all ignored/banned/threatened to death.
• Many contradictions in the muslim community of today where they behave like communities that had been destroyed by Allah in the past
• Guidance to the last prophet to not fear when he encounters communities like the ones Allah has destroyed in the past
• Guidance to the last prophet to forgive and ignore such communities
• Allah is the creator of homosexuality. Just like he is the creator of alcohol and gambling. They can be used as tools of Shaytan but only as long as we allow him to do so. IMO Shaytan has used homosexuality as a tool, it has made us persecute and even kill people for something that is not their choice. Just like sister Just a muslim said. Living in a society that is completely against homosexuality would make any by-choice-homosexual stop with this behaviour, right? But how come many committ suicide instead? Does that seem like they have a choice?
I deeply regret that I even today have "problems" accepting homosexuality. But I do know now that my feelings are my own personal feelings. What Allah thinks is not the same so I will leave it up to him to be the judge. In the meanwhile I will respect and accept any kind of attitude or behaviour and be kind to people, no matter what their background is. As long as they are not oppressive/aggressive in nature I will not be against them.
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I was so angry with her and I dove head first into the Quran to show her that even Allah does not like homosexuality. After all, every muslim I knew said it was haram and they even hung homosexuals according to Sharia.
You clearly reject Quran just because you are trying to defend gays you know. People who made these translations are scholars of islam and ancient arabic language and who are you to say they are all wrong? Who are you man?
Lets say, even if Quran does not talk about homosexuality, according to your weird logic we are allowed to eat our own poop like pigs do just because is not stated in Quran!!!?? This is kindergarten logic
There is no such a thing as traditional muslim and new age muslim, you are muslim or you are not.
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Your sentece is not true.
The truth is there is no single Quranic verse that mention "same sex marriage", so Quran is neutral against it.Like laws regarding human picture , there are no single verse in Quran mention about it, so we drawing human or not, it's ok because there's no Quranic laws about it.
I was paraphrasing, it doesn't explicitly outlaw same sex marriage but it does define what marriage within the realms of faith is defined as - and that's between a man and a woman, right? Keep in mind I am just talking about "marriage" here.
Sorry but I don't understand your comparison to the drawing thing. I assume you're talking about the idolatry verses - The Quran defines what idolatry is, the mere drawing of pictures by itself isn't idolatry.
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You clearly reject Quran just because you are trying to defend gays you know. People who made these translations are scholars of islam and ancient arabic language and who are you to say they are all wrong? Who are you man?
There is no such a thing as traditional muslim and new age muslim, you are muslim or you are not.
Clearly, you believe in what you believe and no matter what evidence is brought forth, you will not hear. God hears everything and will judge us accordingly.
Although your post was directed to Emil, I will answer your question about who am I? I am a person who seeks God to increase my knowledge and explanation of the Koran. It is God who guides me and explains things - not scholars.
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PS my post is basically addressing people like sonny.
I am sorry but I find hypocrites claiming that they worship God when what they worship is their hatred, arrogance, ego and ignorance. If homosexuality is indeed a sin, have you thought about how you can help save a soul from hellfire? Instead you would much rather call homosexuals satanic filth adding to the pain and suffering that these kids already feel as they are confused, lost and isolated.When I was a kid, I asked my mom why are there poor people? Why would God create poor people? What my mom said always stuck with me. God tests us by how we treat and take care of people.
If indeed God created some people gay, the greater test is on me. I would rather help a kid struggling with his sexuality letting him know God is loving, caring, forgiving than make him feel worse about himself. I would rather save a soul than lead a soul to kill himself. If homosexuality is a choice, I would rather try to understand her choices and help make better choices.
This is the Islam that i choose to follow. so, no i do not follow your islam of hatred and abusive language.
My belief is Quite the same. I'd rather save than condemn. God might give you the same treatment as you treat others, a taste of your own medicine.... so play nice kids )
As it is written,
"...He will requite those who commit evil for their works, and will reward those who do Good with Goodness. (5133)P.S Homosexuality is not the only sinful thing perceived out there. Tyranny, corruption, and crime in my eyes, are worse offenses. Think Pharaoh, Hypocrites, and people of 'ad
How hypocritical for people to harbor hate and detestment for homosexuals, while not harboring the same for other offenses? The word is full of corruption, cheating and bloodshed. Please wake up from your Homophobia, there are worst people out there.
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Clearly, you believe in what you believe and no matter what evidence is brought forth, you will not hear. God hears everything and will judge us accordingly.
Although your post was directed to Emil, I will answer your question about who am I? I am a person who seeks God to increase my knowledge and explanation of the Koran. It is God who guides me and explains things - not scholars.
You reject Quran verses which clearly talk against homosexuality, you reject islamic scholars, you reject hadiths, actually is there anything that you don't reject?
I bet you support feminism also despite Quran verses which reject feminism.
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How hypocritical for people to harbor hate and detestment for homosexuals, while not harboring the same for other offenses? The word is full of corruption, cheating and bloodshed. Please wake up from your Homophobia, there are worst people out there.
I bet you talk about me ;D
Btw in my opinion people have right to be whatever they like to be, I dont care even if they start to marry animals, not my problem.
Thing that bothers me here is that some people, including you, actually trying to say that homosexuality is not forbidden in islam? I gave you verses which talk about this, I can give you more of them from previous scriptures like Torah, God was always against this so how can you say its allowed in islam despite all proof?I think killing people just because they are gay is sin and I'm against that, but to say that homosexuality is allowed in islam is blasphemy.
If you think that homosexuality is allowed in Islam than give me just ONE proof for your claims and I promise I will leave islam 4ever?.
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Peace @Sonny, are you already read my post in page 6?
as I know, you're need some correction in your intepretation.
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I bet you talk about me ;D
Btw in my opinion people have right to be whatever they like to be, I dont care even if they start to marry animals, not my problem.
Thing that bothers me here is that some people, including you, actually trying to say that homosexuality is not forbidden in islam? I gave you verses which talk about this, I can give you more of them from previous scriptures like Torah, God was always against this so how can you say its allowed in islam despite all proof?I think killing people just because they are gay is sin and I'm against that, but to say that homosexuality is allowed in islam is blasphemy.
If you think that homosexuality is allowed in Islam than give me just ONE proof for your claims and I promise I will leave islam 4ever?.
Peace be with you, Sonny.
I'm sure everyone here on this thread are against the idea of homosexuality, so please don't misunderstand. I think what people are trying to say is that, if we see a homosexual, we have no right to simply execute that individual as there is no law prescribed in the Quran concerning this matter. Instead of showing hatred against them, we can try to bring them back to the natural ways of life, i.e. to try to convert them into being heterosexuals through any sort of medical help or anything like that if it's possible. If nothing is possible, then we should leave it up to God to pass His judgement for them in the Day of Judgement.
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http//i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae179/vader1230/bth_bullshit.gif
This is solution for gay problem ==>> elektro voodoo
Homosexuals have been subject to attacks and some have been brutally beaten and killed. This is a terrible crime and if that's a joke, it is in no way humourous.
In terms of the confusion issue mentioned somewhere on here I can't say for sure but some may think they are homosexual or bisexual but they may not be because it is possible to be attracted to the same sex and when women or men oversexualise themselves, to be reminded of sexual urges. This does not make one homosexual or bisexual though. Just like a general apprehension and fear of something for example does not mean one has an actual phobia. Do we sometimes over-label ourselves?
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You clearly reject Quran just because you are trying to defend gays you know. People who made these translations are scholars of islam and ancient arabic language and who are you to say they are all wrong? Who are you man?
I haven't seen any scholar of islam and ancient arabic language on this forum, Sonny. I am not saying they are wrong because I am not talking to them, I am talking to you and you are not a scholar of islam or ancient arabic language. Are these scholars important to you? Are you following what they say? Still you haven't answered me any question that I asked you. Why is that? Are you afraid to make your own conclusion without a scholar's tafsir?
Lets say, even if Quran does not talk about homosexuality, according to your weird logic we are allowed to eat our own poop like pigs do just because is not stated in Quran!!!?? This is kindergarten logic
You never ate your own poop? By God you are one strange puppy, I thought everyone did that eat
If you want to eat poop, go ahead.........It will have absolutely no impact on my understanding of the Quran.
If it is such a grave sin to eat poop Allah will judge you, not me. I cannot in the name Islam tell you it is wrong......I could tell you in the name of medicine or in the name of etiquette that it absolutely foul, but I could never think you are a lesser muslim than me.There is no such a thing as traditional muslim and new age muslim, you are muslim or you are not.
But there is such a thing called stagnation and it is the killer of all religions. The Quran is very fundamental but it encompasses everything. It seems that Allah understands that people and generations are different. There is even a verse that confirms this "and we have made you into different nations and tribes so you may recognize eachother". Sounds familiar? Your scholars have successfully stopped time by sticking to old ideas that go against the very book they believe in. They have stuck their head in the sand for so long they have missed that Allah has changed the world. They have failed to do the job they are supposed to do and that is to make sure Islam is given the chance to progress along with people, not holding them back.............sorry offtopic
Please answer my questions.
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I gave you verses which talk about this, I can give you more of them from previous scriptures like Torah, God was always against this so how can you say its allowed in islam despite all proof?
Sonny my dear brother. Do you know that prophet Lot had sex with his daughters according to older scriptures? I would be careful to use other references than the Quran, otherwise your whole argument would be completely void.
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