Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France

Borakk

The Quran
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

The Bible
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Should I quote Hindu and Buddhist scriptures also if you still dont believe?!

You raise a very important point.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says " shall not lie with another man as with a woman, it is a toeba "abomination&quot" (Leviticus 1822).

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!

Azz

Peace @Azz.Oh yes, I have not yet answered your question, about comparasion with human picture.

Quran doesn't mentioning about human picture, this means Quran is neutral about it.
Quran doesn't mentioning about same sex marriage, this means Quran is neutral about it.

The verse 7189 is not talking about forbidding homosexual.Normaly and mostly, a man will married with woman, so that's why Quran only pointing out about hetero marriage regulations.

If you still confused about Luth's story, I'm already post my explanation in page 6.
Not all kind of homosexual or gay activities to be considered as lewdness.

Yes,If the debate only based on emotions and baseless assumption, there will be NO CLEAR ENDING.

My conclusion is

Not all homosexual categoried as lewdness, it's depend on situation n circumstances.
If Allah punish the gay, then why Allah created some male with female hormon levels.
In 780 Luth stated that Sodom did fahissya which never did by any humans before.This means fahissya is not homosexuality, because the homosexs already happened before Luth era, read in http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

Salaam

Thanks for replying.

If same sex marriages were fine then why would the required "man and woman" even be specified within the Quran. Surely it would've been given a less specific meaning then, right?
I'm aware fahissha means "indecent act/s" and not "homosexuality" specifically. The "indecent act/s" the people of Lot were committing may very well have been a sum total of several acts (it's not just mere lewdness but "lewdness to such an extent/in a way none has been committed before&quot However, the line right after it seems to highlight very explicitly that men coming at other men with desire is a transgression. So homosexuality in particular seems like a particularly 'serious' type of lewdness, atleast that's what I'm getting from these verses.

The rest of your "conclusion" is interesting though. I'm no scientist but do know that the "born gay" thing is something that is still contested and that the legendary "gay gene" has yet to be found, though even if it does, that alone doesn't really change my view (I touched upon this earlier when I mentioned people are sometimes born with pedophiliac tendencies, I think you replied by saying that being born gay can't be compared to pedo tendencies - which wasn't my intention at all, my point was that as far as I can tell while there may be tendencies instilled in us there is behaviour and qualities to aspire to that can be taught, these things eventually overriding the tendencies. If that makes sense) This is a topic I feel everyone will have to look into further eventually, my own thoughs on this definitely aren't 100% concrete yet.

Reee

Salam,
just some points hat came into my mind
-What is the problem with homosexuality? Is it the act of it, or the absense of the heterosexual act? The danger for the survival of the humans lies in the absense of the heterosexual act, not in the presense of the homosexual act.
If this is the case, should gays and lesbians be forced to have sex with the opposite sex? What about 3021 It is among His signs that he created spouses for you out of yourselves that you rest wih them and put love and grace among you.
Should this not be valid for all people?

What about people who can't have children for other reasons, e.g. infertility, accidents, they are too old. Should they be allowed to marry or not?
The story of Onan in the Bible/Tora he is condemned not because he satisfied himself, but because he refused to give his semen to the woman he was given to. I think this could be transferred to the Lot case It is the refusal of duties which is condemned. And in the case of homoseuality in general the question is not whether one is gay by birth or by choice, but whether this is an act out of willing disobedience to God's laws or just a search for the peace and calmness promised by God.

unknownuser

Should I quote Hindu and Buddhist scriptures also if you still dont believe?!

Peace Sonny.
Don'bother to do it, I'm already read it from the Quran and Old Testament.
Like Emil says,your biggest fault is you intepreting Quran just in literally/harrafiyah way and you only depending on translation without realizing if all translation is NOT PERFECT.

example
-254. "....so repent to your Maker,and kill yourselves...."
It's bad idea if you tafseer "kill yourself" literally.

-2191. " And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you"
If you tafseer it literally, then you will became a worst murderer

My intepreation of Luth stories already written in page 6, so re read again.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

If only 10%, then why you following Quran alone, since it's only 10% too D
This means you still follow traditional (Sunni-Shia teaching)

Do you think the majority always true
549 ".....and many of the naas/humans are wicked/fasiq.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says " shall not lie with another man as with a woman, it is a toeba "abomination&quot" (Leviticus 1822).

You accept Islam, but still use that Book as source of fiqh.

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!

Because the 10% is the church which understand science.(read about Episcopal dan Presbyterian).
The Vatican also rumored to legalize homoseks.

I'm aware fahissha means "indecent act/s" and not "homosexuality" specifically. The "indecent act/s" the people of Lot were committing may very well have been a sum total of several acts (it's not just mere lewdness but "lewdness to such an extent/in a way none has been committed before&quot However, the line right after it seems to highlight very explicitly that men coming at other men with desire is a transgression. So homosexuality in particular seems like a particularly 'serious' type of lewdness, atleast that's what I'm getting from these verses.

In 780, Luth stated the fahissha commited by Sodom is never commited by any people before.This means that fahissha is not homosexs, cause homoseks already happens before Luth's era.

The born gay is already proved by an psycollogist in my country.
Read in http//gayvision.blog.com/2010/01/30/apakah-gay-bisa-sembuh/
(Google translate it because it's in Indonesian)

Sonny

The Vatican also rumored to legalize homoseks.

Vatican is destroying christianity same as Wahhabism destroying Islam in the Middle East. I mean obelisk in the vatican representing erected penis of egyptian pagan god osiris, and they put cross on the top. Vatican, Wahhabism etc. those stuff has nothing to do with abrahamic religions.

After reading your and some other comments I'm sure that we live in end time's. People who call themself muslims and support satanism like homosexuality are destroying religion that prophets risk their life or died for.
You guys compare Islam to Alistair Crowley Thelema satanic religion which also support homosexuality, sad really sad. I suggest you to convert to his religion if u like and support homosexuals so much.

And dont tell me again that gays are born gay, this is BS made up by zionist media to destroy traditional family and moral values of the people.

Anyone who says that gays are "born gay" directly insults God and His creation. If God really create gay people He would tell us in the scripture. Btw "born gay" is a satanic myth. Everyone who study this will see.

Emil

You raise a very important point.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says " shall not lie with another man as with a woman, it is a toeba "abomination&quot" (Leviticus 1822).

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!

Salam Solomon

Assumption is the mother of all censored

The interesting point is that instead of analysing the Quran brother Sonny is now bringing in other scripture to justify his opinion. Scriptures that seem to be ok with drinking alcohol, incest and the stoning of rape victims. I am sorry my brothers and sisters of the christian and jewish faith, I hold the testaments at a lower level than hadith, they have absolutely no divine authority at all.

Is this how the muslim anti-gay movement works? that when the Quranic "ammo" runs out they bring in "evidence" from other scriptures?

Still waiting for anyone to disagree with me that the story of Lot is allegorical, that it doesnt include homosexuality but a reference to men seeking men in lust, that there are numerous behaviours that makes Allah destroy communities, behaviours that are practiced today in muslim communities and the fact that Allah tells prophet Muhammed, "our" prophet, to forgive and ignore if he should ever encounter a community such as Lot's or Noah's

The_Chimp

Still waiting for anyone to disagree with me that the story of Lot is allegorical, that it doesnt include homosexuality but a reference to men seeking men in lust, that there are numerous behaviours that makes Allah destroy communities, behaviours that are practiced today in muslim communities and the fact that Allah tells prophet Muhammed, "our" prophet, to forgive and ignore if he should ever encounter a community such as Lot's or Noah's

Hi,

I disagree with you. Story of Lot is not allegorical. I have read your past posts, however, your reasons why you think this story is allegorical are not clear.

supportpeacenotwar

Salam

That is very interesting indeed........really interesting.

I come from a country known to "be the least religious in the world". We dance around huge fallos symbols and we still celebrate the winter solstice (although no more human sacrificies). When somebody asks me (and strangely I have been asked numerous times) what is the most muslim country I always answer "my country". They normally look at me strangely but I find it to be true. The first time I read the Quran I was not very close to Allah, wouldnt call myself and atheist but I was closer to that than being a believer.........Anyways time and again I was flabbergasted about the similiraties in the Quran and the laws of my country.
What I am trying to say is that I may have been one of those "pagans" you talk about. I came out of the closet though and proclaimed to be a muslim.....

Salaam Emil,

I actually once was practicing more Pagan/new age religions once, when I was a teenager, so I too was labelled in such a way. I've come across some of the emphasis on the feminine in Pagan practices because of the notion that faiths like Islam can lack it, and I too once felt a little bit like that. Such as the emphasis on He for God, but now I understand that Allah means the Deity, that is not male or female, or masculine or feminine and is instead the Creator of the genderless and the things with gender. The attributes of Allah swt as well are sometimes translated in more masculine terms probably because of a traditionalist mindset, but when you look at them in practice in the Quran, of course there is nothing about masculinity there at all. Just like Allah's attribute an-Nur, the Light, the described as a Light like no other. I find there are some Quranic aspects to Western nations, although I would add that the underlying goals of all countries and pursuit of modern warfare are completely outside the Quran. Although that is the state and government, and can be equally described for all nations, not the people.

In terms of things like seasonal festivals, if we understand it to be appreciating nature and what our Creator has bestowed upon us, I think it makes sense to celebrate and appreciate the season etc as Muslims. Appreciating the natural world and order seems to be part of being a Muslim to me. After all, the rest of creation around us is aligned and in submission to our Creator's design and will. So we are essentially joining them, when we too align ourselves with our Creator's guidance and so on.

Man_of_Faith

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.

It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).

I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.

God bless you

supportpeacenotwar

Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.

It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).

I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

I use He too, when referring to God, so no I am not offended. You are simply doing what is most natural and conventional in English, like you said other languages have different conventions. But thank you for your thoughtfulness.

Emil

Hi,

I disagree with you. Story of Lot is not allegorical. I have read your past posts, however, your reasons why you think this story is allegorical are not clear.

Make you a deal? If you tell me why you feel why they are not allegorical I will tell you why I think they are allegorical. I mean that you should not argue against me but just give your reasons.

Sounds fair?

My reasons are this.

One of the first guidances and one of the very few guidances by Allah to us how to interpet the Quran takes up the issue of literal vs. allegorical.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding

I am not claiming but I am suggesting that this verse must be kept in mind when reading the Quran and ALL verses should be under scrutiny. A verse like 6151 where it states Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you......... is quite clear, it is not to be taken allegorically. It also sets the standard of what a literal verse includes.

The story of Lot is always mentioned together with stories that are clearly allegorical. One example I can think of on top of my head is Noah which (if to be taken literally) means that Noah became 950 years old.

There are also contradictions in the Quran about Lot. If it was to be taken literally the story wouldn't have contradictions (compare 1181 to 37135 where the female not spared is either his wife or an old woman).

Whenever the story of Lot is mentioned it never has a verse beforehand telling prophet Muhammed to preach to the people. Instead it is always a beforehand verse where Allah is giving prophet Muhammed personal advice or there is no mention at all. In other words, there is no direct command from Allah to preach word-for-word that particular surah or verse.

Even if we would take the story of Lot literally it still does not hold enough evidence to forbid homosexuality. It is CLEARLY written that the transgression in question is MEN approaching MEN. It makes absolutely no sense to only forbid male homosexuality and not female. So 50% of the population can be homosexuals?

When comparing the story of Lot to other verses it is clear that Allah could not have destroyed the entire community because 50% of the population is transgressing the boundaries. I do not have the energy to look up the verses but I am sure that you agree with me that Allah would not kill our children for the wrong-doings of their fathers, right?

Emil

In terms of things like seasonal festivals, if we understand it to be appreciating nature and what our Creator has bestowed upon us, I think it makes sense to celebrate and appreciate the season etc as Muslims. Appreciating the natural world and order seems to be part of being a Muslim to me. After all, the rest of creation around us is aligned and in submission to our Creator's design and will. So we are essentially joining them, when we too align ourselves with our Creator's guidance and so on.

I agree with you but tell that to the christians......In my country we celebrate Sankta Lucia, a Spanish(?) nun that lived hundreds of years ago. It just so happened that we celebrate a catholic saint in a protestant country on the very same time the pagans celebrate the winter soltice. I am not much for conspiracy theories but this one hmm hmm hmm looks like the bishop couln't get the mass to stop celebrating so he came up with the brilliant idea to super-impose a christian celebration on top of the pagan celebration.

One of the reasons why I never became christian was because of the masculine oppressive overtone. Instead I become a muslim confused

Farabi

Understanding the quran is also need to understand the previous scripture, it obvious the previous scripture mention about lot story and it clearly stated, those who do homosexuality should be punished to death. I think there is a lot of people who will agree that homosexuality is allowed, but why you must said it in here? This is the community where anti homosexuality. Our community is as free as homosexuality community. Like republican and democratic which is opposed each other.

huruf