Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

Joe_Betik

Salam Man of faith,

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

Cheers!
mohammed noh

The_Chimp

Salam Man of faith,

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

Cheers!
mohammed noh

Problem is he has no expertise or much knowledge of Arabic.

unknownuser

Salaam Joe Betik

The meaning of 'qur-an' depends, methinks, on our understanding of the word 'iqra' (Chapter 96), because they share Radicals (Roots). As such, some people view 'qur-an' as 'reading', when they viewed 'iqra' as the imperative 'read.' But since you proposed that 'qur-an' is 'book', what is 'iqra' then?

However, I agree with you that 'kitab' could (personally it should) be 'message', but i do not see the potential meaning could be 'knowledge' or 'information', as I believe Arabic has other terms for these two English words. I believe 'knowledge' is '3ilm' while 'information' is 'ma3loomat' and we frequently come across these Arabic terms in the Qur-an.

You missunderstood Man of Faith.He never said Quran = message.

He created that arguments, because he against mine intepretation in of Alkitab in 22.
Man of Faith just try to see "Al Kitab" in 22 as message, not "The Book" which it's literal/harafiyah meaning.

Quran = recitation, while iqra is fi'il/verb form of Quran and mean "recite".

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

No, I was not misunderstood, but it was something I have been thinking about for some time. Kitab is not literally book but Message but connotes to source of Knowledge. You see my flows of text and see message fits perfectly whereas it sounds even pathetic in some parts when you use the traditional choices. Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

It was not really to meet Earthdom I began this talk but because I was convinced about the misconception now. Verily look at the verses with new Light and you shall see. Forget dictionaries and only think about coherence and comprehension.

The Chimp can go somewhere else and show himself. Put the face down in some Hadith books instead of fooling around here. I do not care if I only knew one word of Arabic. With God's help even a complete unlettered person could learn the whole Message.

God bless you

The_Chimp

Peace,

No, I was not misunderstood, but it was something I have been thinking about for some time. Kitab is not literally book but Message but connotes to source of Knowledge. You see my flows of text and see message fits perfectly whereas it sounds even pathetic in some parts when you use the traditional choices. Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

It was not really to meet Earthdom I began this talk but because I was convinced about the misconception now. Verily look at the verses with new Light and you shall see. Forget dictionaries and only think about coherence and comprehension.

The Chimp can go somewhere else and show himself. Put the face down in some Hadith books instead of fooling around here. I do not care if I only knew one word of Arabic. With God's help even a complete unlettered person could learn the whole Message.

God bless you

"Kitab is not literally book but Message"

Reference? Evidence?

Nothing . . . just what you invent.

Also Quran is physically book and it is something you read from. Certainly a book can be in verbal form too but it is still book. It is an Arabic Book -) not Arabic Quran, so I doubt it is a proper noun.

Once more - this is completely incorrect . . . and highlights fundamental lack of understanding what a Proper Noun is . . . also higlights your lack of knowledge in Arabic.

Hence - once more - you resort to making things up . . . you do not know what you are talking about.

Man_of_Faith

Reference is God. Peace out.

jhonsonmustafa

Problem is he has no expertise or much knowledge of Arabic.

Peace,

Please Show mercy to others... It disturbs peace.

The_Chimp

Reference is God. Peace out.

And what does that mean?

What does that mean?

That I am right . . .you invented it from your mind . . . and referenced it to God!

Is he sending you "messages" now? How do you know it ain't Satan?

I mean

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1XaNU20II8

Look! Australian Jesus!

Man_of_Faith

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

The_Chimp

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill.

So does the Australian Jesus - in fact his might be stronger . . . the Pope . . . another example. So reading and understanding what the message is . . . that to you is petty? Why?

I thought the WHOLE point is the Quran . . . so why would studying that be petty? I do not get that! I mean that is what it is about.

Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted.

Again - you keep banging on about the message . . . . what message? Who is sending you messages . . .

Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

No we are discussing you. And his tribe were polytheist - yes. But what of it?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message

I do not know what this means.

Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand.

Yes. But somehow I do not think you can recite it by heart.

The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

Again - what does it all mean.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

What extra religious stuff? Learning the Quran is NOT "extra" stuff. It is basic common sense!

I mean how do you live at all . . . is a wonder to me! I did not think one had to make people understand . . . what "learning" is all about!

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

Saying that is no help . . . what god?

Is it the one like Joseph Smith . . .?

Australasian Jesus?

Rashad Khalifah and the number 19?

Elijah Muhammad?

What messages have you been getting?

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

The_Chimp

I discovered about God on my own

I doubt it . . . as it depends - if you grew up in Sunni/Shia Muslim then you would have been indoctrinated. But explain how?

However - whether you believe in God or not is FUNDAMENTAL question . . . and it is BEFORE whether you choose to follow a religion or not. Hence - even those - like me - indoctrinated as kids when adult have the chance to rethink and choose. However - I do not think this is what you are referring to.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

Try not to get like this . . . and I am ASKING you . . . so please explain.

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

But this is just general guff - practically EVERY sane adult knows this . . . in fact irrespective of whether they believe in God or not!

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Once again . . . you make no sense . . . you are unable to explain yourself . . . and I pose a legitimate question . . .

How is your alleged relationship with god any different than that of the Australian Jesus?

Joe_Betik

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Salam Man of Faith,

Please don't be sad. Please calm down, instead. Don't let one person disturb your day, when there are many others who appreciate and welcome what you are doing.

Allow me to quote an earlier post please

...

In fact for some years now I have adopted the opinion that as long as a person refers to God about anything and everything, God will surely guides that person. God will never take that person's faith for granted. Even without that person studying the Q, let alone understands Arabic. So even an illiterate in the North Pole could always ask God, anytime, anywhere, anyhow. God is with us wherever we are.

And the Q that we study was the guide for Muhammad the prophet. It was his guide to becoming into a true servant of God that befits the status of God's 'khalifa' (proxy) in this earthly life. It should be the easier option if we were to study, understand and adhere to the Q. Still we must refer to God for the correct meaning as meant by God. And still we have to empty the cup to rid all types of baggage.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, never ever leave God out of our life equation. Then only will God be the Lord of our comprehension (rabbi al3alameen), the reference, the teacher, the knowledgable, the just, the wise, the compassionate, the understanding, the master at the time of accountability, the supporter, the friend, etc.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605460.msg330680#msg330680

Are you a living proof to my above statement? )

But seriously, guys, when God is the Lord of comprehension in a person's study of the Qur-an, then little knowledge of Arabic might not be any hindrence whatsoever, as the meaning (in the language that person understands) might automatically be revealed upon the person while the person is reading the Arabic text. In other words, while reading the Arabic text, one might just see the meaning (in the language that he/she understands) on the Arabic text itself. And this is also one of the many forms of revelation. I hope this explains.

But, this is just one of the numerous methods that God could employ to make a person fully understand the Qur-an. And we learn about God teaching man in 965 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=5).

In fact, even if a person doesn't know anything about the Qur-an, or even Islam, but the person establishes a correct 'relationship' (salat) with the correct 'God' (Allah), please refer to the hadith on Ibraheem's search for God with logic in Chapter 2, then God will surely provide the person with appropriate guidance.

But why appropriate guidance, you might ask. It depends on what we ask God for.

Any 'ommiy' (one without prior knowledge) could ask questions like "God, who am I? God, where are You? God, am I correct to view this matter like this? God, please guide me to understand this matter correctly." Etc.

But students of the Qur-an like us all here, how many of us ask God for the correct meanings (as meant by God) for certain Arabic words/concepts in the Qur-an, like 'salat' or 'hajj' for example?

In the narratives of past prophets in the Qur-an, we also learn that God's guidance was usually revealed to them on the-need-to-know basis.

So likewise, the same basis is applicable to us too. Meaning, God may or may not reveal everything that we have asked for. Even comprehensions regarding the Chapters or concepts we come across in the Qur-an. Sometimes it is simply a test of patience. Sometimes it is about our level of closeness to God, thus our standing (makam). It might even be due to our carelessness towards past revelations. Or it might be that a revelation might not be appropriate. This is merely my personal comprehensions, but God knows best regarding this matter.

So you see, there is no substitute for 'having God' (apologies for the lack of a better term, and the Malay term is 'bertuhan&#039. Some people may not study, or even heard of, the Qur-an, but they have God in their lives - they are always mindful of God anytime and everytime, anywhere and everywhere. There is every possibility that God may choose to reveal correct guidance to them irrespective of whether they subscribe to the correct or wrong notions about God, or even serve the correct God or the wrong god(s). Past confessions in this forum and elsewhere will attest to the truth of this notion.

Studying the Qur-an does not make a Muslim. Many people study the Qur-an, but they never have God in their lives - they leave God out of the equation, even in their studies of the Qur-an. They thought they could know or understand by themselves as implied in 966-7. (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=6).

So instead of coming closer to God they move further and further away. And instead of becoming peacemakers, they become 'objects of anger' ('almaghdoobi 3alayhim', 17).

So, it is now up to you, Man of Faith, to continue sharing what you have discovered to be the truth to you. I said the truth to you, because sometimes they are really just that, even though I do not rule out any possibility that they could be the truth to us as well.

Please don't ever get distracted by any harsh nor unethical remarks. God be with you, brother!

And as always, this is merely my personal comprehension. It might not necessarily be the truth to anyone here. So be careful with my posts. )

Cheers!
mohammed noh

The_Chimp